New Arena (formerly Prairie Surf)

[BDP]

It would be in our best interests to keep the Cox Convention Center especially since we invested $50 million in renovations from MAPS I; that's more than twice the cost of original construction. The Cox Center (Old Myriad) initially cost voters $23 million when it was built in 1973: Cox Convention Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

$23 million = $126 million in 2013 dollars

So a $50 million renovation is less than half, not more than twice.

[Teo9969]

Something people need to remember:

$100M arenas can go a lot of places throughout our city

$1 Billion+ of high-rise residential/mixed-use/major-corporation office only has a very select area it can go.

We have opportunity costs taking the site either direction (or any direction for that matter, including leaving it as is). There is not a good economic argument for choosing to foot the opportunity costs of building the former (arena) rather than the latter (high-rise).

[OKCisOK4me]

Hold on - you missed a big part. The NEW convention center will cost $450 million when both phases are finished plus whatever we kick in for the hotel. The Cox Arena was not part of MAPS I. So we will have spent over $600 million on a new arena AND a new convention center and for some reason people think we will keep booking events in the 40 year old facility. It isn't going to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cox cost more to maintain than it brings in revenue and that is even going to be more true after the new convention center opens.

Yeah, I also missed inflation. I'm sure construction costs have risen since 1973, lol. Nonetheless, once the new convention center is built, regardless of the $50 million price tag associated with renovating the Cox Center, it needs to go bye bye.

[warreng88]

If we were to see the CCC completely torn down and redone, I would love to see it broken into four quarters with pedestrian only access down Broadway and California. Keep in mind each of these blocks are the size of the Sheraton hotel and Century Center parking garage site. Then, with the super block broken into four quarters, I think we will see a transit expansion on the NE/C, a residential tower on the NW/C, Mystery Office Tower on the SW/C and a lower mixed-use building or hotel on the SE/C. I would imagine they would put the metal poles that come out of the ground on Reno/EK Gaylord and Reno/Robinson to prepare for Thunder Alley at the entrances of either end of California and Broadway. This would make it to where it is pedestrians only during the day, but delivery trucks and emergency vehicles could come in if needed. Just an junior urban planner's two cents...

[warreng88]

Apparently I need to read better. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[Laramie]

At a certain point the Myriad becomes more valuable to the city by not being there. Yes we spent money on it, but you can't just count all that as a loss. We've had that facility for 40 years. We have got our money's worth. It'll be another 10 at least before anyone looks at tearing it down. The Myriad is not an architecturally significant structure. It is mostly blank wall. We aren't tearing down the Civic Center here. .

40 years? Man, how time is flying. Seems like it was only yesterday that I so vividly remember 'opening night' of the Myriad Convention Center and Della Reese blasting out with such a distaff voice as we opened the doors to the center.

Maybe in ten years we could use that space to connect to the Chesapeake Energy Arena and complement the new Convention Center & Hotel proposed west of the Peake.

[Larry OKC]

The money spent on the Myriad in MAPS I wasn't to make a state of the art of facility capable of carrying the city into the future. It was spent to bring the facility up to minimum standards for the time. …

Unfortunately, at one of the Chamber's MAPS 3 Luncheons, the guest speaker indicated that what we are building with (not sure if it was just Phase 1 or 1 & 2) will just barely meet their current needs (much less what those needs will be once it gets built)…

[Just the facts]

According to the snippets of the Chamber study that have been made available, the MAPS III convention center would be a failure without the convention hotel and phase II. That is why OKC is on the hook to build all 3.

[Plutonic Panda]

They need to just build it and do it right. If the entire thing ends up costing around 600 million, I would be fine with it, just as long as they do a good job with it and build it last, the building itself and our future needs.

[kevinpate]

... That is why OKC is on the hook to build all 3.

Or pull a Shadid streetcar style push and question if the CC ought to not happen, if even it was on the list of projects. Not advocating that, but hey, it one item can be rethought, then every item can be rethought.

[Laramie]

When the money has been collected to start building the new convention center we need to make sure that the land is available to make way for the anchor 600-plus room hotel. We really need a hotel which will accommodate anywhere from 800 to 1200 rooms. Go ahead and start construction on the convention center. If we want to become a strong Tier II convention city to compete with cities like Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, Milwaukee, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Albany, Albuquerque... ...we have got to have the hotels and an anchor hotel to accommodate large gathering where one large convention would want to house all of their conventioneers in one setting. We have been seeing a number of smaller hotels going up in Oklahoma City lately--those with less than 300-rooms. We have the potential to far exceed our conservative expectations. This excerpt came from an article in Connect Meetings Intelligence:

"Oklahoma City is one destination that is taking full advantage of its second-tier designation. The city’s CVB recently reported that it exceeded its original targeted bookings for fiscal 2010 by 7 percent with a total of 378,377 room nights. Separately, a StarCite study noted that Oklahoma City recently saw an 81 percent year-over-year increase in the number of planner requests for proposal for conventions and meetings.

“Second-tier cities may not be as glamorous as first-tier cities, but that often works in our favor during these times when many organizations have to be careful about the perception of where they’re holding meetings and events,” says Elizabeth Buckley Richardson, director of convention sales and services for the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau."--Second Tier Cities

Link: Second-Tier Cities | Connect Meetings

Top 25 Convention Cities:

Convention Centers - Top 25 Sites and "Second-Tier" Convention Cities

[Larry OKC]

... "Oklahoma City is one destination that is taking full advantage of its second-tier designation. The city’s CVB recently reported that it exceeded its original targeted bookings for fiscal 2010 by 7 percent with a total of 378,377 room nights. Separately, a StarCite study noted that Oklahoma City recently saw an 81 percent year-over-year increase in the number of planner requests for proposal for conventions and meetings.

“Second-tier cities may not be as glamorous as first-tier cities, but that often works in our favor during these times when many organizations have to be careful about the perception of where they’re holding meetings and events,” says Elizabeth Buckley Richardson, director of convention sales and services for the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau."--Second Tier Cities

Link: Second-Tier Cities | Connect Meetings

Top 25 Convention Cities:

Convention Centers - Top 25 Sites and "Second-Tier" Convention Cities

Interesting…thought we were trying to BECOME a Tier 2 city with the new convention center, this article makes it should like we already are…that aside, the quote about increased booking etc seems to be in direct contradiction to what the Chamber said here (even when pre-vote they had articles indicating bookings etc were up):
New Cox Convention Center is priority for Oklahoma City, study finds | News OK

"It is time for us to make an investment in this industry or recognize that we are slowly going out of business as far as conventions are concerned.” - David Thompson, chamber chairman (March 11, 2009)

[PhiAlpha]

Interesting…thought we were trying to BECOME a Tier 2 city with the new convention center, this article makes it should like we already are…that aside, the quote about increased booking etc seems to be in direct contradiction to what the Chamber said here (even when pre-vote they had articles indicating bookings etc were up):
New Cox Convention Center is priority for Oklahoma City, study finds | News OK

If you can look at the Cox Convention Center and honestly come away thinking that it is adequate for a city of our size or will be adequate for the next 20 + years, you either don't get out much or need to get your vision checked.

[Larry OKC]

PhiAlpha: I didn't say anything about it being inadequate now or 20 years from now. The point was the Chamber folks were misleading about their claims in their zeal to get it passed. Also, you seem to have missed the point that the new one we are building doesn't meet current needs much less when it gets built. So we are right back where we started from and spent at least $250 to $400 million (maybe more) to do it.

No doubt it is getting expensive and since 2/3 of the events are for local functions I seriously doubt the revenue generated from the other 1/3 covers the cost of construction - however - there is nothing wrong with having nice things for the locals, I just wish they would sell it as a quality of life facility and not a revenue generator because most convention centers require operation subsidies and never make back the construction cost (even when they use the pie in the sky indirect spending from out-of-town visitors).

Thats exactly what they did when they were pushing to get it pushed up in the timeline...the Chamber opinion piece that ran in the Oklahoman talked about it being the City's living room (or something like that)...that is where it was also brought up that 2/3 of the C.C. business is local and only 1/3 is not...which makes the revenue projections of increasing 3-fold (300%) highly unlikely. You already have and are most likely going to keep the vast majority of the local events so to get that 3 fold increase, quick-n-dirty math would indicate out of area business if going to have to increase 9-fold (900%). I don't think the Chamber even believes that is going to happen...LOL

Then they also mentioned that if the Convention Center gets moved up in the timeline that as all that extra revenue poured in, it would mean more money for those MAPS 3 projects that followed. Only problem is, even being pushed up in the timeline, the C.C. isn't scheduled to open until AFTER the MAPS 3 tax has ended...

$23 million = $126 million in 2013 dollars

So a $50 million renovation is less than half, not more than twice.

Interesting spin...maybe you should work for the Chamber?

[Laramie]

They need to just build it and do it right. If the entire thing ends up costing around 600 million, I would be fine with it, just as long as they do a good job with it and build it last, the building itself and our future needs.

Totally agree. Regardless of what we do, we need to do a good job with it and build it to last. Structures like Civic Center Music Hall are still standing--the interior and the facade aren't anything to marvel about; it's our history where many of us went to see the circus, All College Basketball Tournament, wrestling entertainment, concerts, symphony, church gatherings and more. This grand ole lady still stands. When visiting cities like Fort Worth, Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta and Houston to name a few, you will see the old blended in with the new. In Fort Worth, the old Cowtown Coliseum(functional) still stands despite the building of Will Rogers Coliseum Complex and the Tarrant County Convention Center.

Look at the structures we have built over the years, Fairgrounds Arena, Myriad, Chesapeake Energy Arena; can these structures still be used and become functional parts of our community?

Oklahoma City destroyed much of its historical foundation in favor of a more modernized look. Tourists expect to see our history. Sure, you won't see the old TP indian reservations with that Tsa-La-Gi flavor.

Whatever we decide to do, let's do it right. We can pay the cost now or we can pay the costs with interest later.

[Plutonic Panda]

Totally agree. Regardless of what we do, we need to do a good job with it and build it to last. Structures like Civic Center Music Hall are still standing--the interior and the facade aren't anything to marvel about; it's our history where many of us went to see the circus, All College Basketball Tournament, wrestling entertainment, concerts, symphony, church gatherings and more. This grand ole lady still stands. When visiting cities like Fort Worth, Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta and Houston to name a few, you will see the old blended in with the new. In Fort Worth, the old Cowtown Coliseum(functional) still stands despite the building of Will Rogers Coliseum Complex and the Tarrant County Convention Center.

Look at the structures we have built over the years, Fairgrounds Arena, Myriad, Chesapeake Energy Arena; can these structures still be used and become functional parts of our community?

Oklahoma City destroyed much of its historical foundation in favor of a more modernized look. Tourists expect to see our history. Sure, you won't see the old TP indian reservations with that Tsa-La-Gi flavor.

Whatever we decide to do, let's do it right. We can pay the cost now or we can pay the costs with interest later.

Great post!

[bchris02]

So considering the new convention center/hotel goes forward as planned, should we keep the Cox Center around or get rid of it?

[Plutonic Panda]

Build something like this?

[Pete]

Yep, time for it to go, especially since the new Santa Fe Station / intermodal hub will soon start work and become an important gateway.

And as everything gets built up around the Myriad Gardens, this concrete monstrosity looms like the backside of a warehouse.

Move hockey to the Peake and be done with this thing.

[bchris02]

I like Plutonic Panda's ideas above. The second one especially seems pretty realistic for OKC. A true mixed use town center/village with retail and 4-5 floors of apartments with a central courtyard would be perfect.

[Merman]

you could take Plutonic's second picture and extend the canal right to the MG's.

[Teo9969]

So here's the real question:

What can we do to get out ahead of any future project on this site to start advocating what it is exactly that we want to see developed for the most important 4 blocks in the city?

I've argued several times that these 4 blocks alone could take this from a Tier III city to a Tier II city if redeveloped well. But I think this is going to have to be a special project wherein the City establishes a common space in the center of the 4 lots, with a line of sight from Santa Fe to the Crystal Bridge in the MBG (and a mid-block cross-walk on both EK Gaylord and Harvey), but then puts out somewhere between 5 and 15 RFPs for the rest of the 4 lots.

This should be the ultimate mixed-use hub in the city: Dining, public space, maybe a small cinema, residential, office, maybe even a grocery store/drug store on one of the corners closest to the Santa Fe Station.

In the Mystery Tower thread I had posted this as model of development that we should absolutely use as a model to work from. It shares some of the same principles as PluPan's earlier post that was relatively well received, but without the cars (which really have no business in this lot).

Sony Center:

[Pete]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Cox Center currently has about 1,000 parking spaces and they are located at an area of very critical need.

So, any new development would have to include much more parking -- especially since the City owns the property.

I love all these conceptual plans (like the recent one by Populous) but they can only serve as the broadest guidelines because in the end, it's the private developers (and their perception of the market) that will drive what actually built.

Probably the only firm area of influence by the City is to restore the street grid and even keep the alleys open, and of course those in themselves would be massive improvements.

[Teo9969]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Cox Center currently has about 1,000 parking spaces and they are located at an area of very critical need.

So, any new development would have to include much more parking -- especially since the City owns the property.

The need for parking at this specific spot unequivocally pales in comparison to the need for OKC to have a heart in the city. Downtown not a heart, it's the whole torso and all composite parts, but there's nowhere in downtown that acts as the most important organ, where activity originates and disperses. We'd all agree that that heart, healthy as the rest of the organs and body are, is not particularly healthy, this is really our chance at revitalizing the heart.

Neighborhoods are great, and they make living in the city fantastic…but they are unable to create a singular image that people think of when they think of OKC. Why pass up an opportunity to create that for…parking??? to placate a sports franchise???

I'm not saying parking should be out the window, but if it limits the ability to build an iconic piece of architecture, or how exactly we lay out the buildings, then we've missed the point. Especially when we can build the parking in other parts of the city before we even demo the Cox. And during the demo of the Cox, what are they going to do about those 1000 spaces anyway?

I'd like to eliminate parking from the conversation as soon as possible because it's a horrible excuse to not create a world-renowned space at the literal center of our city.

I love all these conceptual plans (like the recent one by Populous) but they can only serve as the broadest guidelines because in the end, it's the private developers (and their perception of the market) that will drive what actually built.

Probably the only firm area of influence by the City is to restore the street grid and even keep the alleys open, and of course those in themselves would be massive improvements.

How can the city's position be weak? They have far more power than just being able to restore the street grid, they should focus on creating literally just a space in the middle that is public property, with something programmatically significant (and hopefully world-class), that can interact with the lots that they put RFPs out for. They can put whatever restrictions on those RFPs that they need, and if they need to wait 3 to 5 years before they sell a lot (or set of lots) to a developer so that we get the right development, then they can. Could the RFP not say "building must be at least 30 stories" or "building must be residential" or "building must contain entertainment options". The city can be as specific as they want, and if they don't and they sell to someone who puts something less than world-class on this property, we've lost our only opportunity as citizens to impact this city for the *best*.

I'd likely sell out for good development now instead of great development later on literally any other block in the entire city, but getting these 4 correct, is likely the very most important thing we will do over the next 30 to 50 years for the future of this city.

[PhiAlpha]

The need for parking at this specific spot unequivocally pales in comparison to the need for OKC to have a heart in the city. Downtown not a heart, it's the whole torso and all composite parts, but there's nowhere in downtown that acts as the most important organ, where activity originates and disperses. We'd all agree that that heart, healthy as the rest of the organs and body are, is not particularly healthy, this is really our chance at revitalizing the heart.

Neighborhoods are great, and they make living in the city fantastic…but they are unable to create a singular image that people think of when they think of OKC. Why pass up an opportunity to create that for…parking??? to placate a sports franchise???

I'm not saying parking should be out the window, but if it limits the ability to build an iconic piece of architecture, or how exactly we lay out the buildings, then we've missed the point. Especially when we can build the parking in other parts of the city before we even demo the Cox. And during the demo of the Cox, what are they going to do about those 1000 spaces anyway?

I'd like to eliminate parking from the conversation as soon as possible because it's a horrible excuse to not create a world-renowned space at the literal center of our city.



How can the city's position be weak? They have far more power than just being able to restore the street grid, they should focus on creating literally just a space in the middle that is public property, with something programmatically significant (and hopefully world-class), that can interact with the lots that they put RFPs out for. They can put whatever restrictions on those RFPs that they need, and if they need to wait 3 to 5 years before they sell a lot (or set of lots) to a developer so that we get the right development, then they can. Could the RFP not say "building must be at least 30 stories" or "building must be residential" or "building must contain entertainment options". The city can be as specific as they want, and if they don't and they sell to someone who puts something less than world-class on this property, we've lost our only opportunity as citizens to impact this city for the *best*.

I'd likely sell out for good development now instead of great development later on literally any other block in the entire city, but getting these 4 correct, is likely the very most important thing we will do over the next 30 to 50 years for the future of this city.

I agree with this completely. The Sundance Square plaza event space in Fort Worth or the 16th St. Mall in Denver are good examples of having a heart or central gathering place in the core of a city. The canal could be something like that (or at least part of it) if it was better utilized or extended into whatever becomes of the Cox block.