Electric Vehicles

[Plutonic Panda]

No that’s specifically why I stated I think the Taycan is one of the best cars I’ve ever driven. I just can’t afford one atm or else I’d be all over it.

[TheTravellers]

Such things as handling and driver engagement can easily be accomplished in an electric car.

A car being 'soulless' has much more to do with other technologies like drive-by-wire and car manufacturers that don't compensate for the detached feeling....

Yep, there are various types of traction/whatever control, plus a few other handling modes, and you can pretty much switch it all off in the MINI if you want. Need to try all the options out, was researching how to drive it on snow/ice (have to hit a few switches first) different way of thinking, but at least they give you options.

[Jersey Boss]

As I stated before, my MINI's battery is supposed to last ~21 years, it's based on an older style that was used in the i3, haven't actually looked up yet when they started using it to see how long it's lasted so far (I've got another 20.5 years to go before I have anecdotal evidence of my own).

You got lucky with your Lexus, my 2007 Honda Civic had probably a dozen class-action suits and recalls, plus all kinds of little things that broke. But there are *always* oil, coolant, brake, transmission fluid additions/changes for *any* ICE vehicle, not to mention brake pad replacement (or disc resurfacing/replacement). Wife has had to have her ignition coils replaced (2003 Honda), so there are those odd things that happen too. My MINI's maintenance is *literally* add coolant and windshield washer fluid if low - that's it.

As far as stressing out over charging on long trips, there are plenty of level 3 chargers along the interstate system so that you really don't have to stress. Also, apps (not just Tesla's) that tell you where chargers are located, distance to each, etc. let you plan your trip, taking that into consideration.

As far as resale value, I drive all my cars until the wheels fall off (or they get totaled, as has happened twice, neither of them was my fault ), so I'll probably drive the MINI until it dies. Plan on taking it to Dallas to see Roxy Music in Sep, and already know where the chargers are (the MINI has a range of only about 120 miles, so I have to charge more often than most).

In the interest of accuracy you can't compare the build quality of a Lexus to Civic and claim "you got lucky".

[baralheia]

Oil changes are less than $100 / year and I've never had any other type of maintenance other than tires and brakes (which would also have to be maintained on an electric car) in 19 years.

I've done the math. At this point in time, a purely electric car would be far more expensive for me, especially when you consider the purchase price premium vs an ICE car and the massive hit you take at resale.

I tend to keep my cars for a long time, and in my personal situation I am just going to continue to drive my almost free current car and wait for things to evolve a bit more.

I would give it stronger consideration if I had a second car.

Wait, so you've never changed your engine air filter? Cleaned/replaced the AC filter? Flushed your brake system, transmission fluid, or engine coolant? Inspected/replaced drive belts, hoses, exhaust components, suspension components, etc? Checked/adjusted alignment? All things on the required service schedule for your vehicle in your owner's manual? These are all critical components of your vehicle to keep it running in top condition and all have finite lifespans. Most brake fluid is hygroscopic and will slowly absorb moisture from the air (which can cause corrosion and leaks within your braking system - Lexus recommends changing it every 36mo/30k miles), engine coolant contains corrosion inhibitors that degrade with time and temperature (also causing corrosion and leaks within your engine cooling and cabin heating systems - Lexus recommends changing it every 120mo/100k miles), and transmission fluid contains friction modifiers and corrosion inhibitors that also degrade with use/time/temperature (increasing wear on critical internal components that lead to poor performance and failure - Lexus recommends changing it every 60mo/50k miles) - just to name a few examples. If these regular maintenance items are not performed, you set yourself up for catastrophic failure - and I think you're lucky that you haven't yet experienced one yet.

Though truthfully, after typing the above then reading through the rest of the thread, I think you likely have done most or all of these routine maintenance services and just forgot to consider them as "maintenance" - since you did mention air filters at one point, and that you're on your 4th set of brake pads now. And since you're a car guy, you probably already knew about the service intervals and what goes wrong with fluids, but I'm going to leave it in my reply for anyone else reading who may be unaware.

Many of these routine maintenance items simply aren't required anymore - or have a far longer service life in electric vehicles. Brake pads, for instance, are generally expected to last at least 100k miles in EVs - and depending on your vehicle and driving habits, they can last much longer than that. There are multiple reports from Japan of early Toyota Prius and Nissan Leaf models being used as taxis, racking up well over 300k miles and still using the factory-installed brake pads and rotors. Some EV owners actually complain that their rotors actually become rusty and unsightly due to the lack of use, with regenerative braking providing the bulk of the effort to slow the vehicle down. In addition, since there's been question about battery life... for fully electric vehicles, batteries are generally expected to last up to 200k miles of use - up to 15 years - or more. To my knowledge all are warranted for a minimum of 100k miles or 8 years of service life by federal law.

[Pete]

Wait, so you've never changed your engine air filter? Cleaned/replaced the AC filter? Flushed your brake system, transmission fluid, or engine coolant? Inspected/replaced drive belts, hoses, exhaust components, suspension components, etc? Checked/adjusted alignment? All things on the required service schedule for your vehicle in your owner's manual?

I replace my own air filters and you can buy them for a few bucks each.

Had the brake system flushed as part of a brake job. Had the coolant flushed a couple of times.

I could show you my entire maintenance spreadsheet which I've kept since the day I bought it. It still adds up to next to nothing when averaged over 19 years. I *just* had the rotors machined at over 150,000 miles.


Most of those things you mentioned would still be required by an electric car. And you can be 100% certain you'd have to fully replace all the batteries over that same time span, and probably more than once.


Look, I'm all for electric vehicles and I'm sure I'll buy one in a few years. But trying to justify it by cherry-picking a few relatively inexpensive maintenance items while ignoring things on the other side of the equation like the purchase premium, a home charger, incredible depreciation, and battery replacement isn't going to convince anyone who knows about cars.

There are lots of other good reasons to buy one.

[Jersey Boss]

What I have gathered from this conversation, cities giving 1200 credit for an e-bike would make sense for many.

[Midtowner]

Yeah this is the energy density problem renewables have.

There is no zero sum, everything in life has trade offs. The annoying thing (as an O&G/construction guy) about the greenies, is they don't seem to believe that or care.

The amount of land and raw materials it takes to generate the same power a nat gas or nuclear power plant can, renewables is exponentially greater needs land wise.

While renewables will continue to grow, this debate is coming soon. What really is the best use of farmland in Kansas? Growing food and running the electricity via nat gas plants OR covering it with wind and solar? Which shreds birds and causes erosion and soil degradation (solar).

Society is 9 meals away from total collapse.

I did my homework with rooftop solar. The going carbon-neutral aspect of it wasn't my motivator. It was pure dollars and cents, and when I purchase the EV, I won't be paying any more than I pay right now to power my vehicle. The panels I have are guaranteed to produce at 85% efficiency for 25 years at which point, I mean.. who knows how much more advanced solar will be by then. I'll hopefully be able to throw up some new panels on the existing mounts, probably have to replace microinverters too.

I'm lucky enough to have a lot of roof space and a lot of South and West facing roof which gets good sun.

As far as the greenie arguments, solar panels neutralize their carbon footprint after 2-3 years of use, and given they often have a 30+ year life, that seems to be a pretty good tradeoff.

There should be at least equal government incentives to suburban rooftop solar as there are to natural gas plant builds. Of course we'll continue to need natural gas and coal to supplement the grid whenever it's a hot, cloudy day, or even for when a big cloud floats over the city, though there are solar panels in development which produce energy in darker and darker conditions.

The great thing about rooftop solar is that it requires zero additional land use.

[TheTravellers]

In the interest of accuracy you can't compare the build quality of a Lexus to Civic and claim "you got lucky".

Well, he clarified later that it was one full brake job and 2 sets of pads in 19 years, which is reasonable. Is it usual for a Lexus to have nothing wrong with it at all that needed repair in 19 years (not sure how many miles in those 19 years, that's more telling than age, usually)?

[Pete]

Well, he clarified later that it was one full brake job and 2 sets of pads in 19 years, which is reasonable. Is it usual for a Lexus to have nothing wrong with it at all that needed repair in 19 years (not sure how many miles in those 19 years, that's more telling than age, usually)?

180,000 miles.

I had another one before it that I kept for well over 100K miles until some idiot ran into me and totaled it. I never had a full brake job on that car and there was no other maintenance other than tires and oil changes.

And before that, I had an Acura that was pretty much the same.

[BoulderSooner]

180,000 miles.

I had another one before it that I kept for well over 100K miles until some idiot ran into me and totaled it. I never had a full brake job on that car and there was no other maintenance other than tires and oil changes.

And before that, I had an Acura that was pretty much the same.

i hit 300k on my last Tahoe and i am over 200 on this one ... minimal maintenance for both and for our family having a smaller vehicle is not preferred

[jccouger]

Maybe I'm jaded by having mostly older vehicles my whole life but I've had to replace a large assortment of alternators, starters, crankshaft sensors, timing belts, water pumps, pulleys, tensioners, gaskets, radiators, hoses, spark plugs & filters, ect...

So much maintenance I'm sick of it lol

[TheTravellers]

180,000 miles.

I had another one before it that I kept for well over 100K miles until some idiot ran into me and totaled it. I never had a full brake job on that car and there was no other maintenance other than tires and oil changes.

And before that, I had an Acura that was pretty much the same.

Wife's 2003 Honda is about the same, but she had to replace the timing belt and water pump (surprised you haven't had to do that at 180K miles), and then again when it broke again (found out the ***holes used a counterfeit water pump (but that service doesn't really count )), and ignition coils in addition to standard maintenance - some Hondas are of decent build quality (the generation that included my 2007 was notorious for being one of the worst generations).

[catch22]

His Lexus probably uses a timing chain, as do most larger vehicles. Those typically never go bad.

But I agree, his luck with vehicles is great. But I think his experience is more of a statistical outlier - I think most people do have a larger maintenance burden often without the luxury of buying new. 2 or 3 owner cars can be a bit of a hassle; but it’s usually what most of us can afford up front.

[Pete]

I buy all my cars new, am very meticulous and my vehicles are always garaged, even when I was working in an office (apart from the short stint at the Gazette at 36th & Shartel).

Starting with my first new car (an Audi 4000 in 1982) I've had almost zero repair issues.


I do want to give Lexus credit. When my current car was well out of warranty, it developed a sizeable crack in the dash and that is the sort of thing I cannot stand. I checked into getting it fixed but it was crazy expensive. After learning this was a common problem in my model, Lexus soon contacted owners and offered to fix the problem for free. I made an appointment and they did a full dash replacement and didn't charge me a dime, and this was in my 10th year of ownership. To this day, the interior still looks new; so does the exterior for that matter. So, very easy just to keep it because it is as close to free to own as any car ever will be.

It was the same for my previous Lexus (until totaled) and the Acura before it.

I *just* had the timing belt replaced out of an abundance of caution but when the mechanic showed me the original, it was still in excellent condition and I could have easily kept going without that precautionary move at around 175K miles.

[FighttheGoodFight]

There are outliers but in general if you do the maintenance in the book when it says to you will have a car that lasts. Any new car I have bought I do it by the book. I have never had a major car issue. I have owned Lexus, Subaru and Mazda. All have performed great for me.

That being said, here in the next five years we are replacing one of our ICE cars with an EV. My wife drives very few miles so it makes sense for our household. So far the Mach-E has my eye but I am sure there will be a ton of new models in 5 years. If you are a city only driver I think EV makes sense. You can surely make them work on long trips, with Tesla being the best right now with their large charging network.

[GaryOKC6]

I have a good friend who has several very high end cars but loves his 1999 Toyota Land Cruiser. He has 600000 miles on it and original engine and transmission. He follows the factory maintenance schedule religiously.

[Pete]

Car and Driver just published a comprehensive review of owning a Tesla 3 for 2 years.

What they have to say about maintenance and efficiency is very interesting:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

[FighttheGoodFight]

Car and Driver just published a comprehensive review of owning a Tesla 3 for 2 years.

What they have to say about maintenance and efficiency is very interesting:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

Pretty standard. Lube the breaks in salty road areas and the tires will wear much faster on EVs because of the weight.

[Pete]

^

Also good info about battery degradation, the effect of cold temps, and the actual cost of charging.

[TheTravellers]

Car and Driver just published a comprehensive review of owning a Tesla 3 for 2 years.

What they have to say about maintenance and efficiency is very interesting:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

Some of this appears to be Tesla-specific. Nobody told me the MINI's brake calipers need to be lubricated (but then again, they don't lay down massive salt during the winter here), and the MINI's battery is specifically designed to not be discharged to zero or charged to 100%, it's something like 5 - 95%.

[Snowman]

Some of this appears to be Tesla-specific. Nobody told me the MINI's brake calipers need to be lubricated (but then again, they don't lay down massive salt during the winter here), and the MINI's battery is specifically designed to not be discharged to zero or charged to 100%, it's something like 5 - 95%.

It gets pretty battery specific, I was recently reading about Tesla shifting in the last year to a different battery chemistry on most models that saves cost but has somewhat less energy density, though also does not have the same issue with it being optimal keeping the battery between 20%-80% charge and theoretically should not degrade as much per charge cycles.

[April in the Plaza]

I'll admit the charging seems dirt cheap right now, but I am afraid we'll, at some point, see residential power prices increase by a factor of 4 or 5. These utilities know that folks can pay $75 for a tank of gas. Why would they let you charge your Tesla for $5? I think they'll figure out some ways to capitalize on that delta.

[Midtowner]

I'll admit the charging seems dirt cheap right now, but I am afraid we'll, at some point, see residential power prices increase by a factor of 4 or 5. These utilities know that folks can pay $75 for a tank of gas. Why would they let you charge your Tesla for $5? I think they'll figure out some ways to capitalize on that delta.

They'd have to be able to distinguish between the power going to charging and the power going for everything else. I don't see how they could account for that. Especially when so many of us are producing our own power. Even if they required a meter for power going to the car, I could put that on an entirely different meter. I imagine governments are going to start to figure out ways to tax EVs, and it's only right. EVs on the whole are heavier and cause more wear and tear than ICE cars. I'd probably look to pay a mileage fee or some sort of extra annual fee.

[TheTravellers]

They'd have to be able to distinguish between the power going to charging and the power going for everything else. I don't see how they could account for that. Especially when so many of us are producing our own power. Even if they required a meter for power going to the car, I could put that on an entirely different meter. I imagine governments are going to start to figure out ways to tax EVs, and it's only right. EVs on the whole are heavier and cause more wear and tear than ICE cars. I'd probably look to pay a mileage fee or some sort of extra annual fee.

There was an extra fee when I registered my MINI SE here last month (Full Electric Vehicle - $110).

[shawnw]

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...68#post1202068