Uncommon Ground Park (2nd & Coltrane)

[April in the Plaza]

Without getting too into politics, I'm also a little skeptical of some of this "outrage" and the motivations. There's been a rather... unsavory political movement in Edmond over the past few years and they've been trying to get their folks on the council and into the mayor's seat. They're the "Keep Edmond, Edmond" crowd, and the same ones that tried to block the new YMCA/Library, who led the efforts blocking the Spring Creek development, and are part of the "Stand Up for America" crowd with Old Ranger who shows up to bitch about DEI efforts and covid protocols at the council meetings. They've been pushing this narrative that Mayor Davis is some sort of dictator (like the mayor has any sort of real power outside of being another council seat) and their new tactic is to complain about "transparency". Even if there are valid concerns about that, when folks start attacking and referencing the same complaints as the "Lion's Den" jerks I pretty much assume they're part of the same effort.

Agreed. There are far too many Big League Karens ("BLKs") in Edmond fully intent on swinging their wide hips around -- especially when it comes to any mention of the "A" word.

So it is no small surprise that you see the developers taking their talents and capital to OKC proper or Edmond adjacent suburbs (see, e.g., the developments offsetting Rose Creek to the North and South). Way less hoops to jump through over there, in my experience.

[Midtowner]

Since I have not kept up with Edmond politics, here is hoping Edmond can move into a 21st century mode and not be so anti development and full of NIMBYS! Why would people object to a new YMCA/Library and a new city hall.

That particular bunch is a very vocal minority. They've run their own candidates for city council, mayor, and school board. All of them lost.

They tried to shut down the YMCA/library at the ballot box... failed.

They then tried to gather signatures for an initiative petition--failed again.

OTOH, developers who want to bring in low income housing to a place where people have moved to in order to get out of OKCPS are probably going to have a hard time. If you want to come to Edmond and build single family homes on larger lots, you're not going to likely have a problem.

[onthestrip]

That particular bunch is a very vocal minority. They've run their own candidates for city council, mayor, and school board. All of them lost.

They tried to shut down the YMCA/library at the ballot box... failed.

They then tried to gather signatures for an initiative petition--failed again.

OTOH, developers who want to bring in low income housing to a place where people have moved to in order to get out of OKCPS are probably going to have a hard time. If you want to come to Edmond and build single family homes on larger lots, you're not going to likely have a problem.

No one has proposed any low income housing. A new apartment complex is not low income housing. The high costs of construction right now make any new apartment complex not low income housing because you have to charge well over $1,000 for a one bedroom unit just to make the numbers work.

[Plutonic Panda]

That particular bunch is a very vocal minority. They've run their own candidates for city council, mayor, and school board. All of them lost.

They tried to shut down the YMCA/library at the ballot box... failed.

They then tried to gather signatures for an initiative petition--failed again.

OTOH, developers who want to bring in low income housing to a place where people have moved to in order to get out of OKCPS are probably going to have a hard time. If you want to come to Edmond and build single family homes on larger lots, you're not going to likely have a problem.

Pretty sure they defeated the Shoppes at Spring Creek, ran out 18 on Fink, and helped vote down 3 different apartment complexes, and vocalized opposition for the Coffee Creek neighborhood plan to redevelop the golf course and add commercial even though they didn’t have any interest in it other than just being NIMBYs.

Good thing their influence seems to be waning.

[Midtowner]

No one has proposed any low income housing. A new apartment complex is not low income housing. The high costs of construction right now make any new apartment complex not low income housing because you have to charge well over $1,000 for a one bedroom unit just to make the numbers work.

New apartment complexes are going to be looked at as low income housing. While you're not developing it for that purpose, in 20 years, that's pretty much what it's going to be. And in 20 years, the developer and even the original owner are going to be long gone while the community gets to deal with the mess.

Or maybe not.. maybe the apartments are well kept and that never happens, but no one is going to want to take that chance with their own property and their kids' schools.

[dankrutka]

Or maybe not.. maybe the apartments are well kept and that never happens, but no one is going to want to take that chance with their own property and their kids' schools.

What chance are they taking exactly by being around people from a different socioeconomic class? This is just coded classism and racism. It was exactly the same when I taught in Edmond. Some fellow teachers spouted this garbage about children they were tasked with educating.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^ yep

[Midtowner]

What chance are they taking exactly by being around people from a different socioeconomic class? This is just coded classism and racism. It was exactly the same when I taught in Edmond. Some fellow teachers spouted this garbage about children they were tasked with educating.

It's all cute and everything to be a social justice warrior when you don't have any skin in the game. At our previous home, our assigned elementary was Wiley Post Elementary. 20 years ago, this was a Blue Ribbon School. The mayor graduated from Wiley Post. Then came the apartments, probably all nice when they were built, but most are now Section 8. According to a friend of mine in the admin at PC Schools, Wiley Post is frequently on lock down now because of shootings in the adjoining Section 8/low income apartments. If the state was still handing out letter grades, it would receive an F. Wiley Post received on overall score of 36% compared to Chisholm, where our kid goes now, which received a 95%.

And it's not really a "chance." Pretty much every formerly "nice" apartment complex converts to low income housing towards the end of its lifespan. Investors will unload apartments after 20 years because that's the depreciation life of a commercial residential property. The people who buy those properties do not by and large have a wonderful reputation for running high class operations.

And classism? Nah, just a healthy appreciation of statistics. Children who suffer from financial insecurity are going to tend to have higher ACES scores, which in an overcrowded system like Edmond, that means that my child's teachers would be spending the majority of their time dealing with IEPs and 504s which tend to be much more significant in lower income communities. It's just math.

And again, while these apartments might be really nice right now--and I'll bet many of these renters will be spending more on rent than I do on my mortgage, apartment buildings fully depreciate in 20 years and are generally not built to last. In 20 years, my own neighborhood will be like my old neighborhood--there'll be an aging population, not very many kids, and a failing public school in the neighborhood, property crime will be on the rise and it will impact the desirability of the neighborhood. My previous HOA built a 14 foot stockade fence across the road leading into the apartments next door and that pretty much fixed the property crimes issue. From the site plans I've seen, that's not really going to be an option. Wellington Park has a playground and walking trails, and the HOA doesn't allow privacy fences, so I imagine that'll be just fine after the apartments convert to low income housing.

And it's ethically different. If you're a public school teacher, you are ethically bound to teach the kids who show up. If you're a public school parent or homeowner, your duty is to your own student and your own property values.

Of course since you're not a hypocrite or anything, I 100% expect that should you ever have children, you will move into the lowest performing school district and have them attend the lowest performing school.

--Y'know.. because equity... and hey, you'll probably save a ton of money.

[Plutonic Panda]

Here’s Midtowner again on the Edmond forums ensuring any accusation of racism in Edmond is shown to be nothing but moot with a long drawn out ridiculous post with nothing but ramblings.

[Midtowner]

Here’s Midtowner again on the Edmond forums ensuring any accusation of racism in Edmond is shown to be nothing but moot with a long drawn out ridiculous post with nothing but ramblings.

And I'm sure you went to John Marshal? Capitol Hill? Or a highly diverse school like Deer Creek?

Plan on sending your children to a TItle 1 school?

[BoulderSooner]

Here’s Midtowner again on the Edmond forums ensuring any accusation of racism in Edmond is shown to be nothing but moot with a long drawn out ridiculous post with nothing but ramblings.

what did he say that was "ridiculous"?? or not true??


I live in Edmond so my kids can go to very good public schools .... Period... making sure that doesn't change is a primary consideration .... period ..

[Midtowner]

what did he say that was "ridiculous"?? or not true??

Not a thing. And PluPan isn't sending his kids to a Title 1 school. In other threads, he's talking about his home in Hollywood being too diverse and that he wants to move to the suburbs. HUGE hypocrite.

Typical out of town developer...living next to lower income housing is great for thee, but not for me.

I was once very much on the side of attending diverse schools and in fact, we purposely moved into NWOKC when my family definitely wanted me to stay in Edmond. We first lived in downtown OKC at Sycamore, in apartments, and then we moved to the Wiley Post ES area in the Putnam City District.

As far as racism, just thinking back on that accusation, is the accusation that people of color can't hack it enough to live in my neighborhood? Who exactly is the racist here?? I don't think any of my neighbors of color want to have a future Section 8 housing project sprouting up in the middle of our community. I guess they're racist too?

Oh it's very cool to be a social justice warrior until your own skin is in the game. Your children only have you to advocate for their best interests, and I'd be very surprised if either PluPan or dank are going to sacrifice their own children's future and well being on the altar of diversity and inclusion.

I'll bet that if dank doesn't live in an area with high performing public schools, he is going to make sure his kids are enrolled in a charter or private school. Probably the best one he can find.

I live in Edmond so my kids can go to very good public schools .... Period... making sure that doesn't change is a primary consideration .... period ..

[Plutonic Panda]

I don’t have kids. So no I’m not sending kids I don’t have to any schools.

My issues with living in Hollywood have nothing to do with diversity or lack thereof. You have not the slightest clue of what you’re talking about. I’m just pointing your constant comical takes on anything you post about regarding Edmond. They all suck.

[jerrywall]

Without getting into judgements... the reality is that we do need affordable housing in Edmond that teachers, nurses, firefighters, and lower income workers who work at Edmond businesses and support all of us, can afford to live in. I don't have the results of the affordability study Edmond just did in front of me, but off the top of my head it talked about how the average price of a new home being built in Edmond is over 400k currently. At the same time, only 20% of the people surveyed were comfortable spending more than 300k on a home. 60% of respondents can't currently afford a home in Edmond.

It's nuts that I bought my first house in Edmond, near UCO, in the 90s for 70k. My son who has a great job as a programmer but is starting his life has no chance of buying an affordable home, so they're paying more in rent than I currently pay in mortgage (and they're living in Moore - not Edmond).

This whole housing affordability discussion probably deserves it's own thread. I'd love to dig more into it. I don't know what the solution is to be honest... I get the fear some folks have, although I live right near 33rd and Kelly and I'm supportive of the planned apartments right outside my neighborhood. I also know a large part of the neighborhood right north of me is full of rent homes and I don't fret over it.

Edmond schools won't be good forever if the teachers can't afford to live where they teach. I know of at least 1 teacher who is leaving Edmond exactly for that reason.

[Midtowner]

I don’t have kids. So no I’m not sending kids I don’t have to any schools.

My issues with living in Hollywood have nothing to do with diversity or lack thereof. You have not the slightest clue of what you’re talking about. I’m just pointing your constant comical takes on anything you post about regarding Edmond. They all suck.

And if you don't have kids or don't plan to, your take on the whole situation re schools is kind of laughable. You obviously don't care about the community or how it's impacted by development.

[Midtowner]

Without getting into judgements... the reality is that we do need affordable housing in Edmond that teachers, nurses, firefighters, and lower income workers who work at Edmond businesses and support all of us, can afford to live in.

Agreed it's more of an overall housing affordability issue. But nurses, teachers and firefighters live in Edmond, there is affordable housing here. These developers aren't building affordable housing though as alluded to above. These are going to be apartments where a studio is going to set you back around $1,000 per month. In the short term, the folks in 2-3 bedroom apartments will be paying more in rent than I do for my mortgage for a home 3 times the size of theirs sitting on a good sized suburban lot.

My child will have long graduated from HS before these apartments, as all apartment complexes do, start changing hands and deteriorating because that's what apartments do and that's how the apartment business works. But assuming I live an average life expectancy, this will have a major impact on my neighborhood.

Investors are never good neighbors.

Edmond schools won't be good forever if the teachers can't afford to live where they teach. I know of at least 1 teacher who is leaving Edmond exactly for that reason.

Edmond Schools have been great for 100+ years and will continue to be so long as residents insist on quality developments.

[onthestrip]

Agreed it's more of an overall housing affordability issue. But nurses, teachers and firefighters live in Edmond, there is affordable housing here. These developers aren't building affordable housing though as alluded to above. These are going to be apartments where a studio is going to set you back around $1,000 per month. In the short term, the folks in 2-3 bedroom apartments will be paying more in rent than I do for my mortgage for a home 3 times the size of theirs sitting on a good sized suburban lot.

My child will have long graduated from HS before these apartments, as all apartment complexes do, start changing hands and deteriorating because that's what apartments do and that's how the apartment business works. But assuming I live an average life expectancy, this will have a major impact on my neighborhood.

Investors are never good neighbors.



Edmond Schools have been great for 100+ years and will continue to be so long as residents insist on quality developments.

One of the hottest commercial real estate classes is value added apartment complexes. Investors buying older complexes, fix them up, charge higher rents. Yes there are examples of apartment complexes going to crap (NW 10th St) but many many more examples of complexes staying updated and maintained quite well over several decades.

And as Jerry says, you have no idea how many homes in a neighborhood are being rented to not desirable people and poorly maintained by the landlord. I cant wait to see more apartments go up in those few small areas that are within OKC city limits but within Edmond school districts.

[BoulderSooner]

Edmond schools won't be good forever if the teachers can't afford to live where they teach. I know of at least 1 teacher who is leaving Edmond exactly for that reason.

tell this to Oakdale schools ... . they are the best in the entire state ..

[Midtowner]

One of the hottest commercial real estate classes is value added apartment complexes. Investors buying older complexes, fix them up, charge higher rents. Yes there are examples of apartment complexes going to crap (NW 10th St) but many many more examples of complexes staying updated and maintained quite well over several decades.

Near our old home. On the south end of the neighborhood there is now a "value added" complex. Before it was redone, it had serious crime problems all of the units had mold and infestations according to their reviews. I doubt they did a professional mold remediation on the property. I've hired mold remediation experts in court who have come up with mold remediation protocols for small resedential properties. I couldn't begin to imagine the cost on such a large property or how it could ever be cost effective to keep it standing and not just bulldoze it and start over. Assuming I'm right, the mold will be back in force and the complex will be just as bad as ever.

And again, right now, that complex might be fine. In 20 years, it won't be. The redevloper will again be long gone and at that point it seems pretty unlikely anything good will happen. That particular area is swimming in apartment complexes that used to be nice, but now are not.

And as Jerry says, you have no idea how many homes in a neighborhood are being rented to not desirable people and poorly maintained by the landlord. I cant wait to see more apartments go up in those few small areas that are within OKC city limits but within Edmond school districts.

There aren't a lot of rent houses in my neighborhood. I make the effort to know most of my neighbors. There was a neighbor a street over who was up to some criminal activity, but I did some lawyering and fixed that for my neighbors. If low lifes do move in here and they want to cause problems for the rest of us, they're going to have a bad time.

You can't wait.. I'll do what I can to fight it. It seems we have a pretty decent track record in this area and because the property spans Edmond and OKC and the Edmond part isn't insignificant, it seems there's at least a fair chance we can severly limit the size of any multifamily development to something that even at its worst is going to have a negligible impact.

[jerrywall]

tell this to Oakdale schools ... . they are the best in the entire state ..

I haven't seen much that puts Oakdale at number one. The USNEWS rankings has them at #21 in Oklahoma. However, even if it was the case, one exception doesn't disprove the statement. Are you claiming that having affordable options for the staff isn't a concern? We can look all over the countries for examples where workers aren't available due to the cost of living. I remember when my father worked for McD's corporate and there were owner/operators giving hourly employees free housing in certain areas just to get staff. Long term viability of the city will require affordable housing - plus we should want our nurses, police officers, teachers, etc to live in our neighborhoods and not to be commuters from outside the city. This is better for building our community and ensuring that those in those positions reflect the community they're working in.

[Midtowner]

I haven't seen much that puts Oakdale at number one. The USNEWS rankings has them at #21 in Oklahoma. However, even if it was the case, one exception doesn't disprove the statement. Are you claiming that having affordable options for the staff isn't a concern? We can look all over the countries for examples where workers aren't available due to the cost of living. I remember when my father worked for McD's corporate and there were owner/operators giving hourly employees free housing in certain areas just to get staff. Long term viability of the city will require affordable housing - plus we should want our nurses, police officers, teachers, etc to live in our neighborhoods and not to be commuters from outside the city. This is better for building our community and ensuring that those in those positions reflect the community they're working in.

Were those McD's operators putting up their staff in residences in the operators' own neighborhoods?

[jerrywall]

Were those McD's operators putting up their staff in residences in the operators' own neighborhoods?

I have no idea*, and that's not really relevant. The relevancy is that it was a problem. The problem will exist and continues to exist across the country and communities need to address it and Edmond can't stay the small/mid size white flight town it was in the 70s. It's a major part of the metro and its long term health will ensure that there are multiple housing options for folks at all stages of their lives with varied racial and income realities. That diversity is better for the community.

*(And in all actuality, in some of the places most likely - I know Vale was one of the problem areas and I have a feeling there wasn't some ghetto to hide the "undesirables" in).

[Midtowner]

Vale =/= Edmond. What a strange comparison. Have you been to either?

Vale is a small/midsize ski resort town. Lots of upscale things, but there is definitely room for microhousing, and we're not talking about McD's employees with families, we're talking about McD's employees who are there to be on the slopes when they're not working, probably looking for a very minimalistic living environment, and there are no suburbs of Vale really..

Edmond, on the other hand, particularly this part, there are low income housing options in OKC just a few miles away. And unlike this Edmond area, the OKC area is served by public transit. Not a great comparison.

And no, I don't think "diversity is better for the community" in all senses. Racial? Sure. Country of Origin? Absolutely. Economic? ehhh.. exactly the opposite is true. There are lots of places folks of varied income realities can live. They just don't have to be in my back yard.

[jerrywall]

Unlike okc Edmond has free public transit. Although I'm sure that pisses off some of the elitists. But it's fantastic service and also includes door to door transit for folks with mobility issues. It also runs down to the social security offices and downtown okc. All for free.

If people want to be exclusionary they can live in gated communities and send their kids to fancy private schools.

[dankrutka]

It's all cute and everything to be a social justice warrior when you don't have any skin in the game.

All your post did was rationalize your racism and classism. As someone who has committed their entire life to education and spends a lot of time in schools and working with them, I'd say I have skin in the game. Did you miss where I had to work against racism in Edmond Public Schools from some teachers and leaders toward students of color who lived in new apartments? This kids did not deserve to be stereotyped by adults, which is exactly what you're doing to children too.