Urban Vs. Suburban

[bradh]

There is a homebuilder looking to build new homes around Classen North Highland Park I believe. Not en masse, but custom for those who want to live in the area.

[boitoirich]

It will be great to see some investment in the core -- giving people those options PluPlan's always talking about :-)

[Urbanized]

Crown Heights? Putnam Heights? Linwood?

There are plenty of others.

Man, no kidding. Lots.

[Questor]

I agree. Heritage Hills/Mesta Park is the only place in OKC that really compares.

The main negative that I think Norman has is that it is so undergrad college focused. By that I mean it's really great that Norman is such a force of nature in town, but for grad students or residents of Norman there isn't as much going on. It's hard to explain in words. I guess what I mean is that while there are many places that for example professionals can go have a beer after work and maybe network a bit with new faces, that isn't as common in Norman unless you're going to school. That has changed a bit in recent years as new businesses open up, but is still largely the case.

[bchris02]

The main negative that I think Norman has is that it is so undergrad college focused. By that I mean it's really great that Norman is such a force of nature in town, but for grad students or residents of Norman there isn't as much going on. It's hard to explain in words. I guess what I mean is that while there are many places that for example professionals can go have a beer after work and maybe network a bit with new faces, that isn't as common in Norman unless you're going to school. That has changed a bit in recent years as new businesses open up, but is still largely the case.

Oh I agree. For urban living, especially for young professionals, there is no way Norman would be a better choice than downtown OKC unless they are in some way affiliated with OU. However, for suburban living I think Norman offers some of the best and most aesthetically pleasing suburbia in the metro.

[adaniel]

Y'all do realize you are comparing a major city of over 600K to a city that, despite how much old timers might resent this, is a white flight suburb that was largely developed in the past 30 or so years?

OKC has some planning flaws but I don't find there to be any more or less blight than other cities of its size.

[adaniel]

I agree. Heritage Hills/Mesta Park is the only place in OKC that really compares.

No offense, but sometimes you say things like this that are so clearly wrong, I really wonder if you get out as much as you say.

[bchris02]

No offense, but sometimes you say things like this that are so clearly wrong, I really wonder if you get out as much as you say.

I live in the outer burbs right now and when I go to the core it is usually to the Paseo or to Midtown. There is a lot off the beaten path I am not familiar with so I apologize for my ignorance. For instance, I didn't realize Classen North Highland Park was so nice.

I have six more months on my current lease. At that point, I am going to seriously consider moving to downtown OKC. I am in fact really looking forward to that possibility.

[Urbanized]

In my post above I originally had typed out that you need to get out more, but I deleted when posting because it read more harshly than I meant for it to. I think a move downtown (or at least into the inner loop of OKC) would do a lot to improve your outlook on OKC's culture and pace of change. It's hard not to be optimistic when your time is spent in inner OKC.

[AP]

I live in the outer burbs right now and when I go to the core it is usually to the Paseo or to Midtown. There is a lot off the beaten path I am not familiar with so I apologize for my ignorance. For instance, I didn't realize Classen North Highland Park was so nice.

I have six more months on my current lease. At that point, I am going to seriously consider moving to downtown OKC. I am in fact really looking forward to that possibility.

You have posted many times on here about being lonely so I think that kind of move would be perfect for you. Specifically somewhere in the Urban Neighbors area so you can join and meet other friends who live downtown.

[HOT ROD]

All, I was thinking the same thing with regard to BChris. He has a lot of insight and I think he means well, but I think where he currently lives in the not so nice suburban section has swayed his opinion of the city/metro as a whole, however, if he lived in the urban inner city he'd probably be a huge contributor to things that need fixing - and he might be able to see what OKC really has to offer.

I had to like the last few comments where BChris mentions that he's considering a move to the city - clearly, you are a city boy and need to be as close to Downtown as possible! lol. Also, I am excited that we as a forum didn't tear up his head for the 'negativity' in his post since he lives in a bad area and clearly that is framing his perception of the city - otherwise I think he means well in the comparisons and surely his involvement will only make OKC better.

Sometimes it is good to have a critic, but that critic should be well informed - and involved in making the city better.

[Questor]

Y'all do realize you are comparing a major city of over 600K to a city that, despite how much old timers might resent this, is a white flight suburb that was largely developed in the past 30 or so years?

OKC has some planning flaws but I don't find there to be any more or less blight than other cities of its size.

So Norman is one of the oldest cities in Oklahoma; it was settled before the land run. The area I was talking about is old Norman around the college and downtown, which was built a long, long time ago. It was there more than 30 years ago. It was there before "white flight." It was there before Norman and OKC were a never ending sea of suburbs connected by I-35, back when it was there because OU was there. And after all of that it still looks pretty nice.

So the origin of this comment is my earlier comment in this thread that I wish OKC spent more money and time, both public and private, on making the city more aesthetically pleasing. So really I was just pointing out that it is possible to do because there are surrounding suburbs that have made it happen. Maybe pointing out that OKC is 485k people larger than Norman is a fair point. Or maybe it's also a fair point to say OKC has a city budget many multiples that of Norman. That being the case maybe it's just an issue of priorities. In all reality I would guess it's also a supply and demand thing. The supply of houses around the campus is small compared to the number of people who want to live there. In OKC you have many options for housing and so there is little incentive by owners to keep old properties up unless the district they are in suddenly finds themselves desirable for some reason, such as being historically interesting or near entertainment. So I guess if you were asking me my thoughts on root cause would be too many houses always being built in OKC, and aesthetics always being too low on the city's priority list.

[adaniel]

Norman never had to deal with middle class families and their tax base abandoning large swaths of the city like OKC did in the 70s and 80s. To compare the urban and suburban experience is comparing apples and oranges. Also, you do realize that Norman was a sundown town until the 1970's and tried with gusto to keep out "undesirables" for the longest.

I am not bashing Norman...I was glad to call it home for 5 years. At the same time I remember plenty of crappy rentals interspersed in some of the nicer neighborhoods west of campus. Also, there is plenty of straight up s****y houses just north and east of downtown. Don't even start me on the decaying 70s apartments in and around 12th and Lindsay.

You won't find any disagreement with me concerning developers and the city not placing enough emphasis on beautification. At the same time you can say this for most of Central Oklahoma.

[Questor]

A lot of those rentals have been purchased, restored, and flipped for half a million recently. It's pretty shocking the changes that have happened in the last few years. I know Norman has it's bad areas, I've seen them and they are not great. But you know, none of them comes close to what I've seen driving through huge swathes of south OKC or near-north OKC. Those areas are huge problems regardless of their origin. Nothing comes close to it in any of the burbs that I know of. Okay, maybe it's unfair to compare because of historical reasons. But you know what, people are going to compare anyway. I think it is a fair point to bring up when you realize the city's population is basically equal to it's surrounding MSA minus the city. It's an issue that needs to be dealt with if it wants to remain competitive.

[LocoAko]

I have yet to explore Norman in depth, but I am going to this summer. From what I have seen, Norman has some really awesome parts of town that are beginning to be renovated and it would be nice if they would make it walkable so you can enjoy it.

Norman has infinitely more sidewalks than OKC. Even my cookie cutter suburb has them. I'm not sure what you're talking about? Obviously it is very spread out like every place in Oklahoma, but it is more walkable than anywhere else I've been in the state to be honest.

[LocoAko]

N/m

[Plutonic Panda]

Norman has infinitely more sidewalks than OKC. Even my cookie cutter suburb has them. I'm not sure what you're talking about? Obviously it is very spread out like every place in Oklahoma, but it is more walkable than anywhere else I've been in the state to be honest.

Never really noticed I guess. I was in an urban style neighborhood and there were no sidewalks and saw around 20 or so people walking on the street. That is why I said that, but it certainly doesn't speak for the rest of the city.

[Bunty]

Political Polarization and Personal Life | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

It is an enduring stereotype – conservatives prefer suburban McMansions while liberals like urban enclaves – but one that is grounded in reality. Given the choice, three-quarters (75%) of consistent conservatives say they would opt to live in a community where “the houses are larger and farther apart, but schools, stores and restaurants are several miles away,” and just 22% say they’d choose to live where “the houses are smaller and closer to each other, but schools, stores and restaurants are within walking distance.” The preferences of consistent liberals are almost the exact inverse, with 77% preferring the smaller house closer to amenities, and just 21% opting for more square footage farther away.

[bluedogok]

It comes down to preferences and those are fairly consistent.

Collectivists tend to prefer cities which creates shared areas and entities, which is easier to do with shared costs in areas of density. Those in suburban areas are more likely to identify with individualism, although with cookie cutter developments it is hard to consider them individualistic. That is why in most major metros they really aren't "blue or red" but really more purple. Legislation that passes easily in Denver, Austin, Dallas or Houston proper can be impossible to pass in the suburbs surrounding those cities. The outlier are younger people who identify as conservatives, when single they prefer to live in urban areas, makes it easier to stumble home from the bar (knew many in Austin and here who identify with that) but when they get married and start a family most still head out of the urban center although not as far out as their predecessors.

That just seems to be my observations in this part of the country.

[Spartan]

I don't know that the phrase collectivists is appropriate...

[LandRunOkie]

I have yet to explore Norman in depth, but I am going to this summer. From what I have seen, Norman has some really awesome parts of town that are beginning to be renovated and it would be nice if they would make it walkable so you can enjoy it.

Norman has infinitely more sidewalks than OKC. Even my cookie cutter suburb has them. I'm not sure what you're talking about? Obviously it is very spread out like every place in Oklahoma, but it is more walkable than anywhere else I've been in the state to be honest.

In most college towns the students are a force for change but that really isn't so in Norman. I have two main theories why: the prevalence of the greek system and the high percentage of Texans and rural Oklahomans. The greek system reinforces conformity and the latter are very conservative for college students and car-centric. You regularly see foreign students biking but it is still somewhat taboo to cycle in Norman, unless things have drastically changed in the last couple years.

[LocoAko]

In most college towns the students are a force for change but that really isn't so in Norman. I have two main theories why: the prevalence of the greek system and the high percentage of Texans and rural Oklahomans. The greek system reinforces conformity and the latter are very conservative for college students and car-centric. You regularly see foreign students biking but it is still somewhat taboo to cycle in Norman, unless things have drastically changed in the last couple years.

I wouldn't say "taboo" per se, but it is certainly uncommon. I agree about the international students having a much stronger bike presence. I've always assumed it was just because, at least compared to other colleges I've been to, OU's student population is much more spread out, living in large apartment complexes or affordable homes all over town (though this could be because I'm a graduate student... I'm not too in touch with undergrad life here). Back at my undergrad institution everyone either lived on campus or lived very close by, so walking/biking was much more common than it is here. However, there also weren't far flung student apartment complexes like there are here.

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

Bad investments, growth for its own sake are the doom of American cities - Daily Record: Members

[bchris02]

I think the rapid deterioration of NW OKC is a cause for concern. I remember when I lived here in the '90s, the area within the Putnam City district was among the best in the metro. In just 20 years a lot of that area has gone to absolute crap.

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

I think the rapid deterioration of NW OKC is a cause for concern. I remember when I lived here in the '90s, the area within the Putnam City district was among the best in the metro. In just 20 years a lot of that area has gone to absolute crap.

Some of that is exactly what Marohn is talking about. We enable it by building infrastructure "just in case" or letting developers have anything they want so they go for the easy clear the cornfield, slap up some houses, instant "neighborhood" scheme. We simply need to be smarter about how we grow and understand growth for growth's sake is a fiscal time bomb.