Lindsey Street

[HangryHippo]

You are correct, the city of Norman can do it. The problem is how such a radical change in design impacts people who voted for and desired a wider Lindsey St. but instead will get something significantly different. Those people feel like their trust in city government has been violated. So the next time the city wants money for something and promotes a certain design, some people will not believe them and vote against it for that reason alone. As the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Let's see what's built before we cast it in such negative light. I think this could wind up being great for Norman.

[venture]

You are correct, the city of Norman can do it. The problem is how such a radical change in design impacts people who voted for and desired a wider Lindsey St. but instead will get something significantly different. Those people feel like their trust in city government has been violated. So the next time the city wants money for something and promotes a certain design, some people will not believe them and vote against it for that reason alone. As the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I think we are in the process of getting changes pushed through Norman in a good way. The last city election eliminated half of the city council as people wanted a change. There is much hope to the new voices on council are more in tune with Norman and what is important to guide the city forward. It should be a wake up call for the remaining incumbents when the next city election is held that they may we eliminated as well.

However, I think it is important to show that we really need to start seeking experts in these fields in advance to get better plans in place. There is no doubt that the new consensus for the Lindsey design is exactly what we need as a community and not another 5 lanes of asphalt running through the city. At the end of the day the electorate probably won't care much, in general, with the end result and will be happy. There will still be those with bruised egos who are set in their ways and would rather pave our way to a solution - which is only going to lead to more congestion down the line.

While I feel we definitely need to ensure our elected officials present options to the electorate correct and deliver what is voted on, I am not going to be upset when a better solution is discovered before all the money is spent. Otherwise in 10-15 years we are going to be back trying to come up with a solution to fix more issues or kicking ourselves for contributing to another cookie cutter street. If people are going to be upset with the outcome of this, they can vote the way they feel they need to, but I feel they'll find themselves in the minority.

[vaflyer]

I know the official traffic numbers for Lindsey are down but Lindsey is a traffic nightmare from 3-6pm when OU is in session. I avoid Lindsey at all costs during that time and instead drive on residential streets in the immediate area. I am very skeptical keeping Lindsey at one lane in each direction and installing center medians and roundabouts will solve the traffic problems. Since the city is spending approximately $20 million on this project, I want the Lindsey traffic problem fixed.

Now some people say that increasing the Lindsey capacity to five lanes (as the city suggested at the time of the bond election) will just increase traffic. In my case, that is true. If traffic flows better on Lindsey, I will drive on it instead of traveling on residential streets but then that is the purpose of a main arterial street like Lindsey.

[Geographer]

I know the official traffic numbers for Lindsey are down but Lindsey is a traffic nightmare from 3-6pm when OU is in session. I avoid Lindsey at all costs during that time and instead drive on residential streets in the immediate area. I am very skeptical keeping Lindsey at one lane in each direction and installing center medians and roundabouts will solve the traffic problems. Since the city is spending approximately $20 million on this project, I want the Lindsey traffic problem fixed.

Now some people say that increasing the Lindsey capacity to five lanes (as the city suggested at the time of the bond election) will just increase traffic. In my case, that is true. If traffic flows better on Lindsey, I will drive on it instead of traveling on residential streets but then that is the purpose of a main arterial street like Lindsey.

***The new drawings do NOT keep Lindsey at 1 lane. It is two lanes each direction with a center median and roundabouts every 1/4 to 1/2 mile for turn around to go into a business on the other side of the street.

[vaflyer]

***The new drawings do NOT keep Lindsey at 1 lane. It is two lanes each direction with a center median and roundabouts every 1/4 to 1/2 mile for turn around to go into a business on the other side of the street.

As long as the city builds Lindsey St. with 2 lanes in each direction between NW 24th and Berry, I would be fine with it.

[venture]

***The new drawings do NOT keep Lindsey at 1 lane. It is two lanes each direction with a center median and roundabouts every 1/4 to 1/2 mile for turn around to go into a business on the other side of the street.

I really don't see how this keeps getting missed. I know my initial post after the meeting said one but quickly corrected it with in an hour. It just seems people still aren't taking the time to inform themselves on exactly what is going in there.

[soonerliberal]

***The new drawings do NOT keep Lindsey at 1 lane. It is two lanes each direction with a center median and roundabouts every 1/4 to 1/2 mile for turn around to go into a business on the other side of the street.

Are those posted somewhere online? I'd love to see what the plan looks like!

[ou48A]

Are those posted somewhere online? I'd love to see what the plan looks like!

The video on this link shows what Norman voters thought they were voting on.
It didn't have any roundabouts.

Conceptual Plan to Widen Lindsey Street (Berry Road to I-35) | City of Norman, Oklahoma

[Geographer]

Are those posted somewhere online? I'd love to see what the plan looks like!

I don't believe they are online anywhere, but I am sure if you email the city of Norman they have the drawings and presentation that Dan gave.

[Geographer]

The video on this link shows what Norman voters thought they were voting on.
It didn't have any roundabouts.

Conceptual Plan to Widen Lindsey Street (Berry Road to I-35) | City of Norman, Oklahoma

that design still makes me laugh.

[venture]

The video on this link shows what Norman voters thought they were voting on.
It didn't have any roundabouts.

Conceptual Plan to Widen Lindsey Street (Berry Road to I-35) | City of Norman, Oklahoma

Thankfully better reasoning took over and that design was thrown in the trash.

[ou48A]

that design still makes me laugh.

But still, it would be a major improvement over what we have now.

My problem isn't so much about what's being planed now as it is with the poor planing up front that didn't have the voters voting on what's actually going to be built.
Rather its better or not is not important to this part of the discussion. We need smarter decision makers that don't waste so much time and money.

[Geographer]

But still, it would be a major improvement over what we have now.

My problem isn't so much about what's being planed now as it is with the poor planing up front that didn't have the voters voting on what's actually going to be built.
Rather its better or not is not important to this part of the discussion. We need smarter decision makers that don't waste so much time and money.

I agree...too many civil engineers. haha

[David]

I'm rather mixed on this development. On one hand, I'm not going to claim that I prefer the original plan over the new roundabout plan (assuming it ends up looking something like this, that is). But on the other hand, such a huge change to a voter approved bond issue makes me very concerned.

Does what we voted for actually matter, or are we just writing blanks checks for the city council to cash however they want?

[jedicurt]

Does what we voted for actually matter, or are we just writing blanks checks for the city council to cash however they want?

no, it doesn't really matter. once a bond is approved for a project, i'm pretty certain the city can change the designs however they want, just so long as the bond still gets used on that project and the final requirements are met.

[Geographer]

I'm rather mixed on this development. On one hand, I'm not going to claim that I prefer the original plan over the new roundabout plan (assuming it ends up looking something like this, that is). But on the other hand, such a huge change to a voter approved bond issue makes me very concerned.

Does what we voted for actually matter, or are we just writing blanks checks for the city council to cash however they want?

Let's be real though, the average citizen vote on issues (such as a road design) without knowing really anything about proper street design (and yes this includes me as well on lots of things). I, for one, am actually GLAD that the city leaders decided to look at an alternative approach to road design other than blindly following the civil engineers design who are just numbers, numbers, numbers based. It's actually refreshing in my mind.

[HangryHippo]

Let's be real though, the average citizen vote on issues (such as a road design) without knowing really anything about proper street design (and yes this includes me as well on lots of things). I, for one, am actually GLAD that the city leaders decided to look at an alternative approach to road design other than blindly following the civil engineers design who are just numbers, numbers, numbers based. It's actually refreshing in my mind.

I agree with this, but I do see where it *could* become a slippery slope on some things.

[David]

I agree with this, but I do see where it *could* become a slippery slope on some things.

That's basically where I'm standing on this. It's easy to be happy with the city council doing their own thing if we agree with it, but what if the reverse was happening? What if the roundabout design was the original design that was overruled?

[venture]

That's basically where I'm standing on this. It's easy to be happy with the city council doing their own thing if we agree with it, but what if the reverse was happening? What if the roundabout design was the original design that was overruled?

Perhaps we need to have council look at the language on how the bond money can be spent. At some point we also need to hold city council accountable as well, which I think we did when half of them were given pink slips this past year. The problem is, and Geo alluded to this a bit, is that the electorate really doesn't take the time to research anything they vote on. If they did half the stuff would come out with a different result.

[HangryHippo]

That's basically where I'm standing on this. It's easy to be happy with the city council doing their own thing if we agree with it, but what if the reverse was happening? What if the roundabout design was the original design that was overruled?

That's a very valid point. My hope is that the council will look to better sources for information and education (like Dan Burden or Blair Humphreys for example on planning and such) and other relevant experts before they just go blindly voting for something. They need to educate themselves so that livable and likable elements become the original suggestions. Make sense?

[Geographer]

That's basically where I'm standing on this. It's easy to be happy with the city council doing their own thing if we agree with it, but what if the reverse was happening? What if the roundabout design was the original design that was overruled?

I definitely see your point

[ou48A]

Let's be real though, the average citizen vote on issues (such as a road design) without knowing really anything about proper street design (and yes this includes me as well on lots of things). I, for one, am actually GLAD that the city leaders decided to look at an alternative approach to road design other than blindly following the civil engineers design who are just numbers, numbers, numbers based. It's actually refreshing in my mind.

Can we be glad and sad about this at the same time?

The accountability to the voters falls on those who are yet to decide on how this project will be built.

This is not the first time Norman voters have voted for something only to have it significantly changed.
This has happened with a north side sewer plant I think maybe 2 or 3 times. But when the bait and switch keeps recurring the voters are increasing going to lose trust in the city causing more and more people to vote no on everything.

So if we are really being honest even if this is a short term gain we have got to know that actions that break the community trust won't improve the community over the long run.

[venture]

Can we be glad and sad about this at the same time?

The accountability to the voters falls on those who are yet to decide on how this project will be built.

This is not the first time Norman voters have voted for something only to have it significantly changed.
This has happened with a north side sewer plant I think maybe 2 or 3 times. But when the bait and switch keeps recurring the voters are increasing going to lose trust in the city causing more and more people to vote no on everything.

So if we are really being honest even if this is a short term gain we have got to know that actions that break the community trust won't improve the community over the long run.

Then it is up to Wards 2, 4, 6, and 8 to vote out their folks the next go around. Hold them accountable and show them the door. If they all get re-elected it just reinforces the community's support in allowing them to do this.

[venture]

Stakeholders support vision for Lindsey » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Property and business owners are on board with the revised plan for Lindsey Street. The city of course has final decision in the matter, but all momentum is on the better and more neighborhood friendly plan.

[David]

Has anyone been able to find renderings of the new plans? I've been hunting around on the city website and the only thing I have found so far is this page with the outdated plan.

There was mention back on page two of this thread of a presentation, has that been posted anywhere?