Oklahoma Breweries

[jedicurt]

Any insight as to why Elk Valley didn't make it?

only thing i ever heard on them was their rent was ridiculously high for that location. I don't know what the rent amount was, nor if that truly was the issue. I do know that they always had a hard time getting people to the tap room and that a large majority of their profits came from distribution. Which i always found the lack of people there surprising, because it was a beautiful patio area, and nice tap room. but there was hardly ever anyone there. Don't know if they just didn't advertise it correctly, or what. but that always seemed to be a struggle for them even well before the Pandemic.

[jn1780]

literally just pointing out that the writing for this had been on the wall. and that this isn't the "craft beer industry is dying" like others keep saying. all of the recent brewery closings have been not surprising to those who actually follow and know these breweries.

Twisted Spike always had a terrible location, Cross Timbers had some ownership issues, Black Mesa couldn't pay their taxes, and Equity made some bad ownership decisions that cost them their best staff and a large group of loyal customers.

i just get tired every time one of these has closed, so many people on here who don't frequent these places or know the people involved just throw out "Craft Beer Is Dying", or whatever other nonsense they constantly say when they don't actually know what is going on.

"Craft beer is dying" is an extreme overreaction, but sales are down from the surge of sales in years prior. Its typical to see the weaker run places go under when the market share gets smaller. Interests and tastes change throughout the years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikofg...h=70272a001121

[jedicurt]

I still have 3 more on my concerned list in the OKC Metro area. with one just never really doing great to start with, but most probably haven't even heard of them which is part of the problem. and two others that i think waited way too long to pivot during the pandemic when they used to make a killing on tap room, went a long period there where i think they just hoped it would come back once things opened up, and then saw that it was a much slower comeback than predicted and didn't adjust their distribution model to cover for that loss of revenue quickly enough. and then with one of them, the quick adjustment also caused some other issues such as consistency, etc which caused some people to shy away from them even after.

i really hope i'm wrong, and all three are able to pull it together and make it work. but i'm not very optimistic.

[jedicurt]

"Craft beer is dying" is an extreme overreaction, but sales are down from the surge of sales in years prior. Its typical to see the weaker run places go under when the market share gets smaller. Interests and tastes change throughout the years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikofg...h=70272a001121

in other markets i do think yes people have shifted back to other options, seltzers are very popular right now (some breweries offer those now) and whiskey and mezcal are having huge popularity gains right now. but markets change all the time, there is no saying that craft beer won't be back. remember that there are many styles of beer, and even those habits have changed. during the past 15 years, you could just make IPA's and everyone would flock to you, the late 90's was strong ales and stouts. what most around here are seeing is the move to seltzers (so many are making them) and light lagers and pilsners are making a huge comeback. So those breweries that are pivoting to making styles the market is trending towards seem to be doing well.

i just don't even think in the OKC area it's as much as the market is getting smaller... those that made quick pivots to changing trends both in the midst of the pandemic and now post pandemic, are seeing increases in revenue. i know several that 2023 is going to go down as their best year on books. I just legit think that there are options now, and just having a brewery doesn't automatically now mean that people are going to flock to it. Yes the market has changed, but that has happened for every market of the past 4 years. those that pivoted to the changing trends are doing great. Those that refused to change are suffering. It's no different than any other industry.

[BoulderSooner]

Any insight as to why Elk Valley didn't make it?

only thing i ever heard on them was their rent was ridiculously high for that location. I don't know what the rent amount was, nor if that truly was the issue. I do know that they always had a hard time getting people to the tap room and that a large majority of their profits came from distribution. Which i always found the lack of people there surprising, because it was a beautiful patio area, and nice tap room. but there was hardly ever anyone there. Don't know if they just didn't advertise it correctly, or what. but that always seemed to be a struggle for them even well before the Pandemic.

as someone that wanted to love it and lived very near by ... i can say that their tap room customer service was TERRIBLE >.

not just on 1 visit but pretty much all of them over the course of months ..

[jn1780]

i just don't even think in the OKC area it's as much as the market is getting smaller... those that made quick pivots to changing trends both in the midst of the pandemic and now post pandemic, are seeing increases in revenue. i know several that 2023 is going to go down as their best year on books. I just legit think that there are options now, and just having a brewery doesn't automatically now mean that people are going to flock to it. Yes the market has changed, but that has happened for every market of the past 4 years. those that pivoted to the changing trends are doing great. Those that refused to change are suffering. It's no different than any other industry.

I agree with this statement. Its just not the 'Gold Rush' days. Good businesses will take advantage of opportunities where they can.

[Bullbear]

as someone that wanted to love it and lived very near by ... i can say that their tap room customer service was TERRIBLE >.

not just on 1 visit but pretty much all of them over the course of months ..

Exactly this! a group of us brewery hop if not every weekend at least every other. Elk Valley stopped being on our list due to terrible customer service.
We hit Prairie, SkyDance, FWF, Anthem, Stone Cloud, Lively and Big Friendly on the regular.

[Bullbear]

as someone that wanted to love it and lived very near by ... i can say that their tap room customer service was TERRIBLE >.

not just on 1 visit but pretty much all of them over the course of months ..

Exactly this! a group of us brewery hop if not every weekend at least every other. Elk Valley stopped being on our list due to terrible customer service.
We hit Prairie, SkyDance, FWF, Anthem, Stone Cloud, Lively and Big Friendly on the regular.

[jedicurt]

as someone that wanted to love it and lived very near by ... i can say that their tap room customer service was TERRIBLE >.

not just on 1 visit but pretty much all of them over the course of months ..

that's very sad to hear. i only ever went there twice, and yes the service wasn't good

[Mballard85]

Any insight as to why Elk Valley didn't make it?

John started to get tired of the grind of it, when the lot to the south announced development that was a blow as that was the parking that people would use. I talked to a few people in the business and they all said that the lot going away was a big part him wanting to walk away.

He also was very back of the house and the people he let run the tap room did it a massive disservice. I think ultimately running a brewery was a little more than he wanted it to be. John is a brilliant brewer, but he never really treated the tap room as the life line it is to breweries. He often would give special beers to other establishments and not in the tap room because he didn't think about it.

[Mballard85]

I still have 3 more on my concerned list in the OKC Metro area. with one just never really doing great to start with, but most probably haven't even heard of them which is part of the problem. and two others that i think waited way too long to pivot during the pandemic when they used to make a killing on tap room, went a long period there where i think they just hoped it would come back once things opened up, and then saw that it was a much slower comeback than predicted and didn't adjust their distribution model to cover for that loss of revenue quickly enough. and then with one of them, the quick adjustment also caused some other issues such as consistency, etc which caused some people to shy away from them even after.

i really hope i'm wrong, and all three are able to pull it together and make it work. but i'm not very optimistic.

I've got a few that I am concerned about as well, high rent areas or massive build outs that don't seem to be used as they should.

[Pete]

I really loved the indoor/outdoor space at Crosstimbers.

I hope another brewer will setup there and make it work.

[Bullbear]

Crosstimbers was a favorite of ours as well. great patio but also covered for overly sunny or rainy days.

[jedicurt]

I really loved the indoor/outdoor space at Crosstimbers.

I hope another brewer will setup there and make it work.

i have reason to believe that is what the owner of the building wants as well. he just didn't want it to continue being Crosstimbers.

[dankrutka]

John started to get tired of the grind of it, when the lot to the south announced development that was a blow as that was the parking that people would use. I talked to a few people in the business and they all said that the lot going away was a big part him wanting to walk away.

Blaming losing a parking lot seems like an excuse. That is not an overly busy area and they had a small brewery. Customers should have been able to park within a block on the street. Moreover, they're right on the streetcar line. I suspect it's issues like customer service or poor advertising or just poor visibility that were far more likely causes of them struggling.

[Pete]

I don't have insider knowledge of any of these breweries, but never was the bar or restaurant that closed and said, "We weren't good operators, there wasn't enough demand for what we were serving, and we had no interest in trying to market ourselves."

It's always construction, the landlord, or some other reason.

At the same time, nobody seems to be very surprised by the closing which tells the real story.

[CaptDave]

If you haven't tried it yet, Core4 is my favorite local brewery. They had the best Marzen I have ever tried for Octoberfest. The owners and staff are fun to spend time with in the taproom.

[Jersey Boss]

Anybody know of any establishments that sell Mead?

[Jeepnokc]

Anybody know of any establishments that sell Mead?

OK Cider Co has two meads on tap right now

[borchard]

The ones my wife and I really enjoy are:
ON THE ROTATION

Angry Scotsman - Great beer. Great patio. Great staff
Roughtail - Great beer. Great building
American Solera - Great beer. Great location (for us). Good staff
Frenzy - Good beer. Great taproom. Great location (for us)

STILL FREQUENT

Prairie Artisan - Great beer. Just keep forgetting about it.
Skydance - Really good beer. Great building. Good location.
Lively - Good beer.
Stonecloud - Good beer. Cool building. Just don't go as often as we used to.
FWF - Good beer. Good building. Keep forgetting about.

[bille]

Having close insight to the local OK craft scene for many years now to include being involved with grassroots efforts to bring alcohol moderations (legalizing taprooms for one) and being in homebrew clubs with the majority of the brewery proprietors I can type thousands of words on the history and my opinion of the state of OK craft beer, despite not being as closely involved with it as I was five or ten years ago, but I don't want to bore you all with that nonsense.

The easiest way to explain why our breweries are "failing" is as bad as it sounds to admit it, we just don't have the numbers of fans to support all of them. Another thing that many aren't aware of is that a lot of these breweries got off the ground prior to taprooms being legalized and in many cases were not even on their radars so in order to be profitable you had to be financed into a brew system large enough to provide as much product as you could afford to produce. This pushed many to a fine line of coming up with a portfolio they appeased the masses while also having something relatively exciting and "new" to keep customers returning. As you know we tend to have short attention spans.

Something that hinders many breweries is being placed in an area that doesn't have convenient food sources, whether that's a place or two next door or easy delivery. Ultimately being placed where they were (Elk Valley) John was heavily relying on the nextdoor development, an ajoining establishment that was to have at least a food option and other traffic draws, something akin to the 8th street market (where Prairie is), at least that was my understanding. Now I haven't straight up asked John why or what he thinks was the ultimate reason but many times I talked to him about the state of the brewery he mentioned that development and how he hoped something would come through. As others have mentioned, every single time I was there it was not busy. Marketing and a good taproom vibe (which certainly took a dive when Chelsea left) would have helped but who knows if he could have saved the taproom or just extended its time.

IMO the strongest taprooms that will be able to weather the current conditions are the low overhead brewpub spaces that sell the majority (or all) of their beer across the bar as that allows for a 90ish percent profit margin versus a 35ish one sending products through the distribution chain.

In short, OK breweries got a late start and late law changes put us in an interesting predicament as national breweries were also expanding their distribution. If you have paid attention to those popular breweries they have faced many challenges as well. A lot of closings, a lot of scaling back distribution, many takeovers and mergers as well. Honestly none of the local brewery closures thus far have surprised me. Many of us saw it coming and yes, there will be more unfortunately. I can speculate on a couple, but I'd rather not send that negativity out there into the ether as again, I'm friends with most of the owners and brewers and ultimately, I do wish for them to have some success and survive.

[Pete]

^

Thank you for all that insight.

I will say that relative newcomer Fair Weather Friend seems to have found their audience. But they do a great job of serving food and marketing themselves and the various events they hold, such as trivia.

Also, Frenzy Brewing in Downtown Edmond seems to do well and of course there are now tons of food places all around them. Sundance is another that does a good job of marketing themselves and seems to stay pretty busy. Stonecloud was one of the first and they also seem to have found their audience, same with OG Anthem.


It seems the lesson is you'd better offer something unique and actively work on continuous promotion and events. OKC is too competitive to just open your doors and hope people show up and keep thinking of you amid the hundreds of competing choices.

[TheTravellers]

^

Thank you for all that insight.

I will say that relative newcomer Fair Weather Friend seems to have found their audience. But they do a great job of serving food and marketing themselves and the various events they hold, such as trivia.
...

And they have a built-in customer base with Beer City Music Hall right next door, so lots of foot traffic that some taprooms just don't get.

[Mballard85]

I'll say this, if you are not frequenting the Big Friendly, you are doing yourself a massive disservice.

[jedicurt]

I'll say this, if you are not frequenting the Big Friendly, you are doing yourself a massive disservice.

yes. they are the only brewery in Oklahoma right now winning national awards. and the product speaks for itself