NFL in OKC

[jedicurt]

The game I'm remembering was a day game. I know I was not at that frozen A&M debacle.



Yeah, I've been buying cheap tickets on game day for the last 25 years, and I've paid more than face exactly once - 2000 Nebraska - so that's why I've always kinda looked at the "waiting list" with a jaundiced eye. There aren't 20K people down there every game day buying up every ticket in existence. Agree completely that the "waiting list" doesn't begin to justify any big expansion.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread. Just saying (and in an indirect way agreeing) that the success of the team on the field plays no small part in determining its financial success as the ticket price increases, and that's a "bumpy road" we've not yet had to trod with the Thunder. Back when the only thing in OKC was the 89ers, ol' Bing and Patty Cox Hampton became masterful marketeers of "entertainment baseball" as a family outing rather than focusing on the wins and losses. And it worked. But that's much harder to do with a real, top-level pro sports franchise.

Still no takers on the legality of OU selling alcohol at OMS during home games?? Surely someone out there knows for sure..

Derail as much as you want... before you did there was as much wishful thinking in here as there is on the Mystery Tower thread

[Dubya61]

Derail as much as you want... before you did there was as much wishful thinking in here as there is on the Mystery Tower thread

No one REALLY wants to close that Mystery Tower thread, either. We should combine the two. Here's just the speculation that could kick off the next frenzy. You know how there's the rumor going around that some multi-national company will build a new headquarters here in OKC? Well, I was at dinner the other night and was talking to a friend who's cousin works for the NFL and he was saying that the buzz around the NFL water cooler is that the Jags are going to London full time, the Texans are moving to Mexico City, and the league (ITSELF!) was going to build a mostrous tower / stadium on the Cotton Coop site that will house the league, dwarf Devon AND house the OKC Tycoons (the new leagued owned team nee STL Rams).

No timeline, though. Take it for what it's worth.

[Snowman]

No one REALLY wants to close that Mystery Tower thread, either. We should combine the two. Here's just the speculation that could kick off the next frenzy. You know how there's the rumor going around that some multi-national company will build a new headquarters here in OKC? Well, I was at dinner the other night and was talking to a friend who's cousin works for the NFL and he was saying that the buzz around the NFL water cooler is that the Jags are going to London full time, the Texans are moving to Mexico City, and the league (ITSELF!) was going to build a mostrous tower / stadium on the Cotton Coop site that will house the league, dwarf Devon AND house the OKC Tycoons (the new leagued owned team nee STL Rams).

No timeline, though. Take it for what it's worth.

If you want to start a rumor don't use the Jags and the Texans, they have some of the longest in the NFL and there are cheaper teams to buy and move.

[bige4ou]

I'm not sure an NFL stadium is a "terrible idea." I was thinking more along the lines of how much the potential income the city could come with it. Just a single NFL season has the potential to make the city make uppers of 100 million per season for the surrounding areas (probably more). Plus the other things you could draw. (bowl game, concerts, potential site of some game for the FIFA world cup should it come back to the US, etc.) Not to mention naming rights.

The one thing that's been true of basically every major league city (and we saw it with Bennett and co), it's that you're going to need a private person('s) to step up and take it upon themselves to start the process. Private funding can do wonders should people feel the need and want to step up. Devon has been awesome so far. If others do what their doing the possibilities could be endless for this city.

As far as support goes I honestly believe we WOULD support it. What sports team here in Oklahoma doesn't have am incredible fan base? You can't tell me it wouldn't be supported. Also it's not like we're talking 43 home games a year like the NBA. It would be about 8 regular season 2 pre-season and however many post season games. Another thing people also say is that there wouldn't be enough people in OKC to support it. Well I don't think just people from OKC are going to be the only ones coming. Two thirds of the Oklahoma population (over 2 million) live within 100 miles. There would never be a conflict of interest (games on the same night) because college football is on saturdays and NFL is on Sundays/Mondays. Just as long as the Thunder and the NFL team don't schedule games on the one Monday night game the team would get. To me if your going to build any kind of stadium even for soccer it couldn't be a small one. Why waste all that money on small when you could potentially go big to an NFL team.

To sum it all up I really believe it is possible, just not in the near future. Not until some group steps up. Just throwing out ideas though! I think a perfect location would be in the site where the big rock climbing places is on the corner of shields and I-40 (Where the mills/barns are) I feel like that would be an amazing place for a stadium.

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[dankrutka]

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

[OKCisOK4me]

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

I sincerely agree. The other day, for instance, I was listening to WWLS and some guy called in to say that it'd only work if it were located somewhere between Tulsa and OKC. I laughed at the whole idea as it reminded me of the "steel toilet bowl" stadium design that some wacko came up with a few years back for a major stadium in Stroud. I'm sorry, but the whole idea of it is ludicrous.

[MDot]

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

Absolutely agree with you KT.

[SoonerDave]

I'm not sure an NFL stadium is a "terrible idea." I was thinking more along the lines of how much the potential income the city could come with it. Just a single NFL season has the potential to make the city make uppers of 100 million per season for the surrounding areas (probably more). Plus the other things you could draw. (bowl game, concerts, potential site of some game for the FIFA world cup should it come back to the US, etc.)

But you're looking at about a $500M to $1B initial investment before you even begin to start thinking about those kinds of returns. And not every team is going to give you that kind of coin.

Not to mention naming rights.

Yeah, Jerry Jones was planning to sell naming rights for Cowboy Stadium for a pretty penny, then the economy tanked. He still hasn't sold them. We had a tough time finding a replacement sponsor for what was the Ford Center until Chesapeake came along.

The one thing that's been true of basically every major league city (and we saw it with Bennett and co), it's that you're going to need a private person('s) to step up and take it upon themselves to start the process. Private funding can do wonders should people feel the need and want to step up. Devon has been awesome so far. If others do what their doing the possibilities could be endless for this city.

The problem is there's just a finite number of private folks with anywhere remotely near the kind of coin it would take to get an NFL franchise and facility up and operational in OK. There isn't an infinite pool of corporate money from which to draw. And, yes, it was done with the NBA under a perfect storm of circumstance, but the kind of $$ needed for an NFL venture is drastically higher.

As far as support goes I honestly believe we WOULD support it. What sports team here in Oklahoma doesn't have am incredible fan base? You can't tell me it wouldn't be supported.

Yes, I can. The Redhawks minor league baseball team's attendance has dropped so much that the current owners covered up most of the upper deck outfield seating at the Bricktown Ballpark. The Barons attendance, as I understand it, continues to drop steadily.

Also it's not like we're talking 43 home games a year like the NBA. It would be about 8 regular season 2 pre-season and however many post season games. Another thing people also say is that there wouldn't be enough people in OKC to support it. Well I don't think just people from OKC are going to be the only ones coming. Two thirds of the Oklahoma population (over 2 million) live within 100 miles. There would never be a conflict of interest (games on the same night) because college football is on saturdays and NFL is on Sundays/Mondays. Just as long as the Thunder and the NFL team don't schedule games on the one Monday night game the team would get. To me if your going to build any kind of stadium even for soccer it couldn't be a small one. Why waste all that money on small when you could potentially go big to an NFL team.

The problem isn't the desire to support a team, its the financial ability to support it, and that means discretionary income. As you note, an NFL franchise would look to sell season tickets to eight home games plus one or two worthless pre-season games (a mandatory tie-in for most if not all franchises), plus premium parking licenses, which is going to be a much taller order as an expense than a pair of season tickets to, say, OU football. OU football has a tremendous legacy behind it, and that's what drives folks to drive from all over the state. Do you think your going to get the same thousands of people to drive to OKC from, say, Tulsa, Gage, Ardmore, Purcell, etc. for multiple NFL games?

Again - its not about conflicting schedules, or how much we all love football. Its all about discretionary income. Look at the statistics that suggest a metropolitan area needs a population base of about 1 million people per pro sports franchise - and with a rough gross metro pop of about 1.2M, we've got our one pro franchise, and its working out famously. What's the source for that additional income?
[/quote]

To sum it all up I really believe it is possible, just not in the near future. Not until some group steps up. Just throwing out ideas though! I think a perfect location would be in the site where the big rock climbing places is on the corner of shields and I-40 (Where the mills/barns are) I feel like that would be an amazing place for a stadium.

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Well, at least on that we can agree . I'm really not trying to be a wet blanket on the whole idea, but when I see other cities (like Cleveland, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) which have sold their soul for an NFL franchise and end up finding themselves in a serious financial mess as a result, I just *hate* any idea that might imperil Oklahoma City's situation with a similar unwise venture. We can't let our financial good sense overrule our hearts on how "cool" it would be to have an NFL franchise.

We had some pretty darned smart businessmen realize that certain pro sports franchises were within our grasp. The NHL was the first choice, based on our support of the Blazers, and we were played by the NHL for them to leverage a better offer from a preferred city. I think both private and public sector elements learned from that experience. It didn't discourage them at all from pursuing a next-best-fit pro franchise once we proved we could support the Hornets, even if only on a short-term basis. I strongly suspect those same folks know full well that an NFL franchise is an enterprise of an entirely different magnitude, in terms of both public and private support. We've got a great thing going. We have good basic business rules of thumb others have learned through hard experience that teach us what's needed to go to the NFL level, and we're just not there yet. Let's not mess it up.

[Snowman]

We had some pretty darned smart businessmen realize that certain pro sports franchises were within our grasp. The NHL was the first choice, based on our support of the Blazers, and we were played by the NHL for them to leverage a better offer from a preferred city.

The NHL was the first attempt because it is a much more fluid league as far as relocations go, the NBA had no teams seeking relocation at the time and we would were a harder sell to them before the Hornets were here.

The Barons attendance, as I understand it, continues to drop steadily.

Their average is up over last year

[BoulderSooner]

The NHL was the first attempt because it is a much more fluid league as far as relocations go, the NBA had no teams seeking relocation at the time and we would were a harder sell to them before the Hornets were here.



Their average is up over last year

the NHL effort wasn't about relocation it was about Expansion

[SoonerDave]

The NHL was the first attempt because it is a much more fluid league as far as relocations go, the NBA had no teams seeking relocation at the time and we would were a harder sell to them before the Hornets were here.



Their average is up over last year

Fair enough...stand corrected! Just don't follow them, and last I heard they were near the bottom of the league in attendance.

[jedicurt]

Fair enough...stand corrected! Just don't follow them, and last I heard they were near the bottom of the league in attendance.

yes, we are at the bottom of the league with an average of 3500, but we are up on the average almost 300 per game, and the league average is only 5,500 this year.

we also are not inflating our numbers like a lot of the other teams do... Hershey PA for example has sold out every game now for 3 years... and while they do get close to that 9,800 league leading attendance on weekend games... if you watch the video from a weekday game, they are sitting around that 3 to 4 thousand mark, but it still gets listed as a sellout because they have corporate sponsors who come in and buy all the tickets. we refuse to do that and want to show real attendance numbers. While it is believed that we are still at the bottom in attendance even by the real numbers, we are much closer to the average than is shown now... and like i tell everyone... someone has to be at the bottom in attendance in every league.

but i agree with your statement on the Redhawks attendance being way down. and i do not think that OKC or Tulsa could support a NFL franchise. especially if it wasn't successful.

[Teo9969]

Make it stop. This is not realistic. Not now, not in the next 25 years. NFL teams need more sponsors than Thunder have. We're already stretching our sponsors thin. What corporations are going to sponsor the team?!?

I've said this in this thread before: I think you are underselling the growth potential of OKC's economic infrastructure.

No one...I repeat, no one in this thread is saying that OKC is in a position right now to handle an NFL team.

But anyone in this thread who is laughing at the idea of OKC ever having NFL team is not looking at this proposition objectively.

Simply put OKC needs only 3 things to support an NFL team on top of an NBA team (make no mistake though...if the NFL comes to town, the NBA would instantly become the red-headed-step-child):

1. ~3 more Fortune 500 companies (on top of CHK, DVN, and likely candidate CLR)
2. ~4 more companies like American Fidelity and MidFirst
3. A metro population of ~2M

I hate to burst the pessimistic bubble in this thread, but all of that is *possible* in the next 20-25 years, and to argue otherwise shows a lack of understanding of how much can change in a quarter century.

I personally think we're looking closer to 30 years for that to happen, but it also seems that OKC is 1 major relocation away from turning heads and growing faster than it is even now.

The odds may not be 75%, but they're not 0% either.

[SoonerDave]

I personally think we're looking closer to 30 years for that to happen, but it also seems that OKC is 1 major relocation away from turning heads and growing faster than it is even now.

The odds may not be 75%, but they're not 0% either.

In the course of this discussion (and I think one like it on another thread), some suggested that an NFL stadium be part of what's apparently supposed to be an "inevitable" MAPS n+1.. That's not a 30-year plan.

[OKCisOK4me]

I'm 35. I'll probably be 60+ before OKC has an NFL team. Even Sid's Five Year Plan got laughed at in Big Daddy. I could die before I think I'm going to make it to 60+ so, in my lifetime, no I don't think it will happen. Can it happen? Sure, but I realistically give it only a 39% probability. I'd like to see this question end up on the Sunday Sports Blitz, just so I can see John & Dean's percentages on it.

[Teo9969]

In the course of this discussion (and I think one like it on another thread), some suggested that an NFL stadium be part of what's apparently supposed to be an "inevitable" MAPS n+1.. That's not a 30-year plan.

What are the assumptions on this "'inevitable' MAPS n+1 plan?

Say in the next 10 years we get a major corporate relocation (or maybe sooner?), CLR becomes Fortune 500, and Boeing adds another 2,000 jobs to OKC. Meanwhile the medical field continues to ramp up in OKC, unemployment stays under 6% and the growth rate stays ~2%/year. If the vote for MAPS n+1 is in year 11, is it really ridiculous to put the idea on the table?

(Note: I personally would be opposed to investing any more than 10% - 20% of the cost of a stadium w/ public money, and think if OKC is to get an NFL team, a particular individual/entity needs to make an investment in the city and go that direction).

And contrary to what some have said in this thread, this is far more reasonable a possibility than the conditions being right for all but about 15 other markets landing a team, and some of those are every bit as shaky as OKC.

[SoonerDave]

You know what, I'm just kinda fatigued by this whole discussion. I had a nice, thoughtful reply typed up, and realized, why bother.

The NFL in OKC is a bad idea, not because of OKC, but because of the finances it requires. We've had success with the NBA. That does not translate to success with the NFL. Let's learn from the cities who let their hearts overrule their heads, and are cleaning up the fiscal mess that has resulted.

[OKCisOK4me]

The MSA population of OKC in 1980 was roughly 861,000. Now, with a change of +400,000 even if we double that stat in the next 30 years...its well short of adding 2 million more to our base population...

[Praedura]

If we use a base of 1.3 million as the current MSA population, we would hit 2 million in 22 years given a 2% per year rate of increase.

(1.02 ^ 22) * 1.3 = 2.01 (little over 2 million)

In other words, we'd get there by the year 2035.


A 3% rate of increase year after year would get us there 8 years ealier.

(1.03 ^ 14) * 1.3 = 1.97 (just under 2 million)

So, we'd reach 2 million sometime in mid 2027.

And, of course, you could speed up the timeline even more with a faster rate.


It seems likely that OKC has little chance of getting an NFL team before 2030. Perhaps we'll never get one. But you never know. Predicting that far out is basically impossible.

Why it bothers some on this board so much that we even have this thread is beyond me. It's only a few people having fun, speculating on an online forum.

[jedicurt]

it doesn't bother me at all that we have this thread... i just don't think it will happen, and not entirely sure that i would want it to happen, in my lifetime. I think we could come up with a much better use of the (at a minimum) $350 Million dollars that the city alone would have to put into a stadium...

And this is coming from a HUGE NFL fan... i already have my DVR set up to record the Combine this week. and i throw a NFL Draft Party every year

Oakland Raiders, Super Bowl Champs in 2046... cause you gotta have hope!

[G.Walker]

When Nashville brought the Oilers (now Titans) to their city, the metro area only had a population of 1,311,789, just saying.

[jedicurt]

When Nashville brought the Oilers (now Titans) to their city, the metro area only had a population of 1,311,789, just saying.

but that was an owner wanting to move the team there... they didn't have a group out of Nashville try and buy a team and bring it there. If OKC ever gets a supporter of the city who ends up owning an NFL team as majority owner... then ok. we have a chance... but the odds of that happening are not that great as those teams don't come up for sell very often, and there is usually a lot of competition when they do.

our best bet would be for NFL Expansion... and i just don't think the NFL would give us more than a glace of a look

[SoonerDave]

Why it bothers some on this board so much that we even have this thread is beyond me. It's only a few people having fun, speculating on an online forum.

The presence of the thread doesn't inherently bother me.

I think there's a difference between a mindset of fun speculation/wishful thinking and one that implies a sort of insistence we should do it "because everyone said we couldn't support the NBA," or "of COURSE we could support it, we're a football state..."

I guess I'm jaded by the stories I've read from other cities who had the same wishful, hopeful notion, and its turned into a public financing nightmare for them. I don't want that to happen to OKC. That's all.

[Teo9969]

The NFL in OKC is a bad idea, not because of OKC, but because of the finances it requires. We've had success with the NBA. That does not translate to success with the NFL. Let's learn from the cities who let their hearts overrule their heads, and are cleaning up the fiscal mess that has resulted.

Dave, This isn't going to vote tomorrow...and probably not even 5 years from now (the next MAPS vote is probably going to be a "finish MAPS 3 right" vote).

So is it right for me to assume you are saying "OKC has minuscule chances at best to establish the necessary business infrastructure for the NFL in the next 20 to 30 years"?

[jedicurt]

So is it right for me to assume you are saying "OKC has minuscule chances at best to establish the necessary business infrastructure for the NFL in the next 20 to 30 years"?

How long has San Antonio been trying? and it sure isn't working out for them... they Built a Stadium to bring an NFL team there... and aside from a few preseason games and the temp relocation of the Saints after Katrina, it has been unused by Pro Football