Streetcar

[okclee]

Interesting reaction. lol I do think that it is appropriate to ask though. Philosophically, I agree about the funding. Technically, we do know that there are a great many people who travel there for different reasons. The thing that I find fascinating about it, is that it sits in the middle of essentially a highway interchange. It is a completely isolated place (from a pedestrian point of view). It is nearly impossible to walk out of the "ring" unless you walk due south on Lincoln.

Maybe I overreacted a little, lol. It is a dilemma, huge employment in this area but I believe ridership would be small.

I do know the Capitol and OUHSC along Lincoln has always been in the streetcar discussion. Obviously there are many people in the Capitol area and employment along Lincoln, but I don't think this area would have a high amount of ridership. Same goes for the Health Science Center, there would be the commute to work crowd both morning and evening but after 6pm those areas are dead.

Something I have heard many times is people thinking that the OUHSC could influx people to Bricktown for lunch. I believe that most employees and students in the OUHSC very rarely have the luxury to step out of the building for longer than 15 mins, the complete opposite of the business district.

Here is my streetcar destination list;
downtown
midtown
auto alley
uptown 23rd
deep deuce
asian district
paseo
plaza
western ave (crown heights)

I am leaving off bricktown.

I love the idea of Bricktown having the HUB between Reno and Sheridan along Broadway, I do not like the idea of Bricktown having a streetcar moving throughout the area.

[shane453]

What will happen to Bricktown if it has poor streetcar access AND poor convention center access? Does our first revitalized district deserve that?

[Spartan]

Shane, I agree 100%. I think the misnomer is that Bricktown will thrive because it has for as long as we can easily remember. We haven't had a West End happen here, and the West End comparisons are certainly getting weaker as Dallas is getting some results in bringing the West End back. It's more important that we look at Bricktown as part of a package that includes other neighborhoods and not separate. The streetcar will lead to organic growth for the first time in 60+ years in OKC, so we need Bricktown to be a key destination in the system.

Jeff/Lee, I think think Uptown 23rd is so perfect for streetcar that if you've got to serve an auxiliary neighborhood, that seems by far the best one to get to, especially above something that might be attractive to alternative funding sources that isn't really part of the organic "next step" out from downtown which Uptown 23rd undoubtedly is. Plaza/Paseo certainly are good ones too, but Paseo is too far.

[okclee]

What will happen to Bricktown if it has poor streetcar access AND poor convention center access?

The convention center is another issue, I would hope that it is located at the lumberyard site giving easy pedestrian access into Bricktown. Also locating the streetcar hub to the west along Broadway and Reno would give Bricktown another great asset for more pedestrians to venture into the district. Again place the streetcar hub to the west of Bricktown's main entrances, this is a major piece to the streetcar, in many ways more valuable than having tracks into the district.

Does our first revitalized district deserve that?

I believe Bricktown will continue with slow growth the same pace as it has for the past ten years. The Bricktown property owners seem to be their own problem. Owners that have been speculating and sitting on their valuable assets for many years hoping for someone to pay their asking prices or have decided that making money from parking lots is their best investment. Others over paid for their property and now can't justify a quality development that may or may not pay them healthy return on their investment.

[okclee]

Jeff/Lee, I think think Uptown 23rd is so perfect for streetcar that if you've got to serve an auxiliary neighborhood, that seems by far the best one to get to, especially above something that might be attractive to alternative funding sources that isn't really part of the organic "next step" out from downtown which Uptown 23rd undoubtedly is. Plaza/Paseo certainly are good ones too, but Paseo is too far.

Spartan, you have sold me on Uptown 23rd as an excellent route and that is why I moved it near the top on my list, and should definitely be connected with the initial route. If the route could run 23rd between Robinson and Classen (maybe further west, Blackwelder?) would be perfect.

I keep looking at the maps and wonder why not consider Robinson and Hudson as the trasit mall couplet? From Sheridan to 13th street, using Hudson as opposed to Broadway, keeping the Robinson route all the way through to 23rd?

[betts]

If we see the extension out of downtown as an attractive destination for people, what does 23rd offer in your opinion? I see it as about more than just getting somewhere. There has to be a somewhere to get to.

[OKCRT]

If we see the extension out of downtown as an attractive destination for people, what does 23rd offer in your opinion? I see it as about more than just getting somewhere. There has to be a somewhere to get to.

I really don't see much along 23rd street. Why not send it south to Capitol Hill? Around 25th & Robinson? I bet you would get more ridership from that area than you would from NW 23rd st. area. I never see any diagrams of the streetcar going south. Why is that? That area has far more poor people without transportation than prob. anywhere in the city but I never hear a thing about the streetcar going down there.

[Kerry]

I really don't see much along 23rd street. Why not send it south to Capitol Hill? Around 25th & Robinson? I bet you would get more ridership from that area than you would from NW 23rd st. area. I never see any diagrams of the streetcar going south. Why is that? That area has far more poor people without transportation than prob. anywhere in the city but I never hear a thing about the streetcar going down there.

The biggest problem going south out of downtown is getting to Capitol Hill with the amount of track available in Phase 1. This is where there was some confusion over what people thought streetcars were going to be. Several people thought OKC would build a downtown circulator and that would be it. Ridership would come from downtown residents, office workers, hotel guest, and people that arrived downtown via a car. Any future rail expansion would be limited to commuter rail. That was wrong.

The goal of the OKC City Council is to build a complete streetcar network in phases that just serves the City of Oklahoma City. This will result in 6 to 8 streetcar lines that serve all areas of the urban core (a 50 sq. mile area of central OKC) and include either a central hub or a downtown transit mall. Future connections to a commuter rail system are still possible but the City does not want to make their system dependent on outside forces to be successful. Streetcars will come to Capitol Hill, it just might be in phase 2, 3, or 4.

[Spartan]

Spartan, you have sold me on Uptown 23rd as an excellent route and that is why I moved it near the top on my list, and should definitely be connected with the initial route. If the route could run 23rd between Robinson and Classen (maybe further west, Blackwelder?) would be perfect.

I keep looking at the maps and wonder why not consider Robinson and Hudson as the trasit mall couplet? From Sheridan to 13th street, using Hudson as opposed to Broadway, keeping the Robinson route all the way through to 23rd?

The problem with Hudson/Robinson isn't so much about those streets themselves, although I do dislike both (while still agreeing that Robinson is very strategic)..the problem is that in my mind, Broadway needs the streetcar. Automobile Alley is our most impressive urban corridor and I just think there's something romantic about the idea of streetcars gliding up and down that corridor. And I do think it is very important to make sure the streetcar goes through sexy urban areas. Not only does it make the TOD better, but it increases the perception of downtown. Hudson will still see improvements as a part of P180, being 1 block from the Robinson line, and other initiatives--but the streetcar riders get to experience that romantic idea of gliding up Broadway. I think that's important. I'm not attacking Hudson, because it does have the bus hub, cultural amenities, and Devon--but I just don't see it as a "must do."

Betts--I think there are enormous opportunities along 23rd for a destination. I would argue it is further along than Paseo. If we make Paseo an initial destination, you've got art galleries and 4 restaurants, and I don't see that being all that much of an anchor. Uptown 23rd has just as many restaurants, an arts presence, and legitimate diversification in terms of locally-owned businesses of all stripes..several Asian food joints, antique shops, Big Truck Tacos, Cheever's, the Blue Note, the Tower Theater, the Gold Dome (Prohibition Room, et al), tattoo parlors, Market C, designers and architect offices, dog parlors, hair salons, Cuppies & Joe and other Cottage tenants, and more.

There's actually a sizable amount of development underway along 23rd as well--the Phase 2 of the 23rd Street Cottages is u/c behind Cuppies and Joe, the Sun Moon Plaza, the Tower Theater, and so on. More importantly there is a strong amount of residential density along the fringes of Heritage Hills/Mesta Park and J. Park/Paseo..a lot of the old apt bldgs have been immaculately renovated in the last 10 years. 23rd's streetscape project and the old storefronts would also strongly compliment a streetcar environment. The tracks could be laid where the parallel parking currently is, because as Uptown 23rd grows parking is going to have to be addressed anyway. Surface parking could be added behind the storefronts where there are some vacant lots on the south side of 24th Street, or across from the Tower Theater, etc.

[Spartan]

I really don't see much along 23rd street. Why not send it south to Capitol Hill? Around 25th & Robinson? I bet you would get more ridership from that area than you would from NW 23rd st. area. I never see any diagrams of the streetcar going south. Why is that? That area has far more poor people without transportation than prob. anywhere in the city but I never hear a thing about the streetcar going down there.

As a southsider, the problem with going south out of downtown in Phase 1 is the void between downtown and Capitol Hill. That's a lot of empty space to transverse that won't be developed for 20 years if we're lucky to focus a Phase 1 on. There are "poor people" without transportation as well as people who decide to live car-free of their own volition every where you go. There are a lot of them around 23rd which is about as inner city as it gets in OKC.

What do you not see along 23rd that you do see elsewhere? If you don't think there's that much along 23rd, would you mind listing what you think are the potential list of attractions along 23rd and compare it to a list for a comparable alternative?

The city has never said there will be future phases, but people intimate with the streetcar phase have said it is necessary to a successful streetcar transit approach. We can make it serve the whole city, we just can't do it with one phase. The city council wants to sit there on the bench and make heavy criticisms about the route because it doesn't serve the whole city without talking about how many phases and miles they're willing to fund. Pete White is lying through his teeth if he wants to say something has changed for the worse, because nothing has changed. He knew all along it would be $130M for 6 miles including support facilities and staff and a multi modal transit hub and a bunch of other stuff we can build on for the future, and that has never changed and won't, we hope (unless the bids come in below projections).

What we need is to stop arguing over the short-term plan and work together to form a long-term plan and then make concessions about what makes the first round, in exchange for commitments to fund the future.

[Rover]

It seems to me that you have to consider both where riders are coming from and where they want to go. I would be surprised if there is a current demand for riders from the Capital Hill area to downtown for working, banking, or entertainment, whereas the 23rd street area probably does have. Has the migration pattern been really investigated and forecast? Who is likely to want to, and need to go where.

[Spartan]

It seems to me that you have to consider both where riders are coming from and where they want to go. I would be surprised if there is a current demand for riders from the Capital Hill area to downtown for working, banking, or entertainment, whereas the 23rd street area probably does have. Has the migration pattern been really investigated and forecast? Who is likely to want to, and need to go where.

Hadn't even considered that, and that's an excellent point, Rover. People in Capitol Hill aren't so much wanting to go downtown for the evening as they're wanting to go to the grocery store or to work, which is most likely somewhere else on the southside. I think a Capitol Hill line would be a lot more successful if it's done in conjunction with somewhere else on the southside, and not so much as a connection to downtown. I'm not saying people on 23rd only want to go downtown or that 23rd is part of downtown whereas Capitol Hill isn't, but it's easy to see strong interaction between 23rd Uptown and downtown. It's not that they're gentrified, because we all know 23rd has grit, it's just that 23rd has such a strong mix and a positive trajectory as an up-and-coming area that it's a better fit if we have to include something along with downtown.

We can't stray so far from the reservation on this that we're making this anything other than a downtown circulator in Phase 1. Uptown 23rd is a natural progression from that and has extremely close proximity, less than a mile away, that it makes sense. Anywhere else, I'd have to see a strong argument for.

[Kerry]

Let me add one thing - this isn't just about poor people having mass transit. The goal is not to provide streetcars to poor people. The goal is to provide a means of transportation that allows, and encourages, higher density development in all income ranges. It is just as important to get Joe off of his rusted bicycle as it is to get Bob out of his stretch limo. Streetcar riderships transcends all economic groups.

I have a friend that works for major corporation in downtown Atlanta and he rides MARTA to work. He sees the CEO of his company on it everyday. Sitting at the same seat are people with $8 per hour jobs and people with 8 figure jobs. OKC needs more of that.

[Spartan]

Let me add one thing - this isn't just about poor people having mass transit. The goal is not to provide streetcars to poor people. The goal is to provide a means of transportation that allows, and encourages, higher density development in all income ranges. It is just as important to get Joe off of his rusted bicycle as it is to get Bob out of his stretch limo. Streetcar riderships transcends all economic groups.

I have a friend that works for major corporation in downtown Atlanta and he rides MARTA to work. He sees the CEO of his company on it everyday. Sitting at the same seat are people with $8 per hour jobs and people with 8 figure jobs. OKC needs more of that.

The wording of this is kind of odd, but I agree. I wouldn't say it's not about poor people though. It's about making downtown more accessible to poor people, and not just confining them to poor people areas. It's about making downtown viable for that incredible mixture of diversity that we're already seeing take root downtown. A certain neighborhood does not have a monopoly on poor people, so we don't have to be bound by socioeconomic boundaries in order for this to serve the people who need transit most. What this will do is tear down the socioeconomic boundaries and bring more people of every type into the city center. It will be a change that eventually radiates outward and effects the entire city.

[Meaculpa]

The streetcar is going to be a downtown circulator. It's going to be double track, therefore, 3 miles at the most.
It will not serve the needs of the transportation needy.
It will look very sexy on flyers the city and The Chamber prints.
This has already been decided. The public meetings are designed to lead the participants to the way it was already planned, not the other way.
The MAPS Streetcar subcommitte is told what to expect.

I'm not being cynical nor do I want to sound like a know it all. Everyone on this thread is excited and interested. So am I.

[ou48A]

Anything built now needs to be compatible with future expansion and with other types of transit options.
For example if commuter rail is developed a trolley line or light rail from a hub station to the Capitol and OUHSC would be feasible.

In the end if we want a successful system we need to be sure and keep things like this and speed of service in mine from the very start.

[Spartan]

The streetcar is going to be a downtown circulator. It's going to be double track, therefore, 3 miles at the most.
It will not serve the needs of the transportation needy.
It will look very sexy on flyers the city and The Chamber prints.
This has already been decided. The public meetings are designed to lead the participants to the way it was already planned, not the other way.
The MAPS Streetcar subcommitte is told what to expect.

I'm not being cynical nor do I want to sound like a know it all. Everyone on this thread is excited and interested. So am I.

I tend to believe we're actually starting to get away from double-track. For the north south spine, I think what the leading option is would be a "transit mall" comprised of two separate streets adjacent, such as Robinson and Broadway, all the way from 10th/Park Circle down to the new blvd. Instead of arguing over which downtown neighborhood doesn't make the cut, why don't we forgo rapid service to 3 neighborhoods in the first phase and offer streetcar stops every 15 minutes instead on a single track, and that way the Arts District or Deep Deuce doesn't fail to make the cut.

And if increasing pressure to go beyond downtown mounts, which it seems to be, that can be an opportunity and not a limitation. An opportunity to branch out to 23rd Street or Plaza and offer 15 minute service as well with a single track.

Again, single track vs. double track is something that needs to be revisited. There's no doubt we can go back and double track a single line and upgrade the service frequency, which undoubtedly would be needed along 23rd, but in the starter system, do we need to double track everything? It would seem that we could just double track strategic main parts that would allow for the furthest end of the line to still have relatively fast service.

And it's not so much a matter of how fast the service is but rather how many streetcars we're able to fit onto an individual line without running into each other with bad timing. I don't think you're being cynical, I just think that's where this process was last summer. Of course, I can only pinpoint where last week's thinking was, because things change so fast before it gets out, but it's a rapidly evolving semi-public process that is definitely coming up with some awesome ideas and vetting everything to the max. Jeff and the rest of the subcommittee are doing an awesome job, and AA has been doing alright, too.

[Kerry]

It is going to be double tracked. You can put that issue to rest.

[Spartan]

So what happened to couplets?

[Kerry]

So what happened to couplets?

There might be couplets - but that is still double track. Each half of the couplet will be one-way.

[Urban Pioneer]

The MAPS Streetcar subcommitte is told what to expect.

I'm sorry. This made me laugh. Particullarly in light of the last two council meetings. If we've been told anything that may influence our goals, it is the opposite of your assertions, to not make it downtown centric and try to connect to something "meaningful" at the other end... And that will be debated further.

[betts]

It looks like I started typing about the time Urban Pioneer posted his comment above:

I think there are enough reasons to consider couplets for that to be far more likely than double track. Nothing has been decided on a route yet, although hopefully there will be a tentative route soon. Remember, any route that is determined will have to be evaluated from an engineering standpoint, and I wouldn't be shocked to find out there are certain things we cannot do from an engineering standpoint and that compromises will need to be made.

Kerry, although I think now MARTA has a more balanced ridership, that happened when fuel prices last skyrocketed. Before that, MARTA was primarily seen as mass transit for the poor and, like alot of people in Oklahoma City think, it was felt to be transit for those who couldn't afford a car. That is something that needs to be avoided in Oklahoma City, as we've already got that problem with bus ridership perceptions here.

Ideally, to me, we'll have a extended downtown circulator, because that's where many of our leisure time venues for the city are and will be, with an initial attempt to reach out to at least one residential and/or commercial area outside downtown. I am hoping we will ultimately have a plan for expansion to multiple areas that people can see and get excited about and that will be the foundation for attempts to obtain federal money, a MAPS 4 proposal ultimately, etc. Like Core to Shore, I think we have to look on improved mass transit in the city as an ongoing process. I'm not sure there's a quick fix, although that shouldn't stop us from looking at ways to improve existing mass transit as we work towards a cohesive plan involving multiple types of mass transit.

[Kerry]

Kerry, although I think now MARTA has a more balanced ridership, that happened when fuel prices last skyrocketed. Before that, MARTA was primarily seen as mass transit for the poor and, like alot of people in Oklahoma City think, it was felt to be transit for those who couldn't afford a car. That is something that needs to be avoided in Oklahoma City, as we've already got that problem with bus ridership perceptions here.

It depends on which MARTA line you ride. Poor people have NEVER been the primary riders on the north portion of the Red Line. Now granted, there is a reason why there is not an express train from downtown to the airport. If they did, the south half of the system would become very scary.

[betts]

It depends on which MARTA line you ride. Poor people have NEVER been the primary riders on the north portion of the Red Line. Now granted, there is a reason why there is not an express train from downtown to the airport. If they did, the south half of the system would become very scary.

I will disagree with you. My daughter used to work up near the Perimeter Mall and lived down near the Metropolitan Parkway in Capitol Hill Manor. Until the rapid increase in gas prices occurred, she refused to ride MARTA up to work, even though the line stopped less than a block from where she worked. I rode it many times up to meet her after work and it was filled with poor people. We finally got her to use it one day when she was worried about how to get to the airport from work in time to catch a flight. Her parents, who live in OKC, both said in unison, "Take MARTA", as we knew driving would take an hour and a half. She said, "Wow, I never thought of that". She took it and once gas prices got too high, began to take it to work. Her comment then was, "You won't believe all the people who are now taking MARTA because of high gas prices".

The perception of who the streetcar serves is key. It has to be seen as transit for everyone from the day it opens, especially in Oklahoma City, which has such a negative attitude towards mass transit. Obviously mass transit has to exist for people who cannot afford a car. But it also needs to be seen as an alternative to a car by those who have one if we are going to move towards becoming a city with a functional mass transit system.

[okclee]

If we see the extension out of downtown as an attractive destination for people, what does 23rd offer in your opinion? I see it as about more than just getting somewhere. There has to be a somewhere to get to.

Uptown 23rd street, has much to offer in many ways; residential density, commercial, historical, diversity, university, and ethnicity. I would suggest having the route travel north along Robinson from 13th to 23rd street, then move west as far as possible, aiming for 23rd and Blackwelder (this would take us directly in front of OCU).

On a side note, something I also have thought about is the future for a MAPS 4 and attracting voters. I believe the ward 2 and specifically precinct 550485 (which is located directly along the Robinson to 23rd street route) had the highest number of MAPS 3 yes votes for one precinct. Something that must be considered if we are wanting to continue with future MAPS improvements, will be to keep voters happy. Again, I believe this is something to think about.