Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[Pete]

Another cause for skepticism about not only Legends Tower but the entire first phase is that the architect -- according to their webpage -- hasn't designed anything more than a couple of projects around 10 stories. That includes dozens of office, hotels, and mixed-use projects where the typical height is 1-4 levels.

https://www.aoarchitects.com/projects

There was to be a 12-story hotel built as part of the District at Warner Center, but nothing has happened with that project (Matteson is not involved).

They were also the architects behind a bunch of surf hotels that Matteson was trying to get off the ground starting about 10 years ago and that have never gone anywhere. He and his partners pitched a big project near Palm Springs when he was trying to get Quicksilver Hotels off the ground and when that never happened he swore he was going to do it without them, but then nada. At the same time, he proposed similar projects for Houston and about a half-dozen other cities that never materialized.

I would sure like to know where he is getting his financing. As far as anyone can tell, he hasn't done anything in a long time and nobody has been able to verify his role in the projects he claims from some time ago.

[jn1780]

Find an architect who hasn't built anything near your vision. Makes sense!

[HOT ROD]

gotta start somewhere, might as well be OKC. And even if it is investors parking money, that benefits OKC.

Keep in mind, Legends tower will be mixed use and IMO mostly be Hyatt Hotel. Residences will be a smaller component - YES, hyper expensive, but I suspect they can find market for it (may take time, yes). In fact, none of the 4 total towers are completely market residential; this is set up for success.

[king183]

gotta start somewhere, might as well be OKC. And even if it is investors parking money, that benefits OKC.

Keep in mind, Legends tower will be mixed use and IMO mostly be Hyatt Hotel. Residences will be a smaller component - YES, hyper expensive, but I suspect they can find market for it (may take time, yes). In fact, none of the 4 total towers are completely market residential; this is set up for success.

Matteson, is that you? Just kidding, of course. I appreciate your optimism and am glad there are people who are naturally optimistic about these things. But naive optimism is exactly why OKC is such a great place to pull off a scam. We still have a bit of an inferiority complex. As a result, people really want to believe the amazing things these developers without a history say and promise, so easy marks aren’t difficult to find. I hope I’m wrong and my skepticism turns out to be unwarranted, but I see all the signs of a scam or another Rainey Williams/OGE situation.

[_Kyle]

^^

[soonerguru]

Another cause for skepticism about not only Legends Tower but the entire first phase is that the architect -- according to their webpage -- hasn't designed anything more than a couple of projects around 10 stories. That includes dozens of office, hotels, and mixed-use projects where the typical height is 1-4 levels.

https://www.aoarchitects.com/projects

There was to be a 12-story hotel built as part of the District at Warner Center, but nothing has happened with that project (Matteson is not involved).

They were also the architects behind a bunch of surf hotels that Matteson was trying to get off the ground starting about 10 years ago and that have never gone anywhere. He and his partners pitched a big project near Palm Springs when he was trying to get Quicksilver Hotels off the ground and when that never happened he swore he was going to do it without them, but then nada. At the same time, he proposed similar projects for Houston and about a half-dozen other cities that never materialized.

I would sure like to know where he is getting his financing. As far as anyone can tell, he hasn't done anything in a long time and nobody has been able to verify his role in the projects he claims from some time ago.

Maybe a bit alarming but their design work is excellent. Would love to see them doing some of the mixed-use developments around OKC.

[5alive]

I really like the design/style of their work

[PhiAlpha]

gotta start somewhere, might as well be OKC. And even if it is investors parking money, that benefits OKC.

Keep in mind, Legends tower will be mixed use and IMO mostly be Hyatt Hotel. Residences will be a smaller component - YES, hyper expensive, but I suspect they can find market for it (may take time, yes). In fact, none of the 4 total towers are completely market residential; this is set up for success.

I can confidently say that there's not enough of a market of any kind in OKC for the tallest tower in the US. If there was, people would be tripping over themselves to build apartments and condos here. Dowell wouldn't still be empty and we wouldn't have a bunch of empty office space downtown. Optimism is fine but blind optimism and sunshine pumping just makes you sound goofy. I'm increasingly skeptical that any of this is going to be built or if it is, it will look nothing like what we've been shown. More red flags than a communist party convention in China.'

It sucks but I think some people here are hardcore setting themselves up for disappointment here.

[CatholicSooner]

I can confidently say that there's not enough of a market of any kind in OKC for the tallest tower in the US. If there was, people would be tripping over themselves to build apartments and condos here. Dowell wouldn't still be empty and we wouldn't have a bunch of empty office space downtown. Optimism is fine but blind optimism and sunshine pumping just makes you sound goofy. I'm increasingly skeptical that any of this is going to be built or if it is, it will look nothing like what we've been shown. More red flags than a communist party convention in China.'

It sucks but I think some people here are hardcore setting themselves up for disappointment here.

maybe so...but somebody posted data earlier showing that for a top 20 city, we were well below the average vacancy level.

[Pete]

Rents decline in Oklahoma, defy national trend
By: Kathryn McNutt//The Journal Record//February 23, 2024//

The national rental market trended upward, with median asking rents rising 1.1% since January 2023, according to the latest report from Rent.com.

January’s jump marks the largest rent increase since March of 2023 and the first time rents have climbed above 1 percentage point in as much time.

The report shows the current national median price for an apartment is $1,964, up from $1,942 in January 2023.

Rent.com analyzed rental property prices from its available inventory to identify the median rent prices at the national, state and metro levels. The analysis combines rent levels for all apartment types from studio apartments to multiple-bedroom units.

On a state level, 71.4% of markets saw positive yearly rent growth in January, but Oklahoma’s median rent was $993 – a decline of 1.89% year-over-year and 1.8% from December.

It was the 10th largest decline nationally. Oregon, where average rents are currently $1,684, witnessed the largest yearly rent decline at 7.97%, followed by Florida at 7.78% with a median rent of $2,086.

Missouri experienced the largest annual rent increases. In January, rents there rose by 13.18% to a median price of $1,209. The second-highest yearly increase on a state level was in New Hampshire, where rents rose by 12.41% to $2,099.

The analysis also looked at the top 50 metropolitan areas determined by U.S. Census Bureau population estimates for 2023.

Oklahoma City’s median rent in January was $1,179, down 1.32% year-over-year and 1.42% month-over-month, according to the report.

Leading yearly metro rent declines in January was Austin, Texas, where apartment rents dropped by 14.27% to a median price of $1,926. Raleigh, North Caroline, had the second sharpest decline nationally, with rents dropping by 13.17% year-over-year to $1,840.

The city with the largest gain among U.S. metros was Providence, Rhode Island, which saw 20% rent growth, with current asking rents at $2,708. Not far behind, asking rents in St. Louis climbed to 17.74% year-over-year to $1,806.

“Gazing out at the wider rental panorama, January’s modest gains suggest a market in moderation after the breakneck rent growth of the COVID 19 pandemic. Between late 2021 and 2022, rent prices saw gains of 11.5%,” author Anthony Gardner said in the report.

“Since September 2022, national rents have cooled considerably, in part due to a construction boom which has resulted in oversupply and stubbornly high vacancies,” Gardner said. “Vacancy rates stood at 6.6% in the final quarter of 2023, posing challenges for landlords and property management companies hesitant to raise rents in a saturated marketplace.”

Oklahoma City’s vacancy rate was 10.2% in the fourth quarter of 2023, according to MMG Real Estate Advisors.



This is for Q1 2023; OKC's rate went up to 10.2% in the 4th Q as mentioned above.

https://managecasa.com/articles/us-r...cupancy-rates/
US Rental Vacancy Rate
US Major Metro Area (data courtesy of Census.gov)
Vacancy Rate Q1, 2023
Charleston-North Charleston-Summerville, SC……………………. 15.3%
Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD ………………. 12.8
Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX ………………. 12.3
Birmingham-Hoover, AL……………………………………………………………….. 11.9
North Port-Bradenton-Sarasota, FL……………………………………………….. 11.8
Little Rock-North Little Rock-Conway, AR………………………………………. 11.2
Indianapolis-Carmel-Anderson, IN…………………………………………………. 10.9
Raleigh, NC24……………………………………………………………………………….. 10.9
Dallas-Ft. Worth-Arlington, TX……………………………………………………… 10.8
Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI …………………………………… 10.1
Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Franklin, TN…………………………….. 9.9
Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA……………………………………………. 9.8
New Orleans-Metairie, LA……………………………………………………………. 9.6
Albany-Schenectady-Troy, NY ……………………………………………………….. 9.5
Oklahoma City, OK………………………………………………………………………. 9.4
Kansas City, MO-KS……………………………………………………………………… 8.7
Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL……………………………………………. 8.7
Tulsa, OK…………………………………………………………………………………….. 8.7
Richmond, VA………………………………………………………………………………. 8.6
Tucson, AZ …………………………………………………………………………………. 8.4
Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI……………………………………………………. 8.3
San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX………………………………………………… 8.2
Cape Coral-Fort Myers, FL…………………………………………………………….. 8
Jacksonville, FL……………………………………………………………………………. 7.5
Austin-Round Rock, TX………………………………………………………………… 7.3
Baton Rouge, LA………………………………………. 7
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, …………………………….. 7
St. Louis, MO-IL……………………………………………………………………………. 6.9
Pittsburgh, PA………………………………………………………………………………. 6.8
Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, ………………………….. 6.8
Columbus, OH……………………………………………………………………………… 6.4
Toledo, OH……………………………………………….. 6.3
Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN7…………………………………………………………………. 5.9
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA……………………………………………… 5.9
Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA …………………………………….. 5.6
Salt Lake City, UT……………………………………………………………………….. 5.6
Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, PA-NJ…………………………………………… 5.5
Dayton, OH………………………………………………………………………………… 5.5
Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise, NV…………………………………………… 5.5
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV………………………. 5.5
Memphis, TN-AR-MS………………………………………………………………….. 5.3
Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ……………………………………………………….. 5.2
Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT…………………………………… 5
Albuquerque, NM………………………………………………………………………. 4.9
Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA……………………………………….. 4.9
Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-W………………………………………….. 4.7
San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA………………………………………. 4.7
Knoxville, TN……………………………………………………………………………. 4.6
Providence-Warwick, RI-MA…………………………………………………… 4.6
Sacramento-Roseville-Arden-Arcade, CA………………………………… 4.6
Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC………………………………………… 4.5
Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL……………………………………………. 4.5
Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD …………………. 4.5
Urban Honolulu, HI………………………………………………………………. 4.5
Greensboro-High Point, NC……………………………………………………….. 4.4
Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO…………………………………………………. 4.1
New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ………………………………. 4.1
Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT……………………………………………. 4
Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Niagara Falls, NY4…………………………………. 3.8
Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI…………………………………………………….. 3.8
Omaha-Council Bluffs, NE-IA………………………………………………….. 3.8
Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI…………………………… 3.7
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, ………………………………….. 3.5
New Haven-Milford, CT…………………………………………………………… 3.5
Akron, OH ……………………………………………………………………………. 3.3
San Diego-Carlsbad, ……………………………………………………… 3.3
Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA…………………………………………………… 3.3
Syracuse, NY…………………………………………. 3.1
Columbia, SC…………………………………………. 2.9
Fresno, CA……………………………………………… 2.9
Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH3……………………………………… 2.7
Cleveland-Elyria, OH8……………………………………………………………. 2.5
Rochester, NY………………………………………………………………………. 2.5
Worcester, MA………………………………………………………………………. 1.7
Louisville/Jefferson County, KY-IN…………………………………………….. 1.2

[PhiAlpha]

maybe so...but somebody posted data earlier showing that for a top 20 city, we were well below the average vacancy level.

For what?

[mrokc777]

I would certainly consider purchasing or renting at Legends Tower due to its impressive building's status as the tallest in the US, along with several other factors, makes it a top choice for me. However, I am not interested in other locations in or near downtown due to lack of interest in current and upcoming developments, as well as the limited amenities within walking distance from available living spaces downtown.

[jn1780]

I would certainly consider purchasing or renting at Legends Tower due to its impressive building's status as the tallest in the US, along with several other factors, makes it a top choice for me. However, I am not interested in other locations in or near downtown due to lack of interest in current and upcoming developments, as well as the limited amenities within walking distance from available living spaces downtown.

I just don't think impressive building status would be enough to makeup for this especially when people look at the price tag. Its easy to say, "I want to live in OKC's tallest building" before bringing money to the discussion. How much are bragging rights worth?

[mrokc777]

I understand your point, but in my opinion, I wouldn't choose to live in downtown OKC unless something like whats getting purpose here gets built. If I have the financial means to acquire a residence in Legends Tower, why wouldn't I?

[PhiAlpha]

I would certainly consider purchasing or renting at Legends Tower due to its impressive building's status as the tallest in the US, along with several other factors, makes it a top choice for me. However, I am not interested in other locations in or near downtown due to lack of interest in current and upcoming developments, as well as the limited amenities within walking distance from available living spaces downtown.

Yeah I get that there will be a handful of people like you who have the money (I'm assuming) and want to live in a premium space like that, I just don't think there are anywhere near enough to fill 134 floors with 20-30 apartments/condos each.

[HOT ROD]

so there's 3 of us now. ...

and to be clear, there wont be 134 floors of condos. There will be a signfiicant amount of floors (maybe half) dedicated to the new Hyatt Hotel, and 6 floors shown as Observation/Observation Restaurant, and of course the 5 floor podium. Therefore, I estimate there will be appx 60 floors of condo residences and hotel-condos, which IS very significant BUT I'd argue there will be market for if nothing else to just be in or invest in the tallest building in the US/Western Hemisphere (regardless of it being in OKC or not).

[Swake]

so there's 3 of us now. ...

and to be clear, there wont be 134 floors of condos. There will be a signfiicant amount of floors (maybe half) dedicated to the new Hyatt Hotel, and 6 floors shown as Observation/Observation Restaurant, and of course the 5 floor podium. Therefore, I estimate there will be appx 60 floors of condo residences and hotel-condos, which IS very significant BUT I'd argue there will be market for if nothing else to just be in or invest in the tallest building in the US/Western Hemisphere (regardless of it being in OKC or not).

Do you have $50 million to put into a condo? And several hundred thousand a year in condo fees?

[mrokc777]

Where did you come up with the figure of 20-30 units per floor?

[jn1780]

Not to state the obvious, but OKC talk is not where I would go to get survey data. We all have special interest in these kind of topics so that survey would be bias.

[bison34]

Do you have $50 million to put into a condo? And several hundred thousand a year in condo fees?

What planet are you on thinking one will cost that much in OKC? Look at what Austin charges, with more expensive construction costs.

[PhiAlpha]

Where did you come up with the figure of 20-30 units per floor?

A guess based on other highrise apartment/condo developments I've been around.

[Swake]

What planet are you on thinking one will cost that much in OKC? Look at what Austin charges, with more expensive construction costs.

They will not cost that much in OKC because they won't be built. But that IS how much such a building will have to charge for a good portion of the condos to make the building financially viable, regardless of location. The one supertall building planned for Austin, which I cannot find unit pricing for, is planned to be just over half as tall as this thing.

[KayneMo]

6 penthouse units per floor for the top seven floors, and 12 units (8 one-bedroom units and 4 two-bedroom units) per floor for the rest of the tower, according to the concept package from December.

[BDP]

From 12/2022:

The Most Expensive Condo for Sale in Austin Is Now This $17 Million Aerie

Here's NYC in 2022:

Premium Selection: The 20 Greatest New York Penthouses

[stlokc]

Interesting. So the majority of units in this building are actually planned to be one-bedroom units?

I would be curious how that ratio compares to other projects around town or even in other cities. Is there more demand for units that have one bedroom as a result of market demographics or lack of existing inventory? Anecdotally, I feel like most people, especially those buying rather than renting, would want a second bedroom for use as a guest room, an office, or even a bedroom for a child/roommate. But surely they have done the analysis.