Penn Square Mall

[Mississippi Blues]

And none of that will be done, ever.

I highly doubt he or anyone else thought there was a chance that would happen.

[mugofbeer]

And none of that will be done, ever.

I disagree. There is a highly successful mixed use mall redevelopment near where l live that used much of the old mall structure. In place of the department stores are apartments and condominiums, a Whole Foods, misc small stores and many restaurants including a few pads nearer the street. The surrounding area has similar demographics to PSM if not a bit lower income on average. They didn't spend a billion $, but it is very well done.

[bison34]

I disagree. There is a highly successful mixed use mall redevelopment near where l live that used much of the old mall structure. In place of the department stores are apartments and condominiums, a Whole Foods, misc small stores and many restaurants including a few pads nearer the street. The surrounding area has similar demographics to PSM if not a bit lower income on average. They didn't spend a billion $, but it is very well done.

Simon hasn't spent any money on Penn is years. It might as well not exist to them. So many of their malls have gotten renovations or additions. Penn Square? Nothing, zip, nada.

[mugofbeer]

They have no $ but that is incentive to sell to a developer who does.

[Dob Hooligan]

They have no $ but that is incentive to sell to a developer who does.

Penn Square provides free cash flow for Simon and is a clean, well functioning property. I would think Simon would see how Oak affects the area before they would consider any expenditure.

[Celebrator]

I disagree. There is a highly successful mixed use mall redevelopment near where l live that used much of the old mall structure. In place of the department stores are apartments and condominiums, a Whole Foods, misc small stores and many restaurants including a few pads nearer the street. The surrounding area has similar demographics to PSM if not a bit lower income on average. They didn't spend a billion $, but it is very well done.

Care to link us to that complex? I would love to see what it looks like.

[bombermwc]

I recently went to Penn for the first time in I think like 8 years or so.

The place is stuck in time for sure. You can tell there has been zero investment since the renovations in 2000-2001. That being said, it's still well kept, clean, and nothing looks like it majorlly needs any TLC or anything like that. They have re-done the food court at least a couple of times.

What I can see is that the stores in the place are starting to move towards the lower end of the stick. Penn had been known for having some more of the upper end of "mall stores" that you wouldn't have found in other places in OKC. Well, i think those days are going to the wayside. I was surprised to see that even the Banana Republic store is gone. What came in its place, kept the store build out and looks like a nice store still at least. But it's still a local mom-and-pop. When those start being more prevalent in a mall, the writing is on the wall for the eventual end.

I may be calling myself out as old now, but the population of customers also seemed a little more rough than they used to. I'm not sure if its just because the way people dress in general now is more relaxed after COVID with holey sweat pants and generally grunge being sort of cool again and where PJ bottoms are acceptable public wear now. My family laughed at me for saying this stuff while i was there since im in my 40's and not my 70s. LOL

The department anchors, well none of them ever do anything to do any sort of renovations on their stores....ever, in any mall. The same carpet that was installed when it opened, is the stuff that will be there when it closes. Stains and rips and all. I really wish these stores would go to carpet squares so they can at least pop them out....and not use light colored carpet too. Especially Macys is looking ROOOOUGH! And the inventory in these departments stores is so thin now. Just walking through, where you used to be crammed in with so much you could barely walk, now you could walk a semi truck through the things.

So the building itself, looks to be in fine condition. But my confidence in the place in terms of what's happening in there...not high. Simon is still taking in great profit from rents. They have no reason right now to do anything other than continue as they are. Putting millions into some sort of inside renovation wouldn't do them any good. It wouldn't attract more customers. Stores attract customers. And right now, malls are not what's attracting them. There is way too much competition out there from curbside.

On a personal note, i actual prefer malls myself. Park once and walk inside the rest. I tend to walk when i go store to store in a stripmall rather than drive between them. But i do prefer the inside walking myself. Again, i'm old.....

[BoulderSooner]

I recently went to Penn for the first time in I think like 8 years or so.

The place is stuck in time for sure. You can tell there has been zero investment since the renovations in 2000-2001.
..

this is simply not true

[bison34]

this is simply not true

How is it not true? They may have thrown a few bucks at it, but the interior really hasn't been touch in 2 decades. A new entrance was added, (or one was redone) but that is about it. Simon doesn't care if the mall lives or dies, because they haven't really helped it out at all.

[Pete]

How is it not true? They may have thrown a few bucks at it, but the interior really hasn't been touch in 2 decades. A new entrance was added, (or one was redone) but that is about it. Simon doesn't care if the mall lives or dies, because they haven't really helped it out at all.

It's remained almost fully leased while almost every other mall -- including all the rest in the state -- is barely hanging on or has failed.

They added Whiskey Cake, Cheesecake Factory, Container Store, Texas de Brasil... Urban Outfitters will open next month.


For the life of me, I don't understand why people insist on running down that mall. It still draws huge crowds and they've done a great job replacing tenants with new ones.

Not many companies are pumping millions into mall remodels right now.

[BoulderSooner]

How is it not true? They may have thrown a few bucks at it, but the interior really hasn't been touch in 2 decades. A new entrance was added, (or one was redone) but that is about it. Simon doesn't care if the mall lives or dies, because they haven't really helped it out at all.

there was a 78 million dollar renovation in 2013

[dhpersonal]

On a personal note, i actual prefer malls myself. Park once and walk inside the rest. I tend to walk when i go store to store in a stripmall rather than drive between them. But i do prefer the inside walking myself. Again, i'm old.....

Don't beat yourself up; malls were an attempt at building an actual decent American city experience — just inside a building. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oooVC3zfDc8

[bison34]

there was a 78 million dollar renovation in 2013

Then I stand corrected on fact, but it still looks outdated, and needs a refresh. And expansion, which can't happen, unfortunately.

[bison34]

It's remained almost fully leased while almost every other mall -- including all the rest in the state -- is barely hanging on or has failed.

They added Whiskey Cake, Cheesecake Factory, Container Store, Texas de Brasil... Urban Outfitters will open next month.


For the life of me, I don't understand why people insist on running down that mall. It still draws huge crowds and they've done a great job replacing tenants with new ones.

Not many companies are pumping millions into mall remodels right now.

Not really meaning to run it down. It's good for what it is. But for an upscale mall, which it has always tried to bill itself as, having one of the worst Macy's in the chain and a rundown JcPenney (granted, all JCP stores seem rundown) doesn't help the look.

Not bashing you or anyone, just giving my opinion. I think the mall can improve, and will have to once OAK opens.

[dhpersonal]

https://okcretail.com/successstories/penn-square-mall/

Alexander works to recruit high-end retail to Penn Square Mall’s growing list of stores in Oklahoma City, a city that he views as an extension of the Dallas retail market.

“Many national retailers, particularly some of the top-tier luxury retailers, certainly don’t have Oklahoma on their hit list, and our job is to convince them that it should be,” he said. “We find a lot of interest once the tenants realize what the sales per square foot coming out of Oklahoma City are. It’s been such a great success story, that I guess, in some respects, it sells itself.”

Oklahoma City’s retail market has allowed Penn Square Mall to thrive as one of Simon’s best portfolio assets. Penn Square’s steady growth enabled Simon to invest $78 million in their 2013 renovation.

“In this part of the country, this is one of the best malls that we have in our portfolio,” Alexander said. “This mall produces sales per square foot higher than some of the very top regional malls in the DFW market. We’ve seen growth in sales every year that we have owned the mall. It is a great market for us.”

Wow, I had no idea. I've only ever visited the mall to visit the Apple store, which is right next to one of the entrances, so I didn't know it was doing so well. After reading reports of shootings I've not been eager to go inside, either.

[Pete]

Not really meaning to run it down. It's good for what it is. But for an upscale mall, which it has always tried to bill itself as, having one of the worst Macy's in the chain and a rundown JcPenney (granted, all JCP stores seem rundown) doesn't help the look.

Not bashing you or anyone, just giving my opinion. I think the mall can improve, and will have to once OAK opens.

Who said it's an upscale mall?

It's a typical, mainstream mall and a very successful one -- many times more successful than any other in the state or in most states.


Macy's being crap is down to their entire business being in the toilet, not PSM. Same with JC Penney. The two Dillards stores in that mall are very nice and stuffed with merchandise.

[dhpersonal]

Who said it's an upscale mall?

I think some of that confusion can be blamed on Simon Mall’s branding: they seem to use the same style for both their high-end malls and their failing suburban locations.

[Pete]

Almost all violent crime is not random -- it happens between people who know each other.

There are shootings almost everywhere people gather: downtown, Bricktown, Midtown, HS football games... People minding their own business have absolutely nothing to worry about and if you went in the mall you'd see that for yourself. I go in there frequently and have never felt remotely unsafe -- nor have I anywhere in OKC.

[dhpersonal]

Almost all violent crime is not random -- it happens between people who know each other.

There are shootings almost everywhere people gather: downtown, Bricktown, Midtown, HS football games...

I'm not worried about someone targeting me randomly, I’m worried that someone who decides to shoot at another person misses and hits me instead.

[Pete]

I'm not worried about someone targeting me randomly, I’m worried that someone who decides to shoot at another person misses and hits me instead.

Then, by my point, you shouldn't go to any public places because given the amount of people, PSM is no worse than any other in OKC.

[OkieBerto]

I was recently at Penn Square mainly to have dinner at Pepperoni Grill, but then we decided to walk around a look. Both Pepperoni Grill and the mall were busy. It was a cold rainy night, yet there were plenty of people out shopping. Sure there are plenty of stores in there that don't really seem to fit, but it hasn't kept people from shopping there. The food court is always busy as well. I am not a huge fan of malls, but it was a nice night there.

[PhiAlpha]

I'm not worried about someone targeting me randomly, I’m worried that someone who decides to shoot at another person misses and hits me instead.

How many days has the mall been open? How many days have involved any kind of random or targeted acts of violence there?

Better not leave your house. Road rage happens too and much more frequently.

People afraid to go to Penn Square make me laugh. Such misplaced fear over a few random incidents. Make sure not to hang your feet over the edge of the bed either, the monsters under it might get ya!

[PhiAlpha]

I think some of that confusion can be blamed on Simon Mall’s branding: they seem to use the same style for both their high-end malls and their failing suburban locations.

Who is confused? It’s the highest end mall in OKC which is fairly indisputable but no one is out there trying to compare it to north park in Dallas.

[Zorba]

I enjoy going and walking around Penn Square, the only good walkable retail in OKC . Usually pay to get beat up at Oriental Chi. Eat at Pepperoni Grill a lot too. Occasionally go to the AMC. It's a nice place, I really don't think it seems out of date or in need of major improvements at all

[bombermwc]

Penn absolutely was viewed in the OKC market as "the" upscale mall. THe stores that you found there were the higher end clothing (or at least more expensive) than you would have found at Heritage or Crossroads or Norman.

I would argue that the money that's been put in, didn't actually do anything to attract business that keep that label. Most of the stores that have been listed are NOT inside, but are outparcels that are curbside businesses, not mall. Yes, it goes to Simon's bottom line for the facility, but it's not inside the actual mall. If the mall itself closed, they would continue to operate. That's not the same thing. And the entrance isn't something that i would consider was an "investment" either.

I also didn't say it was run-down. In fact, i said it was still well maintained. There have not been widespread renovations to the public areas in 20 years. But I also feel like they are needed. Yeah the tile is cracked in a lot of places, but it's far from looking work down. What I commented was about was the store directory. Compare that to what it was in 2000 and it's basically a whole tier lower than it was before. It's nowhere near dead. But i do think that Simon is aware of the fact that putting millions into it, is not going to put customers back inside. It's just the beginning of what will be a very long and drawn out end.

When was the last time you went to Penn Square and the parking lot was absolutely packed on a Saturday (and it wasn't Christmas)? That's extremely telling folks. Because that used to be every weekend.