Streetcar

[Kerry]

Here is my plan with stop included. This is all done with just 7 miles of track. Sorry, but I could not get it all to fit in one picture and still the stops.

North half


South half

[Urban Pioneer]

What parts are "double tracked?" Are any of them single track?

[Kerry]

What parts are "double tracked?" Are any of them single track?

It is all double track except for the loop that goes around the Civic Center. The loop is single track following the flow of traffic. One correction, since I added the black line total length is now just under 8 miles.

[Spartan]

Kerry, I don't understand that map. I realize it's absolutely hopeless to try and post a map because right now this thread is being inundated by everyone posting their user-generated maps which in some cases look really rough, but to address yours, I just don't see where it goes. Why is the jail a destination? I would want the streetcar to avoid it, honestly. And I don't understand the north end of Phase 1 just dropping off in the middle of Heritage Hills. Especially along Walker, whereas I could almost understand making Robinson in HH a destination (which Rob actually is decent density w/ apartment buildings all the way up to 17th).

[Kerry]

Why is the jail a destination? I would want the streetcar to avoid it, honestly.

The jail is a major employment and activity center. Not everyone in the jail is a criminal and no inmates would be riding the streetcar. Also, at that corner is the Okahoma City Municipal Courts which is another major employer and activity center. I think the police department and City 911 serive center is there also, not to mention several other City offices. Because the street around that area is one-way the streetcar has to make a loop anyhow and not having a stop their would be, well, rude.

And I don't understand the north end of Phase 1 just dropping off in the middle of Heritage Hills. Especially along Walker, whereas I could almost understand making Robinson in HH a destination (which Rob actually is decent density w/ apartment buildings all the way up to 17th).

The reason I choose to go up Walker is that you have to maximize the usage of track. Since I had the streecar going to the Plaza District and St Anthony it made more sense to use the eixsiting track to get to HH and Mesta Park. I would love to get the streetcar all the way to The Paseo (which is off of Walker) but there simply isn't enough track to get there right now. The Walker line also serves The Cline and Mercy Hospital site. One of the challenges in OKC is getting the street car from the urban core to the nearest residential areas without wasting a lot of track. As I looked at system around the world most of then have (or had at one time) spurs that went into residential areas and stopped. You can really see this in places like Oslo (which I have mentioned many times) becasue they actually used a turn around loop. Since this is just phase one the track will eventually continue on so I just stopped the track. However, no matter where the track goes it has to stop somewhere. Finally, Mesta Park is not a destination, it is an origination point. The people have to come from somewhere. This system has to be built to serve the people living, working, playing there. It can't rely on weekend visitors from Edmond.

Keep in mind, this is just phase one. If you want to see phase two, three, and four - I have those as well. I even have a Classen line that goes from Belle Isle to St. Anthony to downtown.

[Spartan]

Also, at that corner is the Okahoma City Municipal Courts which is another major employer and activity center. I think the police department and City 911 serive center is there also, not to mention several other City offices.

This is the absolute worst collection of businesses in any direction out from downtown one could possibly find, including going up or down. Core2Shore, err I mean the old Riverside district, has a lot more business activity already than jailville. Furthermore, Sheriff Whetsel IS going to see to it that we have a new jail somewhere else. So then a streetcar line going through a terrible part of downtown intended just to serve the bail bondsmen who must be hungry and looking for Bricktown would absolutely dry up and be a continuous nag on the maintenance, upkeep, and perception of the downtown streetcar system.

The reason I choose to go up Walker is that you have to maximize the usage of track. Since I had the streecar going to the Plaza District and St Anthony it made more sense to use the eixsiting track to get to HH and Mesta Park. I would love to get the streetcar all the way to The Paseo (which is off of Walker) but there simply isn't enough track to get there right now. The Walker line also serves The Cline and Mercy Hospital site. One of the challenges in OKC is getting the street car from the urban core to the nearest residential areas without wasting a lot of track. As I looked at system around the world most of then have (or had at one time) spurs that went into residential areas and stopped. You can really see this in places like Oslo (which I have mentioned many times) becasue they actually used a turn around loop. Since this is just phase one the track will eventually continue on so I just stopped the track. However, no matter where the track goes it has to stop somewhere. Finally, Mesta Park is not a destination, it is an origination point. The people have to come from somewhere. This system has to be built to serve the people living, working, playing there. It can't rely on weekend visitors from Edmond.

Keep in mind, this is just phase one. If you want to see phase two, three, and four - I have those as well. I even have a Classen line that goes from Belle Isle to St. Anthony to downtown.

I think it's debatable about the need to make the downtown streetcar serve anywhere but the handful of square miles that we're currently working with for a downtown. Including Riverside, that's about 3 square miles. I don't think you're being realistic when the assertion of having to connect residential low-density areas to a huge mixed-use scattered-density (for lack of a better term) area implies that downtown is a small and insignificant area. As for Walker, HH and MP especially along Walker do not have the density to justify usage and it is not even a potential destination on the merit of development potential because it is an area historically protected by city ordinances, and for good reason. Walker has about half the apartment buildings as Robinson, and they're closer to 23rd and somewhat dingier. Robinson's are closer to 13th. Also Walker is not conducive to a streetcar and HH residents would probably not appreciate the line there. Robinson is much more conducive to streetcar because of the good-sized median with mature trees, which could quite possibly be an experience akin to the St. Charles Streetcar in NOLA. Robinson also offers development potential, amazingly, because things can still be done in HH East, there are some parking lots on the SE fringe of HH, and towards Broadway is not historically protected anyway.

This is what I keep stressing. You can't expect a complete system to come out of a hodge podge of jumbled parts resembling their own incomplete systems. The starter line is so pivotal that without its success nothing more happens, nothing ever gets completed. The starter route must lead to other good expansions while being whole of just its own self. An imaginary line labeled "Coming Soon" that goes on where the HH line ends does not get people on the streetcar to go up to the Paseo for the sake of the thought being what matters most. That doesn't jive with reality. If Pete White suggested Jeff Bezdek was smoking something when he is making great sense I wonder what Pete White's response to this would be.

[Kerry]

It isn't just the jail on that line Spartan. GO back and look at the stops I have on the map (that is why Iposted it). That segment stops at the Park Harvey, library, County Court House, City Hall, Oklahoma City Museum of Art, Civic Center, City offices, and Oklahoma City Municipal Court. It is also one block from Legacy at Art Quarter.

I suggest you take a shot at Google Earth and watch how fast you run out of track. You only have 6 miles (maybe 8 or 9 if the Feds come through).

[Spartan]

It isn't just the jail on that line Spartan. GO back and look at the stops I have on the map (that is why Iposted it). That segment stops at the Park Harvey, library, County Court House, City Hall, Oklahoma City Museum of Art, Civic Center, City offices, and Oklahoma City Municipal Court. It is also one block from Legacy at Art Quarter.

I suggest you take a shot at Google Earth and watch how fast you run out of track. You only have 6 miles (maybe 8 or 9 if the Feds come through).

Kerry, I've drawn and posted at least 10 routes myself. Jeff told me he's made over 40 or something like that, and that's extremely well-researched routes, on top of that, taking rulers to streets before drawing a single line. There is no shortage of possible route configurations and that is not even important because it will all fall into place based on what we want to do precisely and simply what works to do that. Drawing lines on a map is irrelevant right now except for purposes of demonstrating ideas. Ideas right now, routes later. We have to first have a debate over going beyond downtown. Certainly I say go for it as long as you can do it and still have a complete system and nothing else, and I am not sure that is possible. Demonstrating with a route exactly how it may not be possible doesn't help that.

And now you've retreated to listing attractions in the Arts District which I wholeheartedly support extending service to. But that's like responding to complaints about a line going toward the new Douglass HS by mentioning the attractions in Bricktown on the way.

edit: and in no way was that making a comparison between the jail and the new Douglass HS, so maybe that's an unfortunate attempt at drawing a relevant comparison, so just look at it as point withstanding.

[SkyWestOKC]

I really would hate to see this money go towards building a neighborhood feeder/connector. It really would disappoint me. I really do think and feel we need a DOWNTOWN connector first. When that is established, bring on the nearby neighborhoods, by all means. I also think it is a stretch to even think about making the streetcar expand past a few miles out of downtown. The inconvenience associated with traveling long distance on something that stops frequently, and doesn't move extremely quickly (unless someone wishes to correct me?). Light rail or some other method would be preferred for longer distances.

I still stand by, spend the money to build the best damn system we can to move people around downtown and the nearby districts. Once that is established, we can spend money on riskier (not as high population density or attraction density) routes (jogs) to cross-bleed demand (bring people in downtown to the Paseo for example, and bring people from the Paseo to downtown, etc.). Right now, I don't see the use in spending $100 million dollars, to connect a few miles of low-medium density neighborhoods to downtown. Who are we serving? The few people who live within a few blocks of the streetcar in those neighborhoods? Who are we serving if we use the streetcar as a downtown circulatory system? The answer...all of OKC. Not literally, but most everyone in OKC will go downtown at least once a year, for whatever reason. The average person, more than that -- a couple times a month. And the people who work and live in downtown, a still large number, everyday. Everyone will have the potential to use the system, instead of the limited and privileged few who will live within a few blocks of the streetcar in midtown or the neighborhoods around there we are talking about connecting to downtown right now. I would not get near as much use out of the streetcar if it didn't connect downtown. I'm the average citizen, I am not in the downtown area everyday...but when I am, I would love to be able to be, for example at City Hall...and decide on a whim to go to Bricktown for lunch...go plug my meter for another hour, hop on the streetcar and be in Bricktown in 5-10 minutes...eat lunch...walk around for a little bit...get back on the streetcar and get back to my car without being dog tired from walking or from having to drive my car to bricktown, find a spot (possibly pay $5), and then continue.

Makes no sense to me that everyone on this board (at least the prominent members) claims to be so downtown centric, and super urbanist. But when the opportunity arrives to have a truly functioning and self sustaining downtown transit system, we decide it needs to serve everybody outside of downtown first, with a quick jog through downtown so we can claim it will be a downtown streetcar. Pathetic.

I really do feel if we go with the neighborhood connector system everyone is proposing, this will fail. We know there are people downtown and who visit downtown....lots of employees. Devon Tower, Chase Tower, Mid America Tower, Leadership Square, Sandridge Tower, the city govt., courts, two arenas and a convention center, a regional entertainment district, a few large hotels, a train station, parks, apartments, etc. Why would we NOT want to connect downtown with itself right away. It's pretty much a shot in the barrel that ridership would be good in the downtown core and immediately surrounding areas.

I am not against connecting these neighborhoods into the system in the future, but not right now -- not with a starter system, which is already under scrutiny. We should be wanting to give it the best chance of success we can, so we can connect these neighborhoods in the future. If the streetcar is a success, it will be a no-brainer to voters to approve logical extensions and connections.

Rant over.

[Urban Pioneer]

I started this process with exactly your sentiment. I do believe that the transit mall concept establishes a strong transit corridor that adequately serves most of downtown. The challenge has become political however. Council signs off on our recommendations. While there has been alot of rhetoric about buses, it has been made exceptionately clear that they want us to "stretch" this thing. Several of them do not view it the way you or I do. I believe the downtown belongs to everyone and that the majority of our citizens will have regular, legitimate opportunities to use the system. However, there are those who have decided that this is for a small "elitist" group of people who live downtown. So with that in mind, we have to build a strong core system that connects to other modes of travel and a terminus destination on a phase one plan.

I wish all of council saw it your way, but they all don't. There is more to come. I wouldn't dispair until the numbers are "run through the wringer." We are going to end up with lots of good options.

[Spartan]

I started this process with exactly your sentiment. I do believe that the transit mall concept establishes a strong transit corridor that adequately serves most of downtown. The challenge has become political however. Council signs off on our recommendations. While there has been alot of rhetoric about buses, it has been made exceptionately clear that they want us to "stretch" this thing. Several of them do not view it the way you or I do. I believe the downtown belongs to everyone and that the majority of our citizens will have regular, legitimate opportunities to use the system. However, there are those who have decided that this is for a small "elitist" group of people who live downtown.

Oh good, instead we'll stretch it through Heritage Hills which will magically make it less elitist. That thinking only works in one place in this universe...OKC City Hall.

But the council "getting it" and letting streetcar happen how it should is almost to much to ask.

P.S. (Directed at others) And on the topic of the Paseo, what is it up there that exactly warrants a streetcar line over anywhere closer, besides the arts festival? Plaza, 23rd, medical district, and capitol are all closer. Capitol Hill is a wash, but it's faster because no stops south of I-40 for the meantime. The Paseo is really kind of a small core, too, about the same size as Stockyards City, actually.

[SkyWestOKC]

To me, connecting and stretching to these neighborhoods is elitist...the average person in OKC has no reason to take a streetcar from downtown to these neighborhoods. What is the benefit? Who has the benefit?

[Spartan]

To me, connecting and stretching to these neighborhoods is elitist...the average person in OKC has no reason to take a streetcar from downtown to these neighborhoods. What is the benefit? Who has the benefit?

Bingo.

There is not anywhere else that serves ALL of OKC besides downtown. It is also where our civic amenities ALL are located. We don't have a ballpark in the Paseo, nor is there a convention center in the Plaza, and there certainly is not a basketball arena located in Mesta Park last time I checked. And the list could be at least 20 items long, when you add up the true, important amenities, that don't exist anywhere else. This also backs up the idea that we should be used to downtown serving all of us by now. Someone who lives on the edge of town benefits more from this streetcar not getting hijacked by the inner north and focusing instead more on downtown, which is what everyone sees of the inner city regardless of what else they see.

[Larry OKC]

The best way to counter the elitist perception/attitude is to put in places that are, shall we say less affluent and could actually use a relatively inexpensive dependable, alternative form of transportation?

[Spartan]

The best way to counter the elitist perception/attitude is to put in places that are, shall we say less affluent and could actually use a relatively inexpensive dependable, alternative form of transportation?

Well, we would go to capitol hill, but there's a black hole between there and downtown which would make for a questionable route. It's just too far to get to in the first phase. 23rd Street is certainly not elite, however.

[Larry OKC]

To me, connecting and stretching to these neighborhoods is elitist...the average person in OKC has no reason to take a streetcar from downtown to these neighborhoods. What is the benefit? Who has the benefit?

Think you have it backwards, the idea to connecting to residential neighborhoods isn't to get people downtown to visit the neighborhoods but to get the people in the neighborhoods a way to get downtown (and back).

if you are talking about a shopping district or the like, that is a different story.

[SkyWestOKC]

Build an extensive streetcar that covers downtown, then shift the resources from the buses running through downtown to the other areas. If the streetcar does its job as a downtown connector, having overlapping bus service that competes with the streetcar won't be needed, and those buses can be applied elsewhere.

[SkyWestOKC]

Think you have it backwards, the idea to connecting to residential neighborhoods isn't to get people downtown to visit the neighborhoods but to get the people in the neighborhoods a way to get downtown (and back).

if you are talking about a shopping district or the like, that is a different story.

So you admit the only people with the real benefit are those few people in those neighborhoods? I don't have it backwards, I got the response I was looking for.

[soonerguru]

The jail is a major employment and activity center. Not everyone in the jail is a criminal and no inmates would be riding the streetcar. Also, at that corner is the Okahoma City Municipal Courts which is another major employer and activity center. I think the police department and City 911 serive center is there also, not to mention several other City offices. Because the street around that area is one-way the streetcar has to make a loop anyhow and not having a stop their would be, well, rude.

Are you on crack?

[Larry OKC]

So you admit the only people with the real benefit are those few people in those neighborhoods? I don't have it backwards, I got the response I was looking for.

Of course they are benefiting. If the line goes to Nichols Hills, those people benefit. If it goes to Capitol Hill, those people benefit. If it only serves downtown, then mainly those who are downtown benefit. Those tourists (very important element since they represent NEW money to the economy, rather than the redistribution from one area of town or business to another) benefit. Those that live/work downtown benefit. And those that sometimes go to a sporting event, concert or special occasion benefit. If your interests aren't downtown centric, little to no benefit. if they are, you are going to benefit the most.

I am speaking to the MAPS 3 DT streetcars only, if and when federal money comes thru, a MAPS 4, 5 & 6 are used to expand the system, commuter rail and /or high speed rail materialize in 10, 20 or 50 years, that is another matter entirely.

[Kerry]

The system I posted goes within 2 blocks of every point of interest in downtown OKC. Name one I missed. It also hists 6 of the 8 hotels in the downtown OKC area and allows for ample TOD. Sure you can cut the line in HH and Mesta Park and go to OU Medical but who is going to ride it after 6PM? Are the people stating in the downtown hotels going to be venturing to OU medical at 9PM? I don't think so. If you try to go south out of downtown you run out of track before you get anywhere.

[betts]

I think if we're going to play with routes, they will have to fall well within the six mile estimate (which was a midrange estimate for costs, by the way). We can't plan a route based on federal funding that may never materialize, as that truly might leave you with a route to nowhere. So, when I'm theorizing, I try to do it within 5 mile constraints. That is more limiting, and it also makes really thinking about the goal of the streetcar important, but is probably more realistic.

[Urban Pioneer]

I've migrated towards the other approach. You give them the absolute best core system you can within the budget, and a full blown system plan.

Give them options that they can't go wrong with.

Regarding neighborhoods- neighborhood centers make excellent terminuses. There
is nothing wrong with streetcar going through residential part of the way.

[Kerry]

I think if we're going to play with routes, they will have to fall well within the six mile estimate (which was a midrange estimate for costs, by the way). We can't plan a route based on federal funding that may never materialize, as that truly might leave you with a route to nowhere. So, when I'm theorizing, I try to do it within 5 mile constraints. That is more limiting, and it also makes really thinking about the goal of the streetcar important, but is probably more realistic.

Good point Betts. My red line is 5.5 miles using all double track.

[Tier2City]

Keep in mind, this is just phase one. If you want to see phase two, three, and four - I have those as well. I even have a Classen line that goes from Belle Isle to St. Anthony to downtown.

I would very much like to see your later phases. Alternatives Analysis has really only come up with Midtown to Health Sciences which to my mind would make a solid Phase 1. AA needs to be thinking about Phase 2 such as going on up to the Capitol and perhaps east along 23rd to MLK. That would have a good federal funding potential and an application could be turned around fairly quickly using the MAPS Phase 1 as local match. And of course there are numerous other options to other neighborhoods.

Many of us have been concerned about this lack of vision. This week should have made it very clear that such a vision or system masterplan is what we need asap. We need to show how the core Phase 1 relates to and can be easily expanded to Phases 2a, 2b, etc. for the different points of the compass. And then a Phase 3.

As a possible mileage budget, it would be good to think about 6 miles in Phase 1, 6 miles for Phase 2 and perhaps 12 miles for Phase 3 - when every innercity neighborhood and their dog will be going bonkers demanding an extension!

Seriously, we need as much help as possible with developing a coherent, well-structured well-communicated vision that starts from Broadway/Robinson and goes out 10-20 years.