Cannabis

[barrettd]

Libertarian paradise? By saying I am in favor of ending the war on drugs and am in favor of marriage rights for all citizens?

OK.

[jerrywall]

The point is, states can't just unilaterally ignore federal laws. It's great if it's something you enspouse but what if it's not? You can't build a solid industry in a cloud of uncertainty. It's why marijuana is primarily a cash based industry since banks won't work with them, and they don't get the typical business deductions. This needs to be done top down.

[BBatesokc]

Plu Pan,
So, would you like the DOJ to make the decisions as to which federal laws they want to enforce? ....

Hmmm, hate to break it to you, but they already do. It's called the power of discretion.

[barrettd]

The point is, states can't just unilaterally ignore federal laws. It's great if it's something you enspouse but what if it's not? You can't build a solid industry in a cloud of uncertainty. It's why marijuana is primarily a cash based industry since banks won't work with them, and they don't get the typical business deductions. This needs to be done top down.

I responded to your original question of opium dens and FDA restrictions. When you didn't like my answer you kept adding other issues. If you want to talk about marijuana laws, let's talk about that. Minimum wage, worker safety, discrimination, etc. are subjects for another thread. And I never said we shouldn't have any federal laws at all. Maybe you'd rather have the federal government make all the laws for the states. In that case, why have state legislature at all?

[jerrywall]

If you are saying states can ignore certain federal laws, then yes, you're basically saying federal laws are meaningless and we shouldn't have them.

[TheTravellers]

I know and I can see where you're coming. If we have laws, we should enforce them. I can certainly agree. There are just gray areas, imo, on this issue. Weed is one of them. We allow tobacco and alcohol which are so dangerous, yet weed is illegal. I don't know. I just feel like disobedience is warranted here.

Classifying marijuana the same as waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more dangerous drugs (nobody has ever died of a marijuana overdose, nobody, ever) was done as a racist thing a long time ago, and is considered by many to be an unjust law, which a huge amount of people (entire states full of people, for instance, and yes, I know not everybody in those states voted for legalization) think deserves disobedience, agreed. It has needed reclassification for years, if not decades, but the completely stupid and wrong "Reefer Madness" way of thinking is still the way most of the rich old racist white men in DC think, and cops would lose out on so much civil forfeiture assets that they seize, that it's hard to bring straight (ha) thinking to the table to reclassify it. Our prison system and country would be *so* much better off with reclassified marijuana...

And as far as states legalizing opium dens and eliminating FDA controls on prescription drugs - not even close to the same thing.

[TheTravellers]

If you are saying states can ignore certain federal laws, then yes, you're basically saying federal laws are meaningless and we shouldn't have them.

Specific unjust federal laws should be ignored, but that's not the same thing as saying all federal laws are meaningless, it's not an all-or-nothing scenario.

[bchris02]

The bottom line is that marijuana has an image problem and for conservatives, image is everything. Think about the Marlboro Man. He represents the ideal of what a "true American" is. Riding his horse off into the sunset smoking a cigarette, etc. Think about all the older white protagonists in movies from the 1950s through the 1980s. What were they all doing? Smoking tobacco. We know the health risks and dangers of cigarette smoking yet conservatives are typically staunch defenders of the tobacco industry. Cigarette smoking is seen as a quintessential American male thing to do. I saw a blog recently where somebody was lamenting that the days when real men smoked cigarettes instead of sipping fruity cocktails were gone. Alcohol is a bit muddier especially in heavily-Baptist states like Oklahoma and Arkansas and states like Mormon Utah that still have prohibition-era liquor laws on the books. Yet, there is a place for moderate drinking and even younger evangelicals are backing away from teetotalism. Also, most Americans are well aware of the kind of failure alcohol prohibition was so there isn't a real push to ban alcohol.

Marijuana on the other hand draws up images of hippies, Cheech & Chong, Harold & Kumar, Snoop Dogg, etc...all stuff conservatives despise. It doesn't have the positive associations with American culture that alcohol and tobacco do. Most of your reactionary-type conservatives base their positions only on emotion. They hear marijuana = dangerous drug = angers God = for losers = should be illegal and don't give it any further thought. They'll try to parrot whatever prohibitionist argument they last heard on Sean Hannity's show or at church or D.A.R.E. but getting them to re-evaluate their position on the issue might as well be sending a man to Mars.

This is also why the idea of medical marijuana is such a hard sell to reactionary conservatives. They can't think of marijuana as anything other than the image I described above. They view it as a stepping stone or cover for recreational use. Meanwhile, their pastors and Big Pharma are both re-enforcing that belief so they remain against it.

[jerrywall]

Specific unjust federal laws should be ignored, but that's not the same thing as saying all federal laws are meaningless, it's not an all-or-nothing scenario.

The precedent bothers me though. I understand prosecutorial discreation, but a published policy of allowing states to ignore federal laws?

Also, on your other post, are marijuana laws a racists thing, or a cultural thing? I always had the impression that they were implimented to fight the counter culture movement of the 60s. Sonny Barger's (founder of the Hell's Angels) autobio goes into it a bit, and between that other other things I've read up on it, that's always been my impression. I never percieved marijuana as a minority drug, although this was all before my time

[Jersey Boss]

The best place to go would be what the driving force behind prohibition pontificated on this issue.
https://www.cannabis.info/en/blog/ha...bout-marihuana

Here are 5 of the 15 quotes cited.
1.

Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.​

2.

Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men.​

3.

There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.​​

4.

You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother.​

5.

Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.

[Stew]

I hope the Trump administration makes it a priority to enforce the federal prohibitions against marijuana to the full extent of the law. A full blitzkrieg of federal agents invading the 'legal' states arresting and prosecuting all those involved in buying and selling this plant and it's derivatives. No half measures. Lock'em up and throw away the key. Make an example out of those states who have no respect for federal law by pulling their federal funding for roads, people and whatever else. Come on Trump show them who's boss. I'd absolutely love for that to happen.

[OKCRT]

The best place to go would be what the driving force behind prohibition pontificated on this issue.
https://www.cannabis.info/en/blog/ha...bout-marihuana

Here are 5 of the 15 quotes cited.
1.

Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.​

2.

Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men.​

3.

There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.​​

4.

You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother.​

5.

Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.

Crazy, but that was the thinking back then and I would assume there are still some folks that believe that garbage. It just boggles my mind that people actually believed that stuff. Some of the idiots should be put in a room and forced to breath smoke til high.

Hopefully all the supporters will get out and vote in June. This needs to pass because I know for a fact that it does indeed help people whereas some of the narcotics that are pushed only makes things worse for some.

[OKCRT]

I hope the Trump administration makes it a priority to enforce the federal prohibitions against marijuana to the full extent of the law. A full blitzkrieg of federal agents invading the 'legal' states arresting and prosecuting all those involved in buying and selling this plant and it's derivatives. No half measures. Lock'em up and throw away the key. Make an example out of those states who have no respect for federal law by pulling their federal funding for roads, people and whatever else. Come on Trump show them who's boss. I'd absolutely love for that to happen.

I think that would be the absolute best thing that could happen. Lets urge them enforce the law and get things going. Then we can sit back and set the clock for the day it will be legal nationwide and I don't think that would be a long wait.

[bchris02]

I think that would be the absolute best thing that could happen. Lets urge them enforce the law and get things going. Then we can sit back and set the clock for the day it will be legal nationwide and I don't think that would be a long wait.

That's actually what Oklahoma did to finally repeal alcohol prohibition in 1959, two and a half decades after most of the nation had settled the issue. The saying was "they will vote dry as long as they can stagger to the polls."

[OKCRT]

That's actually what Oklahoma did to finally repeal alcohol prohibition in 1959, two and a half decades after most of the nation had settled the issue. The saying was "they will vote dry as long as they can stagger to the polls."

But this isn't 1959

[Bunty]

The bottom line is that marijuana has an image problem and for conservatives, image is everything. Think about the Marlboro Man. He represents the ideal of what a "true American" is. Riding his horse off into the sunset smoking a cigarette, etc. Think about all the older white protagonists in movies from the 1950s through the 1980s. What were they all doing? Smoking tobacco. We know the health risks and dangers of cigarette smoking yet conservatives are typically staunch defenders of the tobacco industry. Cigarette smoking is seen as a quintessential American male thing to do. I saw a blog recently where somebody was lamenting that the days when real men smoked cigarettes instead of sipping fruity cocktails were gone. Alcohol is a bit muddier especially in heavily-Baptist states like Oklahoma and Arkansas and states like Mormon Utah that still have prohibition-era liquor laws on the books. Yet, there is a place for moderate drinking and even younger evangelicals are backing away from teetotalism. Also, most Americans are well aware of the kind of failure alcohol prohibition was so there isn't a real push to ban alcohol.

Marijuana on the other hand draws up images of hippies, Cheech & Chong, Harold & Kumar, Snoop Dogg, etc...all stuff conservatives despise. It doesn't have the positive associations with American culture that alcohol and tobacco do. Most of your reactionary-type conservatives base their positions only on emotion. They hear marijuana = dangerous drug = angers God = for losers = should be illegal and don't give it any further thought. They'll try to parrot whatever prohibitionist argument they last heard on Sean Hannity's show or at church or D.A.R.E. but getting them to re-evaluate their position on the issue might as well be sending a man to Mars.

This is also why the idea of medical marijuana is such a hard sell to reactionary conservatives. They can't think of marijuana as anything other than the image I described above. They view it as a stepping stone or cover for recreational use. Meanwhile, their pastors and Big Pharma are both re-enforcing that belief so they remain against it.

I hope most of your points made are out of date or will be. In October, Oklahoma alcohol laws will be much more like other states. But still won't be able to buy liquor in drug stores, like in Las Vegas.

I think most of the religious and conservative opposition will come from people and their family members, who are well blessed to be in very good health all their lives. It puts them in the position of being totally unable to relate to or have empathy for chronically ill people needing medical marijuana, who can't say the same.

[jerrywall]

Or people who fear the consequences of legalization on lives and families.

[Jersey Boss]

Or people who fear the consequences of legalization on lives and families.

I would say fear and not rational thought is what drove the forces of prohibition in the first place. See #1410. Rational thought based on research from Nixon's commission all the way up to and including what is going on in the 26 states that have medical and or recreational use would dispel this. Then again you are always going to have a segment of the population that are "flat earthers".

[jerrywall]

And I agree it's fear driven. I just don't want to dismiss folks as uncaring or cruel because they have these fears. Just like some people are healthy and haven't experienced pain, there are lots of folks who haven't had thier own or a loved ones life destroyed by drugs, alcohol, or gambling.

[bchris02]

Or people who fear the consequences of legalization on lives and families.

I think people are worried about it becoming more socially acceptable. Reactionary social conservatives are all about preserving and enforcing cultural norms and conformism. Marijuana is counter-cultural and therefore is a threat to their grip on control.

[jerrywall]

There may be some of that but I think it's oversimplication to try to put a single cause behind opposition. There are sane reasons for people to oppose this, just like they might oppose increased availability of alcohol. And they're not based on politics or religion, but on thier own life experiences.

[Jersey Boss]

And I agree it's fear driven. I just don't want to dismiss folks as uncaring or cruel because they have these fears. Just like some people are healthy and haven't experienced pain, there are lots of folks who haven't had thier own or a loved ones life destroyed by drugs, alcohol, or gambling.

I can agree with that perspective. However there are countless people serving serious time with those families destroyed by irrational fears to protect people from themselves. How many people have had their elder relatives financially ruined by unscrupulous religious hucksters on tv? However there is no serious movement to prohibit religious charlatans from promising salvation if they would send 50 to the minister. I would venture to say far more individuals and their loved ones have been ruined by prohibition than people predisposed to compulsive behavior being helped by prohibition. When I was in high school in the late 1960's we had a group of recovering heroin addicts come to the school and attempt to link mj usage with heroin addiction. All claimed to have started with mj. The question was then asked if had they started with beer did they feel they would have become alcoholics favoring liquor. All answered in the affirmative.

[Eric]

Sounds like a bunch of states rights racists up in here...

Opinions and understandings of things change over time. Laws are always lagging behind. Really it should be this way. And yes, they should enforce the laws we have. In reality, doing so will likely just push the matter to the forefront sooner than doing a turn a blind eye approach.

[bchris02]

Opinions and understandings of things change over time. Laws are always lagging behind. Really it should be this way. And yes, they should enforce the laws we have. In reality, doing so will likely just push the matter to the forefront sooner than doing a turn a blind eye approach.

You may be right here.

"The American people will vote dry as long as they are able to stagger to the polls." -Will Rogers

[pw405]

I hope the Trump administration makes it a priority to enforce the federal prohibitions against marijuana to the full extent of the law. A full blitzkrieg of federal agents invading the 'legal' states arresting and prosecuting all those involved in buying and selling this plant and it's derivatives. No half measures. Lock'em up and throw away the key. Make an example out of those states who have no respect for federal law by pulling their federal funding for roads, people and whatever else. Come on Trump show them who's boss. I'd absolutely love for that to happen.

In your opinion, what would the benefit of an action like this be?