Streetcar

[Spartan]

If there is only one outer neighborhood area from the list (Paseo, Plaza, Asian, Stockyards, etc.) to try and connect, I would vote for the Paseo.

Also look at widening the "transit mall" area to Broadway and Hudson area as opposed to Broadway and Robinson?

Why no Uptown? I think if we're looking for a neighborhood to extend streetcar to, just do Uptown because it has enormous potential itself, it's closer in, and it's a good baseline for extensions to Plaza, Paseo, Asian, etc. Also, keep in mind OKC's block sizes are huge, so I just think we should stick to Rob/Broad.

[Kerry]

I wouldn't even split up the track between Broadway and Robinson. The more I study other system around the world the more I am convinced that tracks need to stay togethere where traffic patterns permit it. Look at this example. If you divide north and south bound streetcars between Robinson and Broadway how many blocks are served with two way travel? Answer 1, the block between Robinson and Broadway. If both travel directions are on Robinson how many blocks are served by travel in both directions? Answer 2, Broadway to Robinson to Harvey. Keeping the tracks together puts twice as many people and business within one block of both travel direction. Call me crazy, but that seems better.

The further you get away from the track the more evident this becomes as well. Once you get to two blocks out, using the coupling plan then it makes the return trip a three block walk. Based on the studies, people won't walk three blocks so you don't even capture the two block group at all. With two-way travel on the same street you pick up 2 more blocks that are within 2 blocks of both travel directions. Again, better in my opinion. The moral - just say no to coupling unless one-way streets require it.

[Urban Pioneer]

I wouldn't even split up the track between Broadway and Robinson. The more I study other system around the world the more I am convinced that tracks need to stay togethere where traffic patterns permit it. Look at this example. If you divide north and south bound streetcars between Robinson and Broadway how many blocks are served with two way travel? Answer 1, the block between Robinson and Broadway. If both travel directions are on Robinson how many blocks are served by travel in both directions? Answer 2, Broadway to Robinson to Harvey. Keeping the tracks together puts twice as many people and business within one block of both travel direction. Call me crazy, but that seems better.

The further you get away from the track the more evident this becomes as well. Once you get to two blocks out, using the coupling plan then it makes the return trip a three block walk. Based on the studies, people won't walk three blocks so you don't even capture the two block group at all. With two-way travel on the same street you pick up 2 more blocks that are within 2 blocks of both travel directions. Again, better in my opinion. The moral - just say no to coupling unless one-way streets require it.

I understand your point of view, but don't agree with it. When I went to Seattle for the rail conference, there were people there from all over the world. Every one of them was say couplets, couplets, couplets...

I don't believe that couplets should be everywhere. There may be "double tracking" that needs to occur on some streets. But Robinson is undeniably a great system "spine" as it goes all the way through from Edgemere to Capitol Hill. Then there are all the people who insist that it go down Automobile Alley. I agree that it needs to go down Broadway. Auto Alley brings a great deal of potential ridership to the system. But keep in mind when you talk about people walking blocks, Broadway is bordered by a freight rail line a block away, and a highway, two blocks away. From an urbanity standpoint, the transit mall is "centered" on a great "axis."

There are three other big fundamental reasons that we are talking about this.

1. We want straight lines without "jogs" for long distances. Easier to interpret on a map or give people directions.

2. It costs us a great deal less on utility relocation as we are "shifting" utilities from one side of the street to the other, rather than trying to bury everything 6' deep.

3. Aesthetically, if we do an overhead wire, a couplet allows for a single overhead wire with guide arms on one side of the street. Guidelines in such a configuration would only be necessary at major turns. A double track configuration also creates a great deal more "visual pollution" as there are wires spanning the entire width of the street to keep the lines secure.

For the people at the conference, the utility savings were the biggest reason, spreading developmental impact was second, creating a situation where people might find a rail line easier by making it possible for the to "run into it" sooner was another, and minimizing visual pollution was something else that became obvious in studying the systems..

[TheTravellers]

Nick- I have been thinking about the grid bus system and BRT for a couple of months now, and looking at as much material as I can find as it comes up. There are not a lot of examples of grid bus systems, but there was an interesting KU study that looked at doing BRT and grid buses in Wichita. I think this would be an amazing thing to pursue in OKC.

http://www.transitchicago.com/travel...systemmap.aspx is the starting point for Chicago's public transit. Their bus routes are pretty heavily grid-oriented from what I can remember. Hopefully your definition of grid bus system is the same as mine.

[TheTravellers]

The "Let's talk Transit Surveys" suggested 57% say the will go 2-3 blocks. 47% say 4 blocks or more. 7% only one block.

Over 4 blocks is probably stretching it. My experience in Chicago was that 3-4 blocks was about it, otherwise they'd take a cab or drive unless public transit was their only option, then they just walked however far they needed to in order to get to a stop.

[TheTravellers]

I have to agree with both of these. When the day comes that we have more than one type of mass transit in Oklahoma City, we need a mass transit card that works for all modalities, IMO.

We will need day and monthly passes, to make transit simply.

Again, check out Chicago for their painful transition to whatever they call their transit card from tokens, and also their pass structure. They finally made it work, but it had a few kinks along the way. Now I think their card works on buses, El/subway, and PACE buses (suburban), but not on Metra (heavy rail) trains. www.chicago-card.com

[okclee]

Why no Uptown? I think if we're looking for a neighborhood to extend streetcar to, just do Uptown because it has enormous potential itself, it's closer in, and it's a good baseline for extensions to Plaza, Paseo, Asian, etc. Also, keep in mind OKC's block sizes are huge, so I just think we should stick to Rob/Broad.

When you say Uptown, we are talking 23rd street, but where on 23rd is Uptown?, Robinson ? Walker ? Classen ?

Currently if you were to ride a streetcar to Uptown 23rd and Robinson, you would get off and wonder why you wasted your time (with a few exceptions). Now if you traveled further north along Robinson and ventured into Paseo you would now be interested. I want to reach out to what we have now, because as we all know Okc can be slow to further the developments.

No matter the outcome, I would love to see the streetcar reach as far as possible. I would vote Paseo due to the density that currently exists, both resident apartment living, dining, art galleries and retail. Also I believe it would be a destination for the locals while giving the tourists a welcome alternative from Bricktown.

I keep saying that we really need to reach as many people as possible and give our inner city neighborhoods the shot in the arm, that has been seen with Bricktown and other parts of downtown.

[Kerry]

I understand your point of view, but don't agree with it. When I went to Seattle for the rail conference, there were people there from all over the world. Every one of them was say couplets, couplets, couplets...

I don't believe that couplets should be everywhere. There may be "double tracking" that needs to occur on some streets. But Robinson is undeniably a great system "spine" as it goes all the way through from Edgemere to Capitol Hill. Then there are all the people who insist that it go down Automobile Alley. I agree that it needs to go down Broadway. Auto Alley brings a great deal of potential ridership to the system. But keep in mind when you talk about people walking blocks, Broadway is bordered by a freight rail line a block away, and a highway, two blocks away. From an urbanity standpoint, the transit mall is "centered" on a great "axis."

There are three other big fundamental reasons that we are talking about this.

1. We want straight lines without "jogs" for long distances. Easier to interpret on a map or give people directions.

2. It costs us a great deal less on utility relocation as we are "shifting" utilities from one side of the street to the other, rather than trying to bury everything 6' deep.

3. Aesthetically, if we do an overhead wire, a couplet allows for a single overhead wire with guide arms on one side of the street. Guidelines in such a configuration would only be necessary at major turns. A double track configuration also creates a great deal more "visual pollution" as there are wires spanning the entire width of the street to keep the lines secure.

For the people at the conference, the utility savings were the biggest reason, spreading developmental impact was second, creating a situation where people might find a rail line easier by making it possible for the to "run into it" sooner was another, and minimizing visual pollution was something else that became obvious in studying the systems..

Here is my philosophy; I would rather serve a smaller area really well than serve an area twice the size but only half as good. This is the problem mass transit in OKC suffer from now.

A few things I have learned over the last week. Jogs in the track are not a big deal. It is more important that the streetcar goes where the people want to go than it for the people to go where the streetcar wants to take them. The streetcar exists for the rider. Nearly every system I have seen puts the track down the middle of the road so any utility relocation would come from the center of the roads to the shoulders. The new systems use induction technology so there are no overhead wires at all.

I don’t think it is possible for anyone to serve more points with fewer miles of tracks than what I posted earlier.

[betts]

I'm going to disagree with one thing, Kerry. Jogs ARE a big deal. Simplicity is key. First of all, every jog has multiple corners. I think Urban Pioneer will tell you that corners make streetcars far more complicated for a variety of reasons he has outlined before. One of the reasons we're all talking about a grid system for buses is that straight lines make everything easier, including passenger use and understanding of route. I believe the same holds true for streetcars. Remember, many people going downtown who will use the streetcar who live in OKC don't know downtown well, much less visitors. The last thing you want to tell someone is: Well, if you're south of 4th street, you can pick up the streetcar on Broadway. But, it turns on 4th and goes up Robinson to 10th, but if you're north of tenth you need to pick it up on _______. I suspect most residents, if you polled them, couldn't give you the names of 4 north-south streets downtown, much less the east-west streets, which don't even keep the same name throughout. It's much simpler to say something like...."Pick the streetcar up going north on Robinson, or if you want to go south go one block east to Broadway. You can't miss it." We don't have to go everywhere....we just have to be withing reasonable walking distance.

[Kerry]

Somehow every system in the world has jogs all over the place though. People won't stay ignorant forever and if they are one of the residents that live in the area this thing is going to serve then they are already well versed in downtown OKC. It isn't like it the hardest downtown in the world to get around in. Plus, I have no fear of somone for Denver, Sacramento, Pittsburgh, or Paris being unable to find a streetcar that turns a couple of time, so long as it take them where they want to go once they are on it. I would rather they get directions to the streetcar than to have to get direction to their destination AFTER they get off of it. Now a country bumpkin from Carter County on a day trip to the big city might be a different story. As for coupling I can see it now, when someone gets off the first thing they are going to have to ask is where do I go to get back on to go the other way.

[betts]

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. And, the map would be easy to understand so i'm not sure anyone would have to ask how to get back going the other direction. You would know that if you get off on one street, the line going the reverse direction will be exactly one block over, throughout the entire route.

[Tier2City]

The new systems use induction technology so there are no overhead wires at all.

Whihc cities are using induction technology? I'm only aware of the private Bombardier test track in Augsburg.

[Kerry]

Whihc cities are using induction technology? I'm only aware of the private Bombardier test track in Augsburg.

Yea - I worded that incorrectly. The new streetcar technology uses induction. I don't know of any system where it is actually in use.

[TheTravellers]

I'm going to disagree with one thing, Kerry. Jogs ARE a big deal. Simplicity is key. First of all, every jog has multiple corners. I think Urban Pioneer will tell you that corners make streetcars far more complicated for a variety of reasons he has outlined before. One of the reasons we're all talking about a grid system for buses is that straight lines make everything easier, including passenger use and understanding of route. I believe the same holds true for streetcars. Remember, many people going downtown who will use the streetcar who live in OKC don't know downtown well, much less visitors. The last thing you want to tell someone is: Well, if you're south of 4th street, you can pick up the streetcar on Broadway. But, it turns on 4th and goes up Robinson to 10th, but if you're north of tenth you need to pick it up on _______. I suspect most residents, if you polled them, couldn't give you the names of 4 north-south streets downtown, much less the east-west streets, which don't even keep the same name throughout. It's much simpler to say something like...."Pick the streetcar up going north on Robinson, or if you want to go south go one block east to Broadway. You can't miss it." We don't have to go everywhere....we just have to be withing reasonable walking distance.

Have to agree with you, the NOLA St. Charles and Canal St. streetcars are pretty much straight lines on the one street that they're named after, extremely simple and intuitive and the usage on them is quite high by both local residents (to/from work and to/from school) and tourists, from what I remember.

[betts]

Again, check out Chicago for their painful transition to whatever they call their transit card from tokens, and also their pass structure. They finally made it work, but it had a few kinks along the way. Now I think their card works on buses, El/subway, and PACE buses (suburban), but not on Metra (heavy rail) trains. www.chicago-card.com

You're right. For awhile too, the card wouldn't let you use it more than once on the same bus, which meant my daughters could use their card and I'd have to drag out change. They've got the phone app that allows you to track buses though, which is very cool.

[soonerguru]

Yea - I worded that incorrectly. The new streetcar technology uses induction. I don't know of any system where it is actually in use.

I thought the Bombardier induction technology was in use in Marseilles, France, but I could be wrong.

[Tier2City]

I thought the Bombardier induction technology was in use in Marseilles, France, but I could be wrong.

I think you might be thinking of the Alstom Ground-level Power Supply system also known as surface current collection or Alimentation par Sol (APS).

"It is a modern method of third-rail electrical pick-up for street trams. It was invented for the Bordeaux tramway, which was constructed from 2000 and opened in 2003. Currently, this is the only place it is used but there were and are proposals to install it elsewhere...Before use in Bordeaux, APS was tested and proved viable on a short section of reserved-track tramway in the French city of Marseilles."

The system is basically a central third rail in certain limited aesthetically sensitive areas. Only a small section of the third rail becomes live when the tram is directly over that area.

There were considerable teething troubles during installation but apparently after a lot of effort the system is now working. There were plans to install this system elsewhere and enthusiasm for the system in other cities waned though it's interesting to see that Tours is now going ahead with it - http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...s-and-aps.html.

[Kerry]

No coupling in New Orleans except for a small portion caused by one way streets. As for the early days of OKC, there were jogs and turns in the tracks everywhere. I am not saying it need to turn 50 times but it does have to go the destination people want to go to. I don't think 'getting close' is good enough.

[Spartan]

When you say Uptown, we are talking 23rd street, but where on 23rd is Uptown?, Robinson ? Walker ? Classen ?

Currently if you were to ride a streetcar to Uptown 23rd and Robinson, you would get off and wonder why you wasted your time (with a few exceptions). Now if you traveled further north along Robinson and ventured into Paseo you would now be interested. I want to reach out to what we have now, because as we all know Okc can be slow to further the developments.

No matter the outcome, I would love to see the streetcar reach as far as possible. I would vote Paseo due to the density that currently exists, both resident apartment living, dining, art galleries and retail. Also I believe it would be a destination for the locals while giving the tourists a welcome alternative from Bricktown.

I keep saying that we really need to reach as many people as possible and give our inner city neighborhoods the shot in the arm, that has been seen with Bricktown and other parts of downtown.

This is an interesting reply. I don't mean to give Uptown a stop, I mean to give Uptown an entire line. 23rd is an awesome, underrated street. 23rd has the potential to become once again the main street for the north side, as it was once. I would also contend that there are more things to do along 23rd from Robinson to Western, than there are in the Paseo (which is a much smaller area) or on the ride from 23rd up to the Paseo (which is a more comparable stretch). And in all honesty, 23rd is at least as vibrant as the Paseo is when there's not an event.

Things along 23rd: Blue note, a dog salon, fast food, several design-oriented firms, Cheever's, Market C, the Tower Theater (under renovation and will have retail in front, including a party store), several Asian restaurants, Big Truck Tacos, Cuppies and Joe, other cool businesses in the Cottages (Phase 2 of which is under construction), hair salons, the Someplace Else Deli, the Gold Dome (including the Prohibition Room), and The Classen. Plus some really good residential density within 2 blocks all along the entire stretch from Robinson to Western.

I think it would be a hit, especially with the theater. Looking beyond the starter system, 23rd is already a very nice street, it's just not as vibrant as it could be. It is surrounded on all sides by good neighborhoods, with very few exceptions all the way from 235 to 44. It's puzzling that 23rd has so many run-down parts of it and yet for virtually the entire stretch it's surrounded by good neighborhoods. Furthermore, it still has a good building stock left, and it's also the most significant E/W street on the north side and has pretty decent traffic counts--meaning that despite not fulfilling hopes, it is still an important stretch to the people who live around it. Also being a former Route 66, not only could there be opportunities for federal/foundational funding for things, but there could also be some home run opportunities to tie in some vintage Route 66 effects with both TOD and the transit line itself. It could be an incredible urban environment with a uniquely Okie spin.

I also think 23rd has the potential to be a good baseline for northside streetcars once the system keeps getting expanded that way. Classen/Western to me is a natural couplet, just a block apart from each other, that could begin and end at 23rd and loop all the way up to 50th, or however far up Western Avenue they decide to go (my vote is that it goes right in front of the Speakeasy so I can call it the Speakeasy to Prohibition Line). 23rd can also reach Paseo, Plaza, and very importantly, OCU.

But that's all sort of a 30-40 year masterplan to me (kind of like Core to Shore except that it's good for the city and less expensive). For now, this is the kind of starter system I would suggest at this point, given that it has to be passed by a city council keen to recant on its word of support...



I believe it's about 7 miles (all lines are single tracks), so perhaps we could just go as far up toward Plaza as possible in the first phase. There is no doubt that in a system such as this, Phase 2 would definitely be looking exclusively at the medical district, Paseo, and Capital Hill so if you want to placate city council, go ahead and draw those routes up and include them in the proposal.

One thing I like about my route above is its use of historic streetcar routes: Robinson, 23rd, Classen, etc. I think these are the absolute best corridors we could use. There's something about the lay of the streetcar routes that seems very organic, too, the way it points to the NW..I think it will make the system easily understood by its riders. I also like the loop that spurs off and quickly steps in and out of Bricktown/Deep Deuce, and it would be from 2nd/Walnut that you would extend the system under 235 at 4th Street and then up Lincoln to the heart of NE OKC. Mid-town is left out, being the only drawback in my opinion, but if the council wants it to stretch further than downtown, it will have to be that way. Unless a way is found to navigate the traffic circles along 10th, then perhaps you could take 10th between Walker and Classen instead of 4th/5th/6th.

[Tier2City]

I wouldn't even split up the track between Broadway and Robinson. The more I study other system around the world the more I am convinced that tracks need to stay togethere where traffic patterns permit it.

I’m not sure that this is necessarily true in Europe for new systems or those currently in planning and development. For instance, in Dublin, a system I’m fairly familiar with, the approved new Luas Broombridge (Line BXD) has a major couplet in central Dublin. The conclusion of their Alternatives Analysis was although both lines could be routed up and down the major O’Connell Street thoroughfare, placing the southbound line to the east on Marlborough Street performed better under the assessment criteria. According to the Irish RPA’s Environmental Impact Statement, “the wider accessibility of the system is of greater attraction to future users.” Also this routing “has the potential to act as a catalyst for the future regeneration of the northeast inner city area…” My experience is that the economic development potential, and how this can be spread out with couplets is now becoming much more recognized in streetcar planning and business case justifications in Europe.

I think that if we are planning a new system we need to look at the most current practices and not necessarily look at historical routes that developed under very different circumstances or cities with an already heavily developed transit system. We should look at cities where streetcar systems are about to be built that most closely parallel our situation, i.e., a new system in a US city that is not used to modern mass transit and where economic development potential was one of the main reasons why the system received such broad political support. We really need to look at and learn as much as we can from current planning that fully takes into account the huge economic development that has now taken place along modern streetcar corridors, most notably in Portland and Seattle.

So I must say I’m particularly struck with the strong, simple couplet design for Cincinnati . I’m sure Hutch, who monitors rail development of all kinds around the US, could easily provide some other examples.

[stdennis]

Ok, here is my concept. It has two lines.

Line 1:
Mesta Park to Santa Fe station.
Total length - 2.29 miles
Future extension to NW23 where it can go to Classen/UCO or continue to neighborhoods north of 23rd. On the south end it can go to Core to Shore/Capitol Hill

Line 2:
Deep Duce to St. Anthony Hospital
Total length - 1.14 miles
Future extension to Classen and neighborhoods west of Classen. On the Deep Duce side if can go to OU Medical/State Capitol

Total system length - 6.86 miles doubled tracked for travel in both direction. I was able to keep the total track to just under 7 miles becasue 1.58 miles of track through downtown is shared by both lines.
Points served within 1 block:
Deep Duce
Cox Center
Canal
ATT Ball Park
Bricktown
Harkin Theater
Centenial Plaza
Devon Tower (old one)
Devon tower (new one)
Cutter Tower
First National
City Place
First Oklahoma Tower
Sandridge
Bank of Oklahoma
Leadership Sq
OKC National Memorial
Automobile Alley
Midtown Plaza
St. Anthonys
Mesta Park
Heritage Hills
and 6 major downtown Hotels (Aloft, Hampton Inn, Courtyard, Renassiance, Shearton, and Colcord) .
The biggest problem with connecting downtown and residentail is a bunch of empty land that has to traveresed.

I expanded my route and made it roughly the same length as yours.

I hit all the same points as yours minus the aloft (two blocks instead one 1) But it also adds OU Health Center

The east/west Lines are all single track (I don't think we need double track for those lines yet but once the system is expanded they can be expanded to double line if planned right)



This is an option for it expansion. I would include a north south line on May, Villa, or Penn but i don't know which one would be best.


And this is What it could look like with commuter rail (this is assuming the commuter rail is using existing track lines or the right of ways for them at least)
The green line goes to Yukon and El Reno (connects to their street car) the Light blue goes to edmond up near UCO, The pink line goes to downtown Norman, The red goes to Will Rodgers and the black line goes to Tinker. I tried to make the streetcar end near or at the commuter lines (except the tinker line) so people can pick it up on the end or at the hub(Santa Fe station)

[Urban Pioneer]

I thought the Bombardier induction technology was in use in Marseilles, France, but I could be wrong.

I think in our conversations, the confusion lies in that Bomardier designed a really cool streetcar (Kerry posted pics) that "could" run on induction per our conversations with the manufacturer.

Bombardier is the only manufacturer who has come out with an induction system that could be installed in the US. Right now, per the video that we have of it, it is only in operation on a test track in Ausberg, Germany. Apparently, they are having a big "unveiling" of it sometime in February.

[Urban Pioneer]

Here is my philosophy; I would rather serve a smaller area really well than serve an area twice the size but only half as good. This is the problem mass transit in OKC suffer from now.

A few things I have learned over the last week. Jogs in the track are not a big deal. It is more important that the streetcar goes where the people want to go than it for the people to go where the streetcar wants to take them. The streetcar exists for the rider. Nearly every system I have seen puts the track down the middle of the road so any utility relocation would come from the center of the roads to the shoulders. The new systems use induction technology so there are no overhead wires at all.

I don’t think it is possible for anyone to serve more points with fewer miles of tracks than what I posted earlier.

1. I think "jogs" are a big deal on the core system. There needs to be at least one extremely defined corridor. Small jogs in other areas, probably not such a big deal.

2. Streetcar does exist for the rider. Many older historic trams do go down the center of the road. But new modern streetcar design ideally interfaces directly with the sidewalk so that pedestrians are not having to cross a busy street to get to the platform. Undoubtedly, we may have some platforms in the middle. Particularly if it is a single track. But on a street as busy as Broadway, I think it would be safer and more attractive for people if we were minimizing their interaction with traffic.

3. Induction- Again, its a great idea and we are already seriously studying it. But we don't know what the average cost per mile is yet and it has only been demonstrated on a test track. As of right now, we are planning based on conventional overhead wire technology of which the MAPS budget was created. We will gladly change that position if induction or some other technology proves to be financially competitive and reliable.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think a few of us are going to be running around this weekend looking at streets with our measuring wheels trying to generate some estimates and qualifying routes. We will try to "qualify" some of the great ideas that we have seen on here.

Let me give you all a challenge for debate:

What is the most preferable way to get to the Plaza district from 10th/13th streets? Think about what is along the way that makes sense to go by. Should we go by teh Classen school for example. I mean, really study it. Should we go up Classen, Shartel, or some other street? Also, remember that streetcar can "go through the grass." There are some streets that used to punch through to Classen that now are closed off by curbs and "busy" medians. Just food for thought.

[warreng88]

Let me give you all a challenge for debate:

What is the most preferable way to get to the Plaza district from 10th/13th streets? Think about what is along the way that makes sense to go by. Should we go by teh Classen school for example. I mean, really study it. Should we go up Classen, Shartel, or some other street? Also, remember that streetcar can "go through the grass." There are some streets that used to punch through to Classen that now are closed off by curbs and "busy" medians. Just food for thought.

We live around 23rd and May and my wife worked downtown for several years. She always drove to Villa, down to 16th, to Classen Blvd to 13th all the way to Robinson then south to DT. I think doing 16th (maybe from Penn?) down to Classen Blvd south, to 13th east to Classen Drive southeast to Midtown (10th and Walker) There could be stops at 16th and Ellison (a block south of Classen SAS) in front of Lyric Theatre, 13th and Classen Drive and finally 10th and Walker. I believe this route would be about 1.75 miles.