Streetcar

[Platemaker]

Ok, so let me get this straight. The loop around Robinson and Broadway becomes the transit mall and any streetcar coming into downtown take this loop. Due to the turn at Broadway and Sheridan streetcars will run in this loop in a clockwise direction. If correct, does this mean there is no hub because now instead of one central station we have a central loop? If we still have a hub won't streetcars be on the wrong side of the street to integrate with Sante Fe Station?

I think it would be better for the loop to run counter-clockwise (North on Broadway and south on Robinson). This would have 4 benefits.

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.
2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop
3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic
4. The little jog in the track necessary at EKGaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site becasue a stop could be added right in front of it..

The problem is still the tight turn on to Broadway whick leads me to my next observation. All of the street cars I have looked at (Portland, Toronto, Europe) have the street cars in the center of the roard, or as close to as they can. They never travel in the right lane. I assume this is so they don't get stuck behind cars waiting to make right turns and avoids possible accidents with parked cars (cars pulling out of parking spaces or opening doors). If this is correct then a streetcar should be able to make the turn from the left lane of Sheridan to Broadway pretty easy.

BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network.

I like the idea of south on Broadway for the reason UP mentioned... pedestrians don't have to cross any streets that way... if it loops the other direction pedestrian have to cross both Robinson and Broadway.

I wonder id the stop being across the street is really an issue... it's not as if streetcar actually goes into the Santa Fe building... plus in the future I imagine multiple tracks in both directions across from Santa Fe.

[Platemaker]

Also... you have to go clockwise to go with the flow of traffic?

[Kerry]

Pedestrian will have to cross the street no matter which side of the street the street car is on. As for going with the flow, the streets will be two-way. If EKG is narrowed to four lanes there might be enough room to make a streetcar plaza in front of Santa Fe.

Anyhow, I am pleased with how this is turning out so far. It has been a very educational experience.

[Urban Pioneer]

Kerry, your line of thinking is ok, but as it relates to the hub- how it will connect hasn't been determined yet. It is possible that the the streetcar ends up being in a protected right-of-way, or a center median stop not unlike the Ferry Building in San Francisco- directly centered accross from the front doors.

The "cross overs" for Phase 2 lines are not really benefited in a counter clockwise configuration as it relates to the "transit mall".

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.

Unsure how the connection will yet be made. It is even possible that it will be a fully integrated covered area on the backside as part of the "new part" of the hub as part of a dedicated "pull through."


2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop

? It would make the curve seamlessly with traffic in a clockwise orientation. Counter would require crossing opposing travel lanes.


3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic

Either configuration of flow would require crossovers in a couplet.


4. The little jog in the track necessary at EK Gaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site because a stop could be added right in front of it..

Not holding my breath on that chamber site or predicating all of the other design concerns because of it. Besides, it will have stop directly accross the street in a southbound scenario, which is close enough anyway.


Great dialogue though guys!

[Spartan]

I don't know how comfortable I am with the idea of the rails NOT going through Bricktown, Deep Deuce, or the Arts District. Those districts are the very reason we believe streetcar can be a big hit downtown. Deep Deucers' being accustomed to walking is a cop-out. Bricktown having the hub adjacent on the other side of the tracks is an even bigger cop-out. I'm not saying these are invalid ideas, because it's true that the hub will have decent TOD potential if the elevated tracks can be traversed, and that will involve improving the connection from what it is now which stinks.

I'm just so enamored with some of OKC's current assets that I have a very romanticized vision of the modern streetcar gliding through beautiful Automobile Alley, or stopping in front of the impressive Sheridan Ave streetwall in Bricktown, and going a few blocks down Walker in the Arts District, one of OKC's most classy and most underrated corridors.

Beyond that, I'm not very concerned about the route. It will take care of itself.

________________

Some points relating to the lane discussion. It's not just Project 180 that is changing roads--Broadway in A-Alley is probably about to be restriped next year to take away 2 lanes of traffic and introduce back-in angled parking, similar to Portland. I don't know if this will be looked at as a parking trial in OKC or what, but it could eventually lead to other restripings.

So Broadway is probably only going to have ONE lane of traffic going each way. I think it might also have a left turn lane that might be a good place for the tracks. I would recommend mirroring however Portland has the back-in angled parking and streetcar interacting.

[Urban Pioneer]

Spartan, I don't think anyone on our committee is talking about not trying to serve Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Art District, Midtown, Film Row, or other key greater downtown areas. However, the conversation on the last couple of pages has centered around the need for this strong transit "spine" for there to be a easily understood "center of gravity" in the most critical part of the system. From this spine, lines to other areas or "neighborhood collector loops" can tie in these areas that you are worried about.

[Kerry]

I just want to say thanks to Urban Pioneer (and all the others involved) for answering questions and making things understandable.

[Urban Pioneer]

Sure. I think it would be kind of cool to do an OKC Talk night for bloggers who regularly follow this. You guys are some of the most informed people in the community. It would make some sense to reach out and debate/solicit ideas socially. Let me know if you like this idea.

[Doug Loudenback]

I just want to say thanks to Urban Pioneer (and all the others involved) for answering questions and making things understandable.

I agree completely. This thread is one of the most informative ever here at OkcTalk.com. Members have been good at staying on topic, and thoughts/opinions have been stated very well.

[Steve]

xx

[soonerguru]

xx

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[Larry OKC]

Urban: good to hear,

I know that renderings are just renderings, but that is what people saw and will remember...can't imagine the Streetcars NOT going thru Bricktown (and in the rendering case, in front of Spaghetti Warehouse).

[Kerry]

Sure. I think it would be kind of cool to do an OKC Talk night for bloggers who regularly follow this. You guys are some of the most informed people in the community. It would make some sense to reach out and debate/solicit ideas socially. Let me know if you like this idea.

You would probably have to setup a skype meeting for about 1/2 of us.

[Spartan]

Spartan, I don't think anyone on our committee is talking about not trying to serve Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Art District, Midtown, Film Row, or other key greater downtown areas. However, the conversation on the last couple of pages has centered around the need for this strong transit "spine" for there to be a easily understood "center of gravity" in the most critical part of the system. From this spine, lines to other areas or "neighborhood collector loops" can tie in these areas that you are worried about.

Jeff, I was not in any way remarking on what I think is the position of anyone on the committee, just what I've seen mentioned in the last few posts from other users in this thread, and in particular some of the latest user-created maps.

[Larry OKC]

Wasn't there a presentation to Council (or it may have been one of the Lets Talk Transit meetings) where Bricktown was left out? Think there was another notable "oops" but I can't recall what it was right now.

The rendering I was talking about is still on the Citys MAPS 3 website, main pic leading off the Streetcars description
http://www.okc.gov/maps3/modernstreetcar.html

[Urban Pioneer]

I think you were reffering to Rick Cain's presentation of where the majority of the AA Steering Committee "seems" to be headed. Bricktown was picked up on the southern "collector loop" on Sheridan, Stiles (I think), and the new Boulevard. No one on AA has ever proposed not going to Bricktown as far as I can recall. It simply wasn't portrayed in the first slide of his presentation.

Regarding the rendering of the streetcar in front of Nonna's, that is a chamber creation. It is an artist's concept of what they thought a streetcar looks like.

[Tier2City]

You would probably have to setup a skype meeting for about 1/2 of us.

Then let's try to do it. A lot of important - and tough - decisions are going to have to be made within the next few months if not weeks. The more input and discussion we can get from informed and insightful sources the better.

[Tier2City]

I think you were reffering to Rick Cain's presentation of where the majority of the AA Steering Committee "seems" to be headed. Bricktown was picked up on the southern "collector loop" on Sheridan, Stiles (I think), and the new Boulevard. No one on AA has ever proposed not going to Bricktown as far as I can recall. It simply wasn't portrayed in the first slide of his presentation.

That would be the presentation that Rick made to the City Council on December 21. I think Larry is referring to the Lets Talk Transit meetings. Briefly looking back through the LetsTalkTransit.com website it looks like Bricktown was always there.

A big question is do we try to reach the Health Sciences Center in the first (MAPS-funded) phase or not? But ultimately we are most certainly going to have to head up the Lincoln corridor, onto the State Capitol and on to the Northeast Side. So we need to be thinking about the best - most easily expandable - route through Bricktown and/or Deep Deuce to head in this direction now.

[Urban Pioneer]

Kerry, what do you mean by this?

"BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network."

[Kerry]

Kerry, what do you mean by this?

"BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network."

I was just refering to Platemakers vision of the route layout. His previous rendition showed the track going up Classen Dr and just catching the corner of the St Anthonys area. He changed it to take 10th St past St Anthonys to Classen and then north. As for the TIF funding comment, Steve had an article out 2 days ago that said the St Anthonys funding from TIF was not generating the return it was expecting.

[Spartan]

Ok, so let me get this straight. The loop around Robinson and Broadway becomes the transit mall and any streetcar coming into downtown take this loop. Due to the turn at Broadway and Sheridan streetcars will run in this loop in a clockwise direction. If correct, does this mean there is no hub because now instead of one central station we have a central loop? If we still have a hub won't streetcars be on the wrong side of the street to integrate with Sante Fe Station?

I think it would be better for the loop to run counter-clockwise (North on Broadway and south on Robinson). This would have 4 benefits.

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.
2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop
3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic
4. The little jog in the track necessary at EKGaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site becasue a stop could be added right in front of it..

The problem is still the tight turn on to Broadway whick leads me to my next observation. All of the street cars I have looked at (Portland, Toronto, Europe) have the street cars in the center of the roard, or as close to as they can. They never travel in the right lane. I assume this is so they don't get stuck behind cars waiting to make right turns and avoids possible accidents with parked cars (cars pulling out of parking spaces or opening doors). If this is correct then a streetcar should be able to make the turn from the left lane of Sheridan to Broadway pretty easy.

BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network.

Oh and Kerry, I would also avoid going near EKG. That whole intersection at 4th/Broadway/EKG is a really bad design. I would avoid putting rails just because you run the risk that the intersection might be improved for the better and risk having the rails ripped up and put in all over again. EKG needs to dead-end in front of the new Y, but maybe they'll eventually get around to that realization. There is no way to make that pedestrian-friendly as it currently exists. That site is also going to be developed by the Chamber.

[Urban Pioneer]

For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?

[mcca7596]

Both have strong residential and local retail elements; I would have to say the Plaza District deserves it more because of its proximity to OCU. It seems that a connection to a university area would encourage even more residential investment in its immediate area than that surrounding Paseo.

Conversely, I realize it could be argued that a connection to a thriving local art district such as Paseo is of equal or greater importance as one to an educational institution and would also appeal to visitors more.

Also, I would think a stop around the Greyhound station would be a great way to bring people to the east end of Sheridan and spur development of Film Row, but is perhaps not vital in the first phase, as the new streetscape will help so much on its own.

[Urban Pioneer]

For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?

Since were starting a new page I thought I'd "re-post" the question.

[Doug Loudenback]

For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?

I was wanting to ask about this, and I assume, but do not know, that you are primarily considering the possibility of extra money which may derive via the Alternative Analysis.

At the outset, since the pre-above-definition has not been identified, the 1st step, I think, is to do so, and in this order:

In addition to the CBD, the initial route needs to include:

1. Bricktown
2. Arterial connection to the Health Sciences Center

Now, if that is included as a given, I'd say that it is a coin-toss between Paseo and Plaza, and hopefully before its all done both would be included. But, if I'd have to pick only one today, I'd pick Plaza, for 2 reasons:

1. Paseo is going great and doesn't need much if any help
2. Plaza is off to a good start but still has a good way to go, and the help would be the most useful in this part of town.