OG&E Energy Center

[Motley]

Elementary schools exist in urban areas around the country. NYC has them on streets far busier than these. San Diego just put one in next to the Padres stadium which has throngs of people and traffic all around.

[LocoAko]

You all have some really good points and thank you for that. One angle I am shocked that no one brought up is this.

It (the interaction with the elementary school) has been brought up plenty of times, both at the DDRC meeting and in this thread.

[Just the facts]

I think you guys are delusional if you believe there is any chance at all of getting any urban minded people on any review boards. For every one of us the line behind LN is 50 people deep. That is the realization I have come to and am willing to accept.

[CaptDave]

Having a parking garage adjacent to the school isn't that big a deal in my opinion, but creating parking garage canyons void of any significant interaction with the sidewalk is a problem. Taking half a block for parking garages with little or no thought to the impact on the surrounding area is a problem. Not even considering alternatives to the easy way is a problem. It is simply very poor urban planning and our people we trust to provide oversight on these developers appear to have failed us. I do not think it would have cost so much more to improve the design that the project would have become unviable. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have our cake and eat it too when it comes to things like this because it has been done all over the world time and time again.

[gopokes88]

Man, the disillusion are running deep in here.


Why exactly, pray tell, shouldn't the government of the people, by the people, and for the people be within our control?

And why exactly when it violates its promises to produce a walkable, urban downtown environment shouldn't those people be upset?


Go live where giving a damn isn't trendy, for god's sake.

Those are nice ideas and all, but the reality is, he who holds the gold gets to make the rules. Throughout history this has held true over and over and over and over and over again.

I'm not suggesting to not give a damn. I'm suggesting to pick better fights and know when you are going to lose. Set expectations correctly. If someone in Oklahoma with the last name of Kerr, Bennett, Gaylord, Nichols, Kaiser, etc wants to get something done it's probably going to get done. They have the clout, money, and influence in this state to get it done. 499 and Stage Center were always going to be losing battles. Sure you can fight, but the expectation should be set that a loss is headed your way. Then there won't be such an emotional meltdown over it.

The Plaza, Paseo, Midtown, H&8, those are the wins people can get in this city by mobilizing. The scope isn't too large.

Instead in one corner there is a Fortune 500 company that is a pillar of the economy (Devon) and a very large bank (BOK) to build their office tower? Both of those have very very wealthy and influential businessman running them. In the other corner we have a handful of angry people who aren't happy it violates urban principles and they are armed with, what votes?

Did people really think they were going to win?

And yet you say I'm the delusional one.

I'm not pouncing on people. I'm telling them to be smarter and use energy on fights they can win.

Don't forget the context of your government by the people for the people quote. That was spoken in the middle of the deadliest war in American history trying to decide if the government should even treat some people as people. It's not like having a government by the people for the people is even a good thing sometimes, people are generally stupid. It's no silver bullet.

Oh and the North won that war because of the blockades they put on the South's exports, which ruined the South's economy. In other words, the North won because they had more money.

[pw405]

While I understand the appeals of creating urban a building with great urban design principals, I still struggle to see why the old buildings will be missed so much. This corner of downtown is about to explode with new developments and really bridge the gap between bricktown, CBD and Film Row. This is going to be very exciting.

If one could magically restore the entire Preftakes block and having everything nice and shiny with 100% occupancy, would that be preferred over what has been proposed? If so, why?

[On edit... realized this comment may fit better in the 499 Sheridan thread, but the thought experiment is relevant to Stage Center too.

[David]

Accompanying question, what percentage of occupancy did the block have before Preftakes started buying buildings and ending leases, and what shape were the buildings in? Don't forget that that block is only empty of tenants and in disrepair because the people who bought it up intentionally allowed it to decay.

[Bellaboo]

nm

[Bellaboo]

Those are nice ideas and all, but the reality is, he who holds the gold gets to make the rules. Throughout history this has held true over and over and over and over and over again.

I'm not suggesting to not give a damn. I'm suggesting to pick better fights and know when you are going to lose. Set expectations correctly. If someone in Oklahoma with the last name of Kerr, Bennett, Gaylord, Nichols, Kaiser, etc wants to get something done it's probably going to get done. They have the clout, money, and influence in this state to get it done. 499 and Stage Center were always going to be losing battles. Sure you can fight, but the expectation should be set that a loss is headed your way. Then there won't be such an emotional meltdown over it.

The Plaza, Paseo, Midtown, H&8, those are the wins people can get in this city by mobilizing. The scope isn't too large.

Instead in one corner there is a Fortune 500 company that is a pillar of the economy (Devon) and a very large bank (BOK) to build their office tower? Both of those have very very wealthy and influential businessman running them. In the other corner we have a handful of angry people who aren't happy it violates urban principles and they are armed with, what votes?

Did people really think they were going to win?

And yet you say I'm the delusional one.

I'm not pouncing on people. I'm telling them to be smarter and use energy on fights they can win.

Don't forget the context of your government by the people for the people quote. That was spoken in the middle of the deadliest war in American history trying to decide if the government should even treat some people as people. It's not like having a government by the people for the people is even a good thing sometimes, people are generally stupid. It's no silver bullet.

Oh and the North won that war because of the blockades they put on the South's exports, which ruined the South's economy. In other words, the North won because they had more money.

This ^^^

[Eddie1]

^^
The best post in the past past several days.

[hoya]

While I understand the appeals of creating urban a building with great urban design principals, I still struggle to see why the old buildings will be missed so much. This corner of downtown is about to explode with new developments and really bridge the gap between bricktown, CBD and Film Row. This is going to be very exciting.

If one could magically restore the entire Preftakes block and having everything nice and shiny with 100% occupancy, would that be preferred over what has been proposed? If so, why?

[On edit... realized this comment may fit better in the 499 Sheridan thread, but the thought experiment is relevant to Stage Center too.

I think the issue is that it would be fairly easy to have the new buildings and keep the old buildings too. The 499 building is designed at an angle. Think of it as a guy who parks his car angled across two parking spaces, taking up both of them. The 499 building will have a plaza area immediately in front of it, and it will have a triangular empty space immediately behind it, between it and the parking garage. If you took out that angled 'parking', and did nothing else to the design, you'd have enough room for the Hotel Black to stay exactly where it is. You'd almost have enough room for the Auto Hotel to remain as well.

Accompanying question, what percentage of occupancy did the block have before Preftakes started buying buildings and ending leases, and what shape were the buildings in? Don't forget that that block is only empty of tenants and in disrepair because the people who bought it up intentionally allowed it to decay.

I don't have a percentage, but they were pretty full. Maybe one or two of the smaller buildings were unoccupied. The rest had people in them, the Hotel Black as recently as 2014.

[Motley]

There was obviously a vision by Hines and Nichols and the architect to make a corporate campus type of development at that corner which didn't include the old buildings. It was masterminded and did not take into consideration anyone else's views. I think that is what makes most people frustrated. The inner circle got their way, 100%. However, the outcome, IMO, is not horrible at all. There is one strip of parking canyon on Walker, but much of the rest of the block will have retail and activity. Could be better, could have taken into consideration the wants of others, but in the end it is not a total loss. The one thing that must be followed through is populating the retail and restaurant space. Purposely left empty by the powers-that-be will be a complete finger to everyone.

Also if you read Steve's final words on the subject, he feels they would have liked to take into consideration the views of others, but the needs for Devon trumped everything. That doesn't make it right, but I can understand that Nichols has to do what is best for Devon. That is his mandate, so if that is true, I don't contribute the decisions made here to malice. They are doing what they feel is the right thing to do for the stockholders and employees of Devon. Shortsighted, yes, just like much of the modern corporate world but not malicious.

[Laramie]

.

Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed.

...

[Rover]

The best thing we can do is get out in front and try to lead by recruiting the RIGHT people to be in leadership positions that wield power. Sometimes I think we just wait to see who is running and then pick the least objectionable to our viewpoint. We need to create leaders that will stand up, and quit being surprised that who is there represents traditional interests. Candidates need to be identified, groomed, financed and supported actively to get changes that yield different thoughts. Grass roots political activism is more productive than protesting after the fact. It is hard work, but it works. Working in committees and playing by the rules is great, but not nearly as effective as getting seats on the council and changing the rules.

[CaptDave]

The best thing we can do is get out in front and try to lead by recruiting the RIGHT people to be in leadership positions that wield power. Sometimes I think we just wait to see who is running and then pick the least objectionable to our viewpoint. We need to create leaders that will stand up, and quit being surprised that who is there represents traditional interests. Candidates need to be identified, groomed, financed and supported actively to get changes that yield different thoughts. Grass roots political activism is more productive than protesting after the fact. It is hard work, but it works. Working in committees and playing by the rules is great, but not nearly as effective as getting seats on the council and changing the rules.

Wish there was a 'Like' button for this one.

[DoctorTaco]

Will I be the first to point out the irony that the only person in local elected government--the ONLY person--who has stood up to "the powers that be" and asked the hard questions is the forum-wide villain Ed Shadid.*


*And I'm saying this as a pretty rabid Cornett supporter who even wrote a somewhat widely-circulated blog post last spring about it.

[pw405]

Given the efforts to save Stage Center and turn it in to something new (efforts that were led by a family member of mine), help me understand the viewpoint that this was a failure of the local leadership? Stage Center was a unique architectural building - I get that - however, it seems increasingly apparent that the building was literally useless. The intended use wasn't economically viable, and alternative uses weren't either. Not trying to spark a flame war, I just don't see how we can blame the leadership for what I feel were essentially poor design choices by the architect that led to the building not being economically feasible.

[Just the facts]

Given the efforts to save Stage Center and turn it in to something new (efforts that were led by a family member of mine), help me understand the viewpoint that this was a failure of the local leadership? Stage Center was a unique architectural building - I get that - however, it seems increasingly apparent that the building was literally useless. The intended use wasn't economically viable, and alternative uses weren't either. Not trying to spark a flame war, I just don't see how we can blame the leadership for what I feel were essentially poor design choices by the architect that led to the building not being economically feasible.

For me, losing Stage Center wasn't the failure in leadership - approving the proposed replacement was the failure. The same goes for 499 Sheridan.

[pw405]

Are you referring to the original proposal of the single tower, or the new 4 tower proposal?

[soonerguru]

Having a parking garage adjacent to the school isn't that big a deal in my opinion, but creating parking garage canyons void of any significant interaction with the sidewalk is a problem. Taking half a block for parking garages with little or no thought to the impact on the surrounding area is a problem. Not even considering alternatives to the easy way is a problem. It is simply very poor urban planning and our people we trust to provide oversight on these developers appear to have failed us. I do not think it would have cost so much more to improve the design that the project would have become unviable. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have our cake and eat it too when it comes to things like this because it has been done all over the world time and time again.

This is the CAN'T DO city. We just can't do it: There's water there. No underground parking. LOL. And Holland is under sea level and is doing just fine.

Cheaping out. Low standards. Little regard for the past. A downtown increasingly devoid of character or texture. Certainly, this is not a recipe for a "big league city."

It would be nice if Claes Oldenburg would propose one of his whimsical city monuments. Perhaps a large, pink urinal cake would be a fitting three-dimensional reminder of our city's efforts to blithely sanitize all but the most banal, "shiny" architecture.

[SoonerBoy18]

Took a 7 month Hiatus from this website, miss it so much. I had no idea this "Mystery tower" of 2011 actually turned out to be something after all. I am really late on OKC news.

[Bellaboo]

Are you referring to the original proposal of the single tower, or the new 4 tower proposal?

JTF wants the residential to front the park.

[bchris02]

JTF wants the residential to front the park.

Yeah, the Clayco project is only acceptable to JTF if it is flipped with the residential towers fronting the park and the office towers behind them. Me personally, I will be thrilled if this gets built as shown in the rendering. I am concerned that parts of this are going to be scaled back or scrapped altogether due to falling oil prices.

[pw405]

Yeah, the Clayco project is only acceptable to JTF if it is flipped with the residential towers fronting the park and the office towers behind them. Me personally, I will be thrilled if this gets built as shown in the rendering. I am concerned that parts of this are going to be scaled back or scrapped altogether due to falling oil prices.

Lower fuel costs increase margins for utility companies right? Help me understand how a drop in crude will affect this project?

[Urbanized]

It could affect the housing component because that upscale housing will likely depend upon energy-sector executives or those invested in the energy business (which is most people of means in OKC). The other office tower could be delayed because it is spec office, which might not make sense if local companies are contracting rather than expanding.