Paycom Center (formerly Chesapeake Arena)

[warreng88]

If you read the article you may have missed this because it was mentioned somewhat in passing near the end:
Thunder economic impact estimate tops $64 million for the current season. | News OK

Some economists have noted that economic impact figures surrounding sporting events fail to account for the fact that residents are merely shifting their entertainment spending.

This very point was argued by both Seattle and the Sonics during the trial. For example, when Bennett was trying to get a new arena, the Sonics had a tremendous economic impact, but when he was trying to get out of their lease, they argued that the Sonics had little to no economic impact. To be fair, Seattle did the same flip-flop concerning economic impact.

I have heard this argument more times than I would like to count and I still don't buy it. Just because I am going to the game doesn't mean if I wasn't going I would spend that money elsewhere. I'll give you an example: My wife signed up for smart hours through OG&E and won four tickets to Game 5 versus the Grizzlies. The two of us and her two sisters went to the game. We all bought BBQ at the game and ended up spending around $75 in drinks and snacks. Our (my wife and I) plan for that evening was to stay home, cook dinner and just stay in and watch TV. Her two sisters were going to get off work and go home. So, because we got tickets to the game, we spent an extra $75. If we wouldn't have gotten tickets, we wouldn't have spent that money. Most games we go to (5-7 a year) we get the tickets for free and they are usually last minute so we aren't shifting our spending, we are spending money that we otherwise wouldn't have spent had it not been for the game.

[BDP]

Hmm. looking at your post, i am not seeing a single cite either????

I posted the archived article earlier for your reference.

But you do recall that season or two when the waiting list of thousands vanished completely and they didn't sell all of the season tickets???

No waiting list! GASP! Do you realize how rare season ticket waiting lists are? Given that the Thunder has consistently been in the top third of the league in ticket sales, while maintaining a renewal rate well above the league average even in the worst economic years, questioning their performance in that aspect just comes off as ignorant. The Thunder has outperformed many larger markets in season ticket sales and rentention, no matter what year you want to talk about. Here's some perspective:

2008:

13,000 Thunder season tickets were sold Friday, and the team has put names on a waiting list for games at the Ford Center.

Waiting list begun for Oklahoma City season tickets - NBA - ESPN

2008:

Oklahoma's NBA franchise will join the Celtics, Lakers and Suns as one of only four teams with season ticket waiting lists.

Thunder season tickets sold out - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

2009 (aka the worst economic year in decades)

Senior vice president of ticket sales and service Brian Byrnes said Wednesday the team projects a renewal rate of about 83 or 84 percent.

Despite economy, Thunder season ticket sales remain strong » Sports » MuskogeePhoenix.com, Muskogee, OK

2010:

League officials would not disclose which team ranks the highest in new full-season-ticket sales, but the five teams with the highest number of new full sales are the Chicago Bulls, Miami Heat, New York Knicks, Oklahoma City Thunder and Orlando Magic.


Offseason frenzy drives NBA box office - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal | SportsBusiness Daily Global

2010:

93 percent of the Thunder’s Season Ticket Members have renewed their seats for the 2010-11 season.

Oklahoma City Thunder 2009-10 By the Numbers | THE OFFICIAL SITE OF THE OKLAHOMA CITY THUNDER

2012:

Just six weeks into its 2012-13 season-ticket renewal campaign, the Oklahoma City Thunder already has sold out its full-season-ticket allotment for next year, the earliest the small-market franchise has sold out of its inventory.

Thunder sells out '12-13 season tickets, starts wait list - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal | SportsBusiness Daily Global

Some economists have noted that economic impact figures surrounding sporting events fail to account for the fact that residents are merely shifting their entertainment spending.

I could see this being true in markets where there are a ton of major entertainment events from which to choose on a daily basis. However, this just isn't the case in Oklahoma. You'd be hard pressed to come up with another entertainment option in the state of Oklahoma where you could spend the same amount of money in a year as people do on season tickets. But let's give it a shot. An average season ticket price is $47.15 (OKC Thunder: Season-ticket prices going up for 2013-14 season | News OK) or $1980.30 for a 42 game season (41 home games and a preseason game). So, if you were going to spend that money elsewhere on tickets to entertainment in Oklahoma City, you'd have to:

- Go to 249.7 movies with an average ticket price of $7.93 (NATO | Statistics | Average U.S. Ticket Prices)

- Go to the zoo 247.53 times with adult admission at $8 (- Oklahoma City Zoo)

- Go to the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum 158.42 times with an adult admission of $12.50 (Plan Your Visit!)

- Go to the Science Museum 165.71 times with adult admission at $11.95 (Tickets | Science Museum Oklahoma)

- Go to Frontier City or White Water 73.37 times (or just buy 28 season passes) (https://www.frontiercity.com/buy-tic...ily-admission/)

- Go to 62 average concerts or see Paul McCartney 14 times (Digital Music News - The Average Price for a Concert Ticket? $31.57...)

- Buy 2.75 Red Hawks season tickets (field seats) (http://www.milb.com/documents/2011/1...Field_Seat.pdf)

- Buy 2.26 "Blue Level" season tickets to the Barons (OKC Barons | The Official Site of The Oklahoma City Barons)

- Go to the OKCMOA 165 times (Hours and Admissions :: OKCMOA)

Feel free to add to this list.

So, as you can see, if the average season ticket holder was spending $2000 a year on tickets to entertainment events before they bought thunder tickets, it would be pretty freakin amazing if all of these events were in Oklahoma City. Now if the equivalent of Disney World, LegoLand, Six Flags, Sea World, the Staples Center, and Broadway were in Oklahoma City along with multiple major league franchises, then yeah, that $2000 would probably represent a shift away from somewhere else. But I seriously doubt any Thunder ticket holder has gone to 200+ movies in a year...

[warreng88]

You could buy five tickets to all Lyric Theater productions sitting in the center orchestra for all eight shows this next year.

[Rover]

You could buy five tickets to all Lyric Theater productions sitting in the center orchestra for all eight shows this next year.

Probably a bad example as the Broadway Series has the highest renewal rate in the country with record season ticket holders, and the Lyric is right there with them. The Thunder not only don't take from them, the Thunder has helped raise the awareness nationally of OKC as a major entertainment market and is helping attract top tier shows.

[BDP]

And about the seats

FWIW, Chesapeake's seats are 19"-22" wide (Managers adjusting arena seats Ford Center staff reworking armrest, cup holder placement | News OK).

For comparison, here are some widths of other venues:

Cox Arena: 18" - 21" (see above)
Staples Center: 19.5" - 21" (Raising the Roof - Los Angeles Times)
Yankee Stadium: 19" - 24" (Yankee Stadium Comparison | yankees.com: Ballpark)
BofA Stadium: 19" - 21" (Carolina Panthers | Stadium Facts Overview)


And a coach airline seat is typically 17" - 18" (Business: The Chair)

[Rover]

Let's not let facts get in the way of a few good complaints. LOL

[HangryHippo]

Let's not let facts get in the way of a few good complaints. LOL

Facts? So the fact that there are other seats in the world that are within the same size range means the seats in the arena aren't too narrow? Okay, that makes a lot of sense. You're so right.

Your condescension is getting old. The seats in the Chesapeake Energy Arena are too narrow and are uncomfortable. I'm not sure what width seat I have, 19" or 22", but the one I sit in is uncomfortably narrow. As for the other arenas, we weren't talking about any of them. I don't know a single person that finds airline coach seats to be pleasantly spacious.

[BDP]

Facts? So the fact that there are other seats in the world that are within the same size range means the seats in the arena aren't too narrow?

Well, yes, sort of. It at least means that if the seats are too narrow in the Chesapeake, then they are too narrow in most venues. The reality is that wider seats mean less seats in the same amount of space, so the city and the designer have to consider capacity and cost and then built it to typical standards. I guess I just don't understand why Oklahoma City should be expected to go bigger than even some of the best and newest venues around. I'm not trying to be condescending. Just practical.

I don't know a single person that finds airline coach seats to be pleasantly spacious.

Very true, but people sit in them with nothing to do for much longer than they do for a concert or basketball game. It was mainly just for comparison / perspective.

[Rover]

The fact is that the seats are very competitive with every new venue I have been at across America for the past 10 years. But, in the sense that obesity is a major problem and that we may need to keep widening the seats, maybe you are correct.

I suggest that you now go to Penn Square AMC to the movies too. They have big, big recliners for seats, like Lazyboys. However, I doubt you will find any of those at ANY arena for a good long while....like never. Or, you can take a suite in the arena maybe put a sofa.

[HangryHippo]

Well, yes, sort of. It at least means that if the seats are too narrow in the Chesapeake, then they are too narrow in most venues. The reality is that wider seats mean less seats in the same amount of space, so the city and the designer have to consider capacity and cost and then built it to typical standards. I guess I just don't understand why Oklahoma City should be expected to go bigger than even some of the best and newest venues around. I'm not trying to be condescending. Just practical.



Very true, but people sit in them with nothing to do for much longer than they do for a concert or basketball game. It was mainly just for comparison / perspective.

BDP, I appreciate the comparison for the sake of perspective. I haven't been to the Cox Center since high school, but I've been to every other arena you mentioned within in the last 18 months and the seats didn't feel as narrow as CHK's did to me.

Rover, obesity probably does have a lot to do with the seats being uncomfortable. I should clarify that I fit in my seat pretty well; my problem is how cramped it becomes when someone sits next to me. I'm 6' 1", so I'm not that tall, but I can say that when I go to the games, I feel exceedingly cramped and I have to squeeze my shoulders in and it's just really uncomfortable. The seats may be competitive with other venues, but with people getting bigger, we may need to look at bigger seats and adjust capacity and design accordingly.

What's the point of your theatre comment? Weight joke? Something else?

[OKCNDN]

I could see this being true in markets where there are a ton of major entertainment events from which to choose on a daily basis. However, this just isn't the case in Oklahoma. You'd be hard pressed to come up with another entertainment option in the state of Oklahoma where you could spend the same amount of money in a year as people do on season tickets. But let's give it a shot. An average season ticket price is $47.15 (OKC Thunder: Season-ticket prices going up for 2013-14 season | News OK) or $1980.30 for a 42 game season (41 home games and a preseason game). So, if you were going to spend that money elsewhere on tickets to entertainment in Oklahoma City, you'd have to:

- Go to 249.7 movies with an average ticket price of $7.93 (NATO | Statistics | Average U.S. Ticket Prices)

- Go to the zoo 247.53 times with adult admission at $8 (- Oklahoma City Zoo)

- Go to the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum 158.42 times with an adult admission of $12.50 (Plan Your Visit!)

- Go to the Science Museum 165.71 times with adult admission at $11.95 (Tickets | Science Museum Oklahoma)

- Go to Frontier City or White Water 73.37 times (or just buy 28 season passes) (https://www.frontiercity.com/buy-tic...ily-admission/)

- Go to 62 average concerts or see Paul McCartney 14 times (Digital Music News - The Average Price for a Concert Ticket? $31.57...)

- Buy 2.75 Red Hawks season tickets (field seats) (http://www.milb.com/documents/2011/1...Field_Seat.pdf)

- Buy 2.26 "Blue Level" season tickets to the Barons (OKC Barons | The Official Site of The Oklahoma City Barons)

- Go to the OKCMOA 165 times (Hours and Admissions :: OKCMOA)

Feel free to add to this list.

So, as you can see, if the average season ticket holder was spending $2000 a year on tickets to entertainment events before they bought thunder tickets, it would be pretty freakin amazing if all of these events were in Oklahoma City. Now if the equivalent of Disney World, LegoLand, Six Flags, Sea World, the Staples Center, and Broadway were in Oklahoma City along with multiple major league franchises, then yeah, that $2000 would probably represent a shift away from somewhere else. But I seriously doubt any Thunder ticket holder has gone to 200+ movies in a year...

You are only counting entertainment dollars spent on Thunder games on a season-level only. Lots and lots of people go to single games or a handful of games each season. These people would have or could have spent their dollars elsewhere.

Example: Instead of going to the movies they went to a Thunder game. Instead of going to an OU game they went to a Thunder game, instead of the casino..etc.. And it is surely not just event/attraction-related dollars being spent on Thunder games. Dollars from other areas most certainly have been spent on Thunder games. Instead of going to eat out at Del Rancho, instead of instead of buying that video game, instead of buying that jet ski, settling for a lesser vehicle than they could have bought, buying that new computer, etc..

And they have definitely been people that did things the wrong way and instead of taking care of what should be taken care of went to a Thunder game instead. Examples of that: putting off getting the brakes fixed, not paying that electric in full and on time, putting off buying their kid a decent coat, etc..

Lots and lots of dollars surely went to Thunder games instead of other areas.

[Rover]

What's the point of your theatre comment? Weight joke? Something else?

No, I'm sorry. All I am saying is that we shouldn't expect the seats at arenas to be like our recliners at home....but pointing out there are exceptions like Penn Sq. AMC. Every football stadium, basketball arena, etc. I have gone too feels cramped to me and I am 5'11" and not heavy. It's just the way EVERY major venue seems to be. I would love big spacious seats with elbow room, but they aren't out there. And flying is worse...my last trip to was 8 hours to Europe and all I could get was a coach standard seat in the main cabin and I don't think I could move my legs for a week.

[jn1780]

You are only counting entertainment dollars spent on Thunder games on a season-level only. Lots and lots of people go to single games or a handful of games each season. These people would have or could have spent their dollars elsewhere.

Example: Instead of going to the movies they went to a Thunder game. Instead of going to an OU game they went to a Thunder game, instead of the casino..etc.. And it is surely not just event/attraction-related dollars being spent on Thunder games. Dollars from other areas most certainly have been spent on Thunder games. Instead of going to eat out at Del Rancho, instead of instead of buying that video game, instead of buying that jet ski, settling for a lesser vehicle than they could have bought, buying that new computer, etc..

And they have definitely been people that did things the wrong way and instead of taking care of what should be taken care of went to a Thunder game instead. Examples of that: putting off getting the brakes fixed, not paying that electric in full and on time, putting off buying their kid a decent coat, etc..

Lots and lots of dollars surely went to Thunder games instead of other areas.

You can say that about everthing in the world of economics and business. The question is does an activity or business bring more value to the community. A Thunder game certainly has a greater chance of increasing the size of the economy by making the area more actractive to businesses than a guy eating a bag of chips he bought at Walmart sitting on his couch watching a movie he rented at redbox.

Its just like how a new Walmart can also revitalized an area when other businesses build around that Walmart.

[Rover]

The biggest impact is probably the amount spent on those coming from out of town. I know several who come in from smaller towns in Oklahoma, as well as Tulsa and Wichita. They weren't going to come here and spend money 40 nights a year without the Thunder. Add in 1000 or so room nights from the visiting team and media (expensive room nights). Add traffic through the airport. Add national advertising on local stations. Add taxes paid. Etc., etc.

[BDP]

You are only counting entertainment dollars spent on Thunder games on a season-level only. Lots and lots of people go to single games or a handful of games each season. These people would have or could have spent their dollars elsewhere.

Example: Instead of going to the movies they went to a Thunder game. Instead of going to an OU game they went to a Thunder game, instead of the casino..etc.. And it is surely not just event/attraction-related dollars being spent on Thunder games. Dollars from other areas most certainly have been spent on Thunder games. Instead of going to eat out at Del Rancho, instead of instead of buying that video game, instead of buying that jet ski, settling for a lesser vehicle than they could have bought, buying that new computer, etc..

And they have definitely been people that did things the wrong way and instead of taking care of what should be taken care of went to a Thunder game instead. Examples of that: putting off getting the brakes fixed, not paying that electric in full and on time, putting off buying their kid a decent coat, etc..

Lots and lots of dollars surely went to Thunder games instead of other areas.

No doubt the comparison has its specious qualities, but I wanted to limit as many variables as possible, so I limited it to specifically ticket sales. And, because the original qualifaction specifically mentioned "entertainment dollars", I included only entertainment expenses. I chose season tickets because they account for roughly 14,000 of the tickets sold for each game, or about 75% of capacity and we readily know the average price of those tickets. Certainly no economic analysis can capture the opportunity cost of every dollar spent on Thunder games. Surly, and logically, many many people have shifted their dollars from other areas to go to Thunder games. But even in those cases, we know that those dollars, along with most of the tangential spending associated with going to a game like food, drinks, lodging, parking, etc., were spent in Oklahoma City and that's really the key here.

The population of Oklahoma City is half that of the entire metro and about 16% of the state (Oklahoma City metropolitan area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, https://www.google.com/search?q=popu...ient=firefox-a, https://www.google.com/search?q=popu...ient=firefox-a). A lot of those people outside of Oklahoma City will buy food, video games, cars, jet skis, and computers outside of the city. But there is only one place they can go to see a Thunder game. So again, while they may be shifting it from other purchases, many are also shifting it to Oklahoma City. My obviously over simplified analysis was more to highlight that in Oklahoma City, as opposed to other larger markets with more high profile entertainment options readily available, the Thunder creates an economic demand for entertainment and tourist dollars within Oklahoma City on a scale that does not exist anywhere else in the city or state, with the possible exception of the horse show circuit. All things being equal, there certainly would be diminishing returns as more high profile attractions are added, but even that would only be the case if the city's and state's population and wealth remained flat or declined.

You'd have to analyze the budgets of every person who bought a season ticket to satisfy every possibility. Is the positive economic impact as good as the best projections? Probably not. But when you really begin to look at it, it becomes very hard to support an argument that it has had a negative impact for the city of Oklahoma City.

[UnFrSaKn]

Film Exchange Building (July 23 2013) - a set on Flickr

[UnFrSaKn]

Devon Energy Center Aerials (July 26 2013) - a set on Flickr

[OklahomaNick]

In my opinion the new Chesapeake Arena sign they installed on the new grand entrance is very underwhelming.
It's all black set on a dark backdrop of the new glass, and you really can't even see it!

[Snowman]

In my opinion the new Chesapeake Arena sign they installed on the new grand entrance is very underwhelming.
It's all black set on a dark backdrop of the new glass, and you really can't even see it!

It is a little odd they did not do something to stylistically get a similar metal background behind the tops of the letters to make it show off more evenly but it is not intended to be seen miles off while driving highway speeds, it looks like it's design could be part of the effort to have nicer signage downtown for pedestrians.

[bluedogok]

It will probably pop at night with the lighting.

[Plutonic Panda]

Film Exchange Building (July 23 2013) - a set on Flickr

These pics would look a lot better if that billboard wasn't there and the utility lines were buried. Does anyone know if they are going to do that with the new boulevard?

[bombermwc]

Unfortunately, the overhead shots make the additions feel even more like an afterthought. Like they got slapped on later...like they did. Too bad they couldn't be more incorporated into the flow of the building. Maybe complete the wrapping a bit more to connect to the existing entrance structure. But hey, they got the cash they got and that's it. Do what you can with what you get right? The place is still a great arena.

[BDP]

Unfortunately, the overhead shots make the additions feel even more like an afterthought. Like they got slapped on later...like they did. Too bad they couldn't be more incorporated into the flow of the building. Maybe complete the wrapping a bit more to connect to the existing entrance structure. But hey, they got the cash they got and that's it. Do what you can with what you get right? The place is still a great arena.

I kind of think the decision to go with the glass and metal look was probably misguided. IMO, that's what gives it the "add-on" look more than anything. But I agree the guts to this place are very nice and, really, that's what matters most.

[dankrutka]

More tha anything, development is still years away on the south side. By the time people start seeing it from that angle regularly we'll be talking about a new arena.

[BDP]

More tha anything, development is still years away on the south side. By the time people start seeing it from that angle regularly we'll be talking about a new arena.

And even when the south side is developed, I still bet there will always be a higher concentration of restaurants and bars to the north, meaning the north side entrance will always get as much or more of the foot traffic. I do think placement was based on what might be instead of what is. Probably not the best way to do it, imo.