OKC or TULSA? Which Metro Has The Most Long-Term Growth Potential?

[Rage 2.0]

Anybody see the article in the JR about Vanguard and Dollar-Thrifty merging?

Yeah-- It would create the 3rd largest rent-a-car company in the US...

[bombermwc]

Now if they would just pick a single name for these places...geez. Dollar-Thrifty-Budget-etc...all of them operating with different names but IN the same company!!!!

[jbrown84]

Some articles are saying Dollar-Thrifty is a subsidiary of Chysler, but I was under the impression they were Tulsa based, and had separated from Chrysler.

[Rage 2.0]

Dollar Thrifty is owned by the guy married to the mayor of Tulsa... Maybe their are some ties to Chysler but it's a Tulsan...

They need to create a good name-- I wonder which one they would keep...

I like Vanguard

[jbrown84]

No, Vanguard is owned by the mayor's husband, and he only moved it there in the last 2 or 3 years. Dollar-Thrifty's been there longer.

[Rage 2.0]

Wait are you sure??? It can't be because he lived in Florida before Tulsa but always had a house...

Then the mayor just got finished building this mega house (set a record for last year according to the books) and it's a diffrent guy... Im pretty sure its Dollar CEO...

[jbrown84]

I remember hearing about it. Vanguard was based in Ft. Lauderdale or Miami and he bought it or took it over and moved it to Tulsa because that's where his wife lived. (she wasn't mayor at the time, she was something else)

[RickyBobby]

Hey folks, this isnt a zero sum game. OKC and Tulsa can co-exist and BOTH be great cities in thier own right. Having said that, the private sector is great and all, and I'm all for business start-ups, but the big corporations are the one's the support most of the charities and fundraisers in Oklahoma. The ones I see are Devon, Chesapeake and OGE. Maybe Williams and Oneok contribute in T-town, but its not statewide. In any case, Oklahoma is picking up momentum and I, for one, say let's roll.

[bombermwc]

AMEN Ricky. Both cities have potential to really blossom in their own ways. The cosmopolitan nature of life in both towns has improved dramatically and will only get better.

[JWil]

And, for the record, What exists in Oklahoma City IS promoted as being Oklahoma. Here in Tulsa we don’t have red dirt, we don’t have a lot of cowboys, we actually have hills, trees and rivers. We are not located on the plains. No dust bowl. There was no land run here. All of these things are heavily promoted as being fundamental to Oklahoma, and just simply aren’t true here.

See, it's crap like this that made this Los Angeleno start to despise Tulsans. Everything above is nothing more than shortsided slams. Typical Tulsan.

And oh, if you wanna brag about rivers, hills and trees, give NASHVILLE (another capital city) a call. I'm sure they're laugh at what Tulsa has.

It's times like these I wish Sequoyah did become a state and Oklahoma wouldn't have to deal with this Tulsa arrogance.

[In_Tulsa]

JWil just move to Tulsa you Know you want to.

[JWil]

JWil just move to Tulsa you Know you want to.

Haha and I know you're not a friend in real-life. The only good thing about Tulsa is I-44 to St. Louis so I can see the Cardinals.

[In_Tulsa]

Denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's ok alot of people live with it.

[Edmond_Outsider]

Because of MAPS, Bricktown, and the snowball effect it has had in the Midtown/Tinker region, OKC has serious momentum as a city. Tulsa has been trying and failing to do something similar but recently shot itself in the foot when voting down their similar opportunity to develop recently.

For the first time in the past 25 years I've been central, OKC has a place you can point any type visitor to where they can go to do stuff. Bricktown and downtown has restaurants, nightlife, sports, etc, the midtown area is becoming a premium place to work and live, the new history museum is world class, a little farther north there's even more cultural and ethnic hot spots.

The growth in tourism has spread to the the mid/del area where you have thousands of brand new hotel rooms including the Sheraton/reed center and the world class venues at Rose State.

All in all, there's huge room for cultural growth which give OKC a major boost for attracting new business. It hasn't managed to capitalize on that yet, but the infrastructure and environment are perfectly suited for that.

SO, OKC will have significant growth in the next decade and could find itself the new happening metro area.

Tulsa is about ten years behind in developing a similar environment. However, there is a serious heritage to draw upon if it manages to get the citizens behind a large scale development initiative.

Where Tulsa has an advantage, right now, is to the east in Porter with the new Google facility. The technology corridor in the not so distant city, could fuel a huge new industrial base for Tulsa. Porter will have huge growth because of this business which will attract other similar high end technology businesses.

Few of these workers will live in Porter--it is too isolated and rural--but there are dozens of suburbs on the east and southeast side of Tulsa which will house these new workers. As a result, Tulsa could see the kind of development Austin Texas and numerous other regional technology hubs have had over the past decade.

So, my prediction is both areas are situated right now for significant growth. The kinds of growth will be different but they are both in the right place to capitalize on opportunities.

They could also blow it with only a few wrong steps.

If Devon and Chesapeake crater, that will stunt OKC.

IF Tulsa continues to vote against funding civic development, that will stunt it's opportunities.

However, both have some serious momentum going right now.

It's exciting to see.

[betts]

I don't see any contest. Oklahoma City feels like it's on the move and Tulsa feels like it's trying to hold on to what it had. I like both cities, but Oklahoma City reminds me of Charlotte twenty years ago.

[BDP]

If Devon and Chesapeake crater, that will stunt OKC.

Which brings the key point to long term success: diversify. diversify. diversify. Oklahoma City has relied far too long on energy and agricultural commodities for its wealth. It will be key to see either new industries evolve or see these companies invest in newer more up and coming industries. We have seen this some in the bio-engineering sector, but we can hardly call ourselves a leader in this sector at this point. We all remember the dot-com bust, but it will still be key to increase the share of technology development and technology services in our portfolio. I doubt we can become a major player in that field anytime soon, but we still need some of it for stability and growth. As we all know, the energy sector could collapse within months and, for now, as energy goes so goes Oklahoma City and no NBA team, cultural center, or rational zoning codes will fix that. That needs to change.

[Edmond_Outsider]

Actually, energy and agriculture are way secondary to state and federal government.

Tinker AFB and the State of OK are the biggest single employers. Add to that Tinker's supporting businesses and the other govenment employers and you have energy and agriculture outnumbered by a factor of about ten.

Cheasapeake and Devon are mere drops in the bucket. But they are still major employers we can't really afford to lose.

The main point is well taken, however. We need lots more diversity. It Tinker were to close--and there's no reason to think it will in the near future--our local economy would go to hell.

I think we are diversifying. Dell, Hertz, Loves, Hobby Lobby, all continue to grow.

Hopefully these kinds of big employers will continue to find OKC.

[metro]

Edmond_Outsider,

Don't forget about Quad Graphics, Dobson (which was bought out by AT&T, don't know if jobs are relocating yet or not though), American Fidelity, SandRidge Energy, Century Martial Arts, Lopez Foods, York, and others are all major employers in OKC.

Oh and Google is locating to Pryor, not Porter (which I'm not even sure if that's a town in Oklahoma).

[BDP]

Actually, energy and agriculture are way secondary to state and federal government.

Which is probably another reason for concern.

[bombermwc]

Why would government be a concern? Tinker has proven time and again that it won't be going anywhere, and is in fact growing. The new Boeing facility across from the base (17 hangers folks) is under construction. Plus Tinker is interested in purchsing the GM facility.

State wise, as long as there is a state/local government, there will be offices that have to be staffed. And since the state has shown an increase in the amount of office space over the last 10 years, then I don't see how you can be worried about it. FYI - the office space in Shepard Mall is significantly heavy on the government sector until they move into a new building on Lincoln that has been discussed for some time.

Now, I can agree on the energy sector issue. We definitely rely heavily on energy in OKC, but so does Tulsa. All I have to say is Williams. But OKC has also been working hard to diversify it's economy ever since the oil bust. It has really only taken off after MAPs. Energy makes a lot of money, and will continue to do so until an alternative fuel is found. The only question will be, will the companies here get boughy by someone larger.

[Edmond_Outsider]

I said Tinker going away wasn't likely. But, even the biggest base can be closed with the stroke of a pen and I don't have confidence our distinquished legislators will even notice until its too late.

Considering what impact it would have--aye yi yi.

Regardless, I think we are primed for major growth.

[stlokc]

BomberMWC,
I agree that having Tinker AFB and the state government in OKC insulates OKC a little bit from the shocks of the energy industry. But government does not pay nearly as high a salary as most of the most thriving private-sector opportunities. And it really shouldn't - that would require higher taxes which would stunt the growth of the whole rest of the economy. If you are looking for a reason why OKC has a lower average income than most other cities, even other cities in this part of the country, that is a prime reason. Working in government or at Tinker are very noble pursuits, but relying on those sectors isn't going to bring increased prosperity by itself. Now ancillary industries like Boeing are a fantastic side-effect of Tinker, and should be encouraged at all levels, but I would be wary of resting on the twin laurels of energy and government. Look what happened in the 1980s. The best thing OKC can do is to use its current relative wealth and optimism to diversify like crazy.

[adaniel]

OK haven't posted in a while but considering I've been dating a girl from Tulsa since this summer I think I have some perspective...

When it comes to the 2 cities, I think there are some definite advantages each has. Tulsa...well, they have hills...and trees, and that's about it. I'm not trying to be ugly, but I think overall OKC has left Tulsa in the dust. The biggest asset to this area I think are the huge amount of untapped "brain power" in this area's schools. Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere that OKC has the 5th highest percentage of college students of metros between 1 and 3 million. Not bad. Its unfortunate that OKC is only now realizing this, but there is a ton of potential in this area. The Greater Grads program by OKC Chamber is a step in the right direction. Something that the colleges have helped here (and I was really surprised how big this was in OKC) but this place has a lot of entrepreneurial spirit. I think its because OKC lacks the old money of Tulsa or the corporate money of Dallas, and I get the general feeling that leaders here realize that Microsoft or Exxon are not going to relocate here (or anywhere else) anytime soon, so we will have to grow our own companies. I mean, think about it. Devon, Chesapeake, Loves, Express Personnel, Hobby Lobby. Most of OKC's most successful companies were started here and more importantly have stayed here. That kind of spirit and attitude is a HUGE asset to this community. Talking to my GF who comes from an old Midtown Tulsa $$ family, I get the feeling Tulsa and its old guard are stifling anything and everything new out of the town. That will kill a town, much faster than a bunch of turnpikes or a dried up river.

I've noticed while being at OU that the majority of in state residents who decide to stay in the state, whether they're from OKC, Tulsa, Lawton, Weatherford, etc. are settling in OKC or metro area. Of course I'm not saying anything that everyone on here probably knows. In fact, the OKC vs. Tulsa debate is irrelevant b/c OKC is not competing with the Tulsas and Little Rocks of the world but rather the KC's and Fort Worths. OKC needs to keep stepping its game up if it to keep doing so in the future.

Oh, and about the government pay, as an Air Force brat I can say that you won't find many millionaires near AFBs but big depots like Tinker generally pay alot better. I mean, you have your crappy paid airmen but you also have a lot of engineers and well paying blue collar jobs as well. Also big centers like Tinker and the FAA Center give out oodles of contracts, many to small businesses. Probably not as great a situation for the poor folks at 23rd and Lincoln, but Tinker is a huge asset to a community that can be leveraged to draw some big $$ to OKC.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

BomberMWC,
I agree that having Tinker AFB and the state government in OKC insulates OKC a little bit from the shocks of the energy industry. But government does not pay nearly as high a salary as most of the most thriving private-sector opportunities. And it really shouldn't - that would require higher taxes which would stunt the growth of the whole rest of the economy. If you are looking for a reason why OKC has a lower average income than most other cities, even other cities in this part of the country, that is a prime reason. Working in government or at Tinker are very noble pursuits, but relying on those sectors isn't going to bring increased prosperity by itself. Now ancillary industries like Boeing are a fantastic side-effect of Tinker, and should be encouraged at all levels, but I would be wary of resting on the twin laurels of energy and government. Look what happened in the 1980s. The best thing OKC can do is to use its current relative wealth and optimism to diversify like crazy.

Uh...I work at Tinker, and I make well above the average household income for the state. And while I think that it's a bit sad that the government cheese is sharper than that of the private sector, I'll certainly roll with it until the private side catches up. It's gouda 'nuff for me.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Here's why we're rooting for downtown Tulsa

NewsOK: Here's why we're rooting for downtown Tulsa

By Steve Lackmeyer
Main Street

Visit downtown Tulsa these days and you'll see for yourself a virtual construction zone. Streets are ripped up, sidewalks torn apart, and detour signs are just the outward signs of a city in transition.

Residents of the state's largest city bristle at comparisons to the transformation of downtown Oklahoma City. It's odd to be the outsider in Tulsa — visiting with ordinary folks, one gets the impression the two cities are in some sort of fierce rivalry where only one can emerge victorious.

Yet while traveling a few weeks back with a handful of some of Oklahoma City's most powerful corporate leaders, I heard nothing but concern for Tulsa.

The October flight coincided with two much-anticipated votes in both cities — a school bond election for Oklahoma City Public Schools and a sales tax to further development along Tulsa's Arkansas River corridor.
This may surprise Tulsans, but the Oklahoma City delegation was rooting for both issues to pass.

Their anxiety over the school bond election was easy to understand. After witnessing Oklahoma City's resurgence the past decade, they believe one of the biggest hurdles remaining is the city's schools.

But they were just as eager to see a win up in Tulsa. They cared because despite perceptions in their sister city, the state needs both cities to be economic powerhouses if it's to overcome historical disadvantages. And, yes, they were disappointed to hear the Tulsa tax had been voted down — even as the Oklahoma City school bond issue was winning by an almost historic margin of victory.

Tulsa isn't down for the count. The city's new arena is truly a masterpiece that Oklahoma City residents can only admire.

And the pain being encountered by businesses, downtown workers and visitors isn't without precedent. It was a decade ago that similar logistical nightmares were to be found throughout downtown Oklahoma City.

But the big success stories seem to be eluding downtown Tulsa; a development deal for a Wal-Mart fell through.

And there appears to be no sign that the once-ambitious plans heralded by Henry Kaufman and Maurice Kanbar for one-third of downtown Tulsa they bought two years ago will be fulfilled now that the two men have ended up in a court fight in San Francisco.

Some may also worry about recent reports that the operator of Tulsa's historic Brady Theater has discontinued its promotions and that, for now, the landmark no longer will be hosting performances as it has for decades. The Brady is more than just a downtown Tulsa institution. It is also the anchor for the city's fledgling entertainment district.

It's interesting that Oklahoma City, with a downtown area that has so little going for it, has come so far in the past decade. Consider all that downtown Tulsa has — not just the Brady, but also Cain's Ballroom; the incredible Art Deco downtown skyline; and a river that never needed to be mowed three times a year.

What's evident in Tulsa is that there is no unified vision for its downtown. I'm not sure that the impulse to look at Oklahoma City as a foe needing to be vanquished will revitalize Tulsa's inner-core.

But with time, and with vision and leadership, downtown Tulsa will thrive again. And I know many Oklahoma City folks who will be cheering for that resurgence with every bit of enthusiasm as they have for their own hometown.