LifeChurchTV

[metro]

OkieBear, you seem to truly care about what Life is truly about just like myself. My guess is that it will be a merger or remodel of an existing building in West OKC. Before they built South OKC, they seriously looked at West OKC. Craig announced so far the only new construction planned this year is the new Stillwater location, therefore my conclusion that it would have to be a merger or remodel of existing building. Life is on the far extreme sides of the city far far North OKC and in South OKC. They need something more centrally located. As you know Life is also heavily missions oriented, they even ask that if you join as a member that you go on at least one missions trip a year or if your physically unable to to help fund one if you can. They are also the only church I know that says if your an adult in need of food, clothing or shelter to take out of the offering. I don't think they preach or make you feel guilty if you don't tithe, or give offerings as much as most traditional churches do, but that's just my experience. It's truly reaching out to a new generation in a modern world. Just like in business, you can't do business the way you did it two years ago because of global competition, etc. The same goes with church, you can't do church the way you've always done it. Acts 2:47 says, “…And the LORD added to the church daily..” Jesus is the Foundation, the Owner and the Builder of the church of called-out believers.

In conclusion, I respect whatever stance one wants to take on Life or church in general. It is not my job to judge or condemn anyone, but merely love them unconditionally. I invite all to worship freely at LC dispite disagreements at times.

[Midtowner]

Actually Okie, I have no 'insight.' Is any really needed when I can see with my own eyes what is going on? A lot of kids giving 10% of everyhting they make to a rock 'n roll jeebus display complete with laser lights and fireworks.

I'd love for LC to make a general accounting available to its membership... do they? The churches I've attended (Catholic ones) have published such information in the Parish bulletin.

[Patrick]

A lot of kids giving 10% of everyhting they make to a rock 'n roll
jeebus display complete with laser lights and fireworks.

I don't see how that's any different than spending 10% on expensive statues of Mary and the saints, expensive pipe organs, stained glass windows (aren't cheap), intricate architecture (yup, most catholic churches are pretty inside), marble altars, solid silver communion equipment, pastoral robes for every occasion, robes for all the nuns, etc. etc.

[Midtowner]

Patrick -- how many Catholic churches have you been inside? Most of the furnishings (except for in very wealthy parishes) are pretty old. Most do not have the things you're talking about unless the intricate architecture, etc. was something that was 'in style' when the building was erected.

I attended St. John's in Edmond as well as St. Monica's -- both had stained glass as you say, but in both cases, the windows were purchased or removed from other churches that were being demolished or sold.

As for vestments, if you've seen them, most are pretty darned old. In many cases, the priests share vestments.

The most intricate architecture that I know of in an Oklahoma Catholic Church can be found over at St. Joseph's (downtown). As you might know, after the '95 bombing, donations specifically earmarked for the rehabilitation of that building rolled in from all over the country. For the most part, the restoration simply made the building as it originally was -- a nice structure, but hardly build of marble and gold leaf.

[OkieBear]

The most intricate architecture that I know of in an Oklahoma Catholic Church can be found over at St. Joseph's (downtown). As you might know, after the '95 bombing, donations specifically earmarked for the rehabilitation of that building rolled in from all over the country.

How is that different from LC where people give offerings, above and beyond their tithes, for new campus development. This is not money that is being taken from other ministries. It is given voluntarily by people like me who support the vision of LC to reach as many people across the country and across the world as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. At one time, the Catholic church had to change. You said yourself that some of them are rowdier (can't remember the exact term you used) than others. Do you propose all Catholic churches go back to nothing but Latin, and Gregorian chants? LC is changing with the times, using modern technologies and methods, while still telling the same simple message of Jesus love.

[Keith]

How is that different from LC where people give offerings, above and beyond their tithes, for new campus development. This is not money that is being taken from other ministries. It is given voluntarily by people like me who support the vision of LC to reach as many people across the country and across the world as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. At one time, the Catholic church had to change. You said yourself that some of them are rowdier (can't remember the exact term you used) than others. Do you propose all Catholic churches go back to nothing but Latin, and Gregorian chants? LC is changing with the times, using modern technologies and methods, while still telling the same simple message of Jesus love.

Exactly. I could not have said it better myself, OkieBear.

"This is not money that is being taken from other ministries. It is given voluntarily by people like me who support the vision of LC to reach as many people across the country and across the world as possible with the gospel of Jesus Christ."

That's the key word...voluntarily. I don't give because I have to, I do it because I want to help spread the simple message of Jesus Christ.

I was in today to get my taxes done, and am fortunate enough to be able to claim my tithes and offerings to my church as a deduction. Some have asked me if I would still give, if I was unable to use it as a deduction on my taxes. Yes, I would. It has nothing to do with taxes, it has to do with giving to further the Kingdom of God.

[Midtowner]

The big recent change in the Catholic Church came in the 60's during Vatican II. It was at that time that the rules were changed so that the mass could be said in the vernacular language instead of Latin. As far as the "Latin and Gregorian Chants," first off, Gregorian chant is in Latin. Second off, it was never just those things. Those are just famous forms of music pioneered by the Church. Gregorian Chant is still popular today, and many (most) Catholic churches (and many others) still use parts of the Latin mass, Latin chants, etc.

As far as "changing with the times," the change you're talking about is superficial. The Catholic churhc changed from Latin to the vernacular so that people would understand what was being said in the mass. Lasers and smoke and videos do not help with comprehension, they're just ploys to get your attention. Someone that is serious about their religion should not rely on such crutches to hold their attention -- don't you think that the subject is interesting enough on its own?

[Jack]

St. James just got through going through a very expensive renovation. Place looks fancy inside. Marble floors, marble reflecting pool with holy water, brand new stain glass windows. Is all that really necessary?

[Midtowner]

Not at all Jack..

Of course, there is something to be said for beautiful architecture.

On the other hand, are you going to even try to question the Catholic Church's record on charity?

[OkieBear]

The big recent change in the Catholic Church came in the 60's during Vatican II. It was at that time that the rules were changed so that the mass could be said in the vernacular language instead of Latin. As far as the "Latin and Gregorian Chants," first off, Gregorian chant is in Latin. Second off, it was never just those things. Those are just famous forms of music pioneered by the Church. Gregorian Chant is still popular today, and many (most) Catholic churches (and many others) still use parts of the Latin mass, Latin chants, etc.

As far as "changing with the times," the change you're talking about is superficial. The Catholic churhc changed from Latin to the vernacular so that people would understand what was being said in the mass. Lasers and smoke and videos do not help with comprehension, they're just ploys to get your attention. Someone that is serious about their religion should not rely on such crutches to hold their attention -- don't you think that the subject is interesting enough on its own?

If new ways of doing things are bad, then why did the Catholic church need to pioneer new music? Wasn't the old music good enough to keep people's attention? You even admit that they are still used because they are still popular. The Catholic church changed from Latin to the vernacular to better fit into the culture in which is it located. Hispanic churches play hispanic music because that is the culture of the people who attend there to worship God. LC is filling a niche to draw in the MTV/video generations who have been turned off by traditional churches. As I've said previously, the message is the same. The method of delivery has changed to reflect the times. If you can show me where LC has watered down the message, I might agree with you. But the fact is, LC is probably more in your face than most churches out there. The coffee bar and music make you feel comfortable, then Craig hits you between the eyes with the truth of the gospel of Christ.

[Midtowner]

Before the Catholic Church pioneered music, there really wasn't music. Okie, have a bit of historical perspective. In the middle ages when such things developed, there was no real popular secular culture -- the religious culture was the only culture. Therefore, all painted art, all music, all sculpture and architecture (with the exceptions of portrait work done for important heads of state) was done soley for the church.

In more recent times, in the 60's, people did not understand Latin, and they lacked the historical/educational perspective to comprehend this. The Church under Pope John XXIII decided that tradition for the sake of tradition was a foolish path and we had Vatican II.

Don't sell your generation short (that's what you're doing by saying that lasers and smoke are all they can connect to). This generation is every bit as smart and every bit as educated as any that preceded it. Using special effects and video is a far cry from switching to a language that the church-goers actually understand (I believe that is the argument that you're attempting to make).

A serious devotee should consider their religion to be a serious endeavor that requires devotion, contemplation, and study. The Steven Covey meets TBN approach that mixes secular principles with the interest of self-expansion of the church with a dab of Biblical quotation here and there hardly approaches that.

[osupa05]

As far as "changing with the times," the change you're talking about is superficial.

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

[OkieBear]

A serious devotee should consider their religion to be a serious endeavor that requires devotion, contemplation, and study.

That may be true, Mid. But Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:31-32 TNIV

LC is there to bring new people to Christ. If "serious devotees" want to worship in a traditional church, that's great. But those who are not yet believers (the sick) may need something to grab their attention and get them in the doors so they can meet the Great Physician.

[writerranger]

Just curious.....when Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, was that not somewhat telling the church to be a bit careful about church gift shops, coffee bars, t-shirt sales, etc.?

[Jack]

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

Actually, LC is designed to be superficial and watered down. Craig doesn't get in depth in his messages. I've never heard an indepth one. They're all pretty basic. But, that's the whole niche LC is trying to fill: new Christians.

[Jack]

Just curious.....when Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, was that not somewhat telling the church to be a bit careful about church gift shops, coffee bars, t-shirt sales, etc.?

No, Jesus was referring to folks that were doing things other than church-related stuff. They were selling stuff that was completely outside the realm of the church.

[OkieBear]

Just curious.....when Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, was that not somewhat telling the church to be a bit careful about church gift shops, coffee bars, t-shirt sales, etc.?

... and bingo and raffles and bake sales? It's a valid question, ranger. But I think the problem with the money changers in the temple was that they were cheating people when they sold them animals they needed for sacrifice. If LC was charging people outrageous prices for items that they needed to worship then you might have a valid point. But they are selling things that people voluntarily purchase, and based on the prices I've seen, LC is making little if any money on each item. And again, these are voluntary purchases rather than things needed for worship.

[Jack]

Also, those folks were practicing these things in the middle of the temple where worship was supposed to go on. Most of these bake sells aren't held in the middle of the church sanctuary.

Also, they're honest, and most of the proceeds often go to fund things in the church, like charity work.

Jesus was referring to people that were dealing money in the sanctuary of the church, when they should've been worshipping.

[Randy]

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

Funny, osupa05. You really think MidTowner has any interest in LC? No way. He just wants to find someone to debate with. It will be a cold day in Hades before he even attempts to go to LC. He would rather go to a dull church and stay in the usual dull routine.

[osupa05]

Actually, LC is designed to be superficial and watered down. Craig doesn't get in depth in his messages. I've never heard an indepth one. They're all pretty basic. But, that's the whole niche LC is trying to fill: new Christians.

Basic is a far cry from watered down... unless I'm the only "old" christian who has lots of stuff to work on in my life! I rarely walk away from an experience without having had my toes stepped on, so to speak.... He preaches God's word in a way that someone who's never heard the message can understand it and someone who's heard it million times hears it again like it's the first time! There are many things that Craig has preached on that I've heard a dozen times, but the way it's presented... basic and simple still hits me like a ton of bricks at times! Maybe it's just me, but after His hearing his messages, I want to change to be more like Christ. I want to chase after God and find out what He's all about. I want to live everyday in His mercy and grace, so filled with His light that when people look at me, He's all they see! And, I love going back every week, because I know that God's moving in a mighty way, and I want to be a part of bringing God's love to the world!

[osupa05]

Funny, osupa05. You really think MidTowner has any interest in LC? No way. He just wants to find someone to debate with. It will be a cold day in Hades before he even attempts to go to LC. He would rather go to a dull church and stay in the usual dull routine.

Easy, man! Maybe he's never been invited! I'd love to see him go, because I don't think it's in issue of dull vs. non-dull.... I'd love for him to go and see what God's doing in the lives of people there... as he does in many churches every week and something that's lacking in many others that have become complacent.

[OkieBear]

osupa05 is right. I think if Mid went a couple of times, with an open mind, his opinion would change. He could see what God is doing in people's lives every experience, every week. I'd love for him to go try it out. Then if he doesn't like it, at least he would be speaking from experience rather than just from what he has heard.

[Midtowner]

There's nothing superficial about a God who calls to deepest part of your being, who calls you to chase after Him with every ounce of your mind, heart, body and soul!

Mid, just out of curiousity, have you ever been to LC? You and furture Ms. Mid should come sometime! If you still believe after attending that the message of Christ is watered down and superficial, then hold to your stance.... pm me if you should decide to try it out, and I can get you the times, or even meet you and future Ms. Mid there, if you want!

Never been to LC, but my brother and his wife go every single Sunday and have been for quite some time. They come to the East campus all the way from Norman.

I have a litany of reasons as to why I won't attend LC. Off the top of my head, here are a few: 1) I have serious dogmatic differences, I'm a Catholic and I believe what necessarily must be believed in order to be a Catholic. Those beliefs such as 'salvation through works and faith,' the Eucharist, etc. would make worship at a place that doesn't hold those beliefs tantamount to going to a Bah'ai, Unitarian, Jewish or Muslim church. 2) I've already stated that the absurd presentation runs counter to what I think the church should be all about. It's great that people enjoy it, but it seems it's more of a self help/social event/hootinany get-together than a service where anyone's worshiping anything. 3) I work full time and go to law school part time. Religious experimentation is not something I have for.

[Randy]

Never been to LC, but my brother and his wife go every single Sunday and have been for quite some time. They come to the East campus all the way from Norman.

I have a litany of reasons as to why I won't attend LC. Off the top of my head, here are a few: 1) I have serious dogmatic differences, I'm a Catholic and I believe what necessarily must be believed in order to be a Catholic. Those beliefs such as 'salvation through works and faith,' the Eucharist, etc. would make worship at a place that doesn't hold those beliefs tantamount to going to a Bah'ai, Unitarian, Jewish or Muslim church. 2) I've already stated that the absurd presentation runs counter to what I think the church should be all about. It's great that people enjoy it, but it seems it's more of a self help/social event/hootinany get-together than a service where anyone's worshiping anything. 3) I work full time and go to law school part time. Religious experimentation is not something I have for.

I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

[Midtowner]

I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

Excuses, reasons.. tomato, tomatow. Honestly, Randy, you know nothing about me. Try showing a little respect and maturity. Your little personal attacks/comments are tiresome. I'm embarassed for you.