Guardian: Oklahoma isn't working.

[Ross MacLochness]

28.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

[TheTravellers]

FFS, really?

Oklahoma officials request hypothetical budget cut results

"Oklahoma lawmakers have sent letters to state agencies requesting they give hypothetical results for a more than 3 percent budget cut."

Found that here:

http://okpolicy.org/know-oklahoma-of...t-cut-results/

Other great news in that post includes this:

"Oklahomans with mental health disorders will get fewer hours of case management under a new rule approved Thursday by the Oklahoma Health Care Authority. Currently, SoonerCare pays for up to six hours and 15 minutes of case management services per month. The new rule will reduce that to four hours of services per year."

"Oklahoma ranks No. 1 nationally for nonmedical use of painkillers for all age groups 12 and older in the past year"

"“We’re just short of what I and several of us who have been involved in this would classify as a crisis,” said Mark Nelson, vice president of the Oklahoma City Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 123"

[mugofbeer]

Red states are increasingly suspicious of education, especially higher education.

And it shows in how those states fund their educational systems. Of course, Oklahoma is just about the worst of the worst in that regard.

I don't think it is the education itself the right has a problem with, but the too-close-to-insane politically correct happenings on so many campuses across the country. in some locations this insanity is becoming more and more institutionalized. It is nearly a daily occurrence that we hear of a group or some professor on a campus demanding things most of us would have thought completely irrational a few years ago. This isn't only happening on obscure NE Liberal Arts school or long-time left wing bastions such as UC Berkeley. It's happening at places such as the U of Missouri, the U of Iowa. Violent groups supress free speech and free thought yet the police turn their backs. Radical Professors hide behind their Tenure and cry Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression while demanding segregation of the races, self-loathing policies and violence against conservatives. Is it any wonder when state Universities promote radical left policies and openly ridicule and even visciously attack anything or anyone who promotes a conservative point of view, states where conservatives rule have a great suspision of higher education? Some of these types of things are creeping into high schools. I am not a wildly conservative person but I see examples from schools in my own state that makes me wish I could withhold my taxes from those schools. In all, I think conservatives are holding true to principles by having suspicion of any large bureaucratic institution.

[Bunty]

It's apparently a good place to live and work and raise a family while constantly coming on here and bitching and moaning about what a horrible, backwards, <gasp> conservative, unwalkable, redneck, parking garage mecca place it is to live, work and raise a family. Some day I hope everyone realizes OKC is light-years ahead of where it was 30 years ago.

I think the majority of Oklahomans are doing okay or better. But they can't relate to the minority of people who work several jobs, have poor health and can't afford treatment, or waiting on long lists for help. The majority in turn elect legislators, who are successful in life and healthy, while also unable to relate to the needs of the minority, who make Oklahoma look bad in quality of life stats. So I bet legislators give much more attention to helping their business buddies and donors who are already well off become more so. And that also includes protecting them. Perish the thought that the very successful be further penalized by raising taxes on their high incomes.

Until the majority of Oklahomans start feeling the effects of bad governing from the state capitol, I don't expect much change there, including it being likely the governor's position will remain Republican from the 2018 election. I've found that all the bitching about Oklahoma government doesn't translate into incumbent Republicans getting booted out come election day. Gov. Fallin should have been booted out in 2014. Anyway, I'll be watching the election results next year, hoping I'm wrong.

[d-usa]

I was surprised at the outcomes of our last batch of state questions, and I have very reserved cautious optimism because of them. But I'm fully prepared to be let down as well.

[Canoe]

I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church and my father is a preacher. There are indeed a lot of people who will say that a person cannot be a Christian if they don't vote Republican. Most in the denomination I grew up in believe its a sin to even vote for a pro-life Democrat since the Democratic Party supports abortion. Shortly before I stopped going to church in 2015, I was doing Christian counseling and my counselor literally told me with conviction that it's impossible for somebody to be a Christian and have voted for Obama.

What we have with Christianity is a "no true Scottsman" fallacy. Most Christians believe that those who are more right-wing doctrinally and authoritarian than them are Pharisees while those who are more liberal are apostates. You see this mindset across the entire spectrum.

Chris, I understand that you are still young and you are dealing with the zeal of the convert and a not fully formed pre-frontal cortex, so you might not be able to fully understand this post until you are older, but the way you attack Christians makes your policy goals harder to achieve. I hope for society's sake you see the error you are making over and over again online.

References:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyc...ContentID=3051

[Rover]

I don't think it is the education itself the right has a problem with, but the too-close-to-insane politically correct happenings on so many campuses across the country. in some locations this insanity is becoming more and more institutionalized. It is nearly a daily occurrence that we hear of a group or some professor on a campus demanding things most of us would have thought completely irrational a few years ago. This isn't only happening on obscure NE Liberal Arts school or long-time left wing bastions such as UC Berkeley. It's happening at places such as the U of Missouri, the U of Iowa. Violent groups supress free speech and free thought yet the police turn their backs. Radical Professors hide behind their Tenure and cry Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression while demanding segregation of the races, self-loathing policies and violence against conservatives. Is it any wonder when state Universities promote radical left policies and openly ridicule and even visciously attack anything or anyone who promotes a conservative point of view, states where conservatives rule have a great suspision of higher education? Some of these types of things are creeping into high schools. I am not a wildly conservative person but I see examples from schools in my own state that makes me wish I could withhold my taxes from those schools. In all, I think conservatives are holding true to principles by having suspicion of any large bureaucratic institution.

This self riteous bs from the right is a big part of the problem. They now view civility and anti bullying as "politically correct". It is a term they hide behind when they can't figure out why acting crude, offending people and being bigoted isn't a God given right. And who needs education and advanced culture....that's just for the unholy. The privileged starts losing their advantages and having to act like the rest and they actually believe that is discrimination.

Anti free speech? Give us a break. There have always been limits to free speech in a responsible society. Protesting against Nazis and supremacists who promote division, hatred, and the essential dissolution of a civil society is to be applauded. Giving free reign to hate groups is not the same as free speech. It's time real Christians need to do more than preach....they need to practice God's ways, not their own.

[TheTravellers]

...
Until the majority of Oklahomans start feeling the effects of bad governing from the state capitol, I don't expect much change there, including it being likely the governor's position will remain Republican from the 2018 election. ...

THIS is the problem - I can't count how many times I've heard people say "Well, it doesn't affect me, so I don't really care", which is a massively sh*tty attitude to have.

[Bunty]

Chris, I understand that you are still young and you are dealing with the zeal of the convert and a not fully formed pre-frontal cortex, so you might not be able to fully understand this post until you are older, but the way you attack Christians makes your policy goals harder to achieve. I hope for society's sake you see the error you are making over and over again online.

References:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyc...ContentID=3051

LOL, and so you send him to a page that says: "This page contains too many unsourced statements and needs to be improved.
Zeal of the convert could use some help. Please research the article's assertions. Whatever is credible should be sourced, and what is not should be removed."

While Chris gets a little monotonous in singling out the Christian Right for much of the blame on Oklahoma's problems in this modern age, I think he is generally right. Christian Right legislators, such as Ritze for starters, who originate and get passed unconstitutional bills, deserve to be attacked.

[Plutonic Panda]

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

+1! His logic makes no sense at all.

[dankrutka]

I don't think it is the education itself the right has a problem with, but the too-close-to-insane politically correct happenings on so many campuses across the country. in some locations this insanity is becoming more and more institutionalized. It is nearly a daily occurrence that we hear of a group or some professor on a campus demanding things most of us would have thought completely irrational a few years ago. This isn't only happening on obscure NE Liberal Arts school or long-time left wing bastions such as UC Berkeley. It's happening at places such as the U of Missouri, the U of Iowa. Violent groups supress free speech and free thought yet the police turn their backs. Radical Professors hide behind their Tenure and cry Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression while demanding segregation of the races, self-loathing policies and violence against conservatives. Is it any wonder when state Universities promote radical left policies and openly ridicule and even visciously attack anything or anyone who promotes a conservative point of view, states where conservatives rule have a great suspision of higher education? Some of these types of things are creeping into high schools. I am not a wildly conservative person but I see examples from schools in my own state that makes me wish I could withhold my taxes from those schools. In all, I think conservatives are holding true to principles by having suspicion of any large bureaucratic institution.

As a college professor who has worked on three different college campuses and work with professors from all over the United States, it is really frustrating to read your comments. There are online entities who have made it their goal of demonizing higher ed and professors as radicals. I was attacked by a right-wong website a couple years ago for creating a google doc where teachers could share how they could respond to Ferguson in their classrooms. That was literally all I did. They didn't want to know anything about my views, but just demonize me for encouraging educators to have conversations about difficult topics. I am sure these are the types of stories you're reading. Most stories are blown out of proportion or outright fabrications. Even for cases of true unethical misconduct, they're extremely rare. Assuming anything you claim is widespread based off a few stories is unsupported. I could make sweeping claims for any profession based off a few news stories. I work with great people and lots of people from all political backgrounds. I am available to discuss these issues further and share my perspective as someone who actually spends every day in higher ed, but otherwise, please take these comments such as these to the political section. I'd rather not be insulted. I've had several conservative friends post similar rants recently and the closed-mindedness is getting old. I would never stereotype and insult an entire profession or group like that. We can disagree, but I'd appreciate you at least being respectful. I promise I will.

[SOONER8693]

As a college professor who has worked on three different college campuses and work with professors from all over the United States, it is really frustrating to read your comments. There are online entities who have made it their goal of demonizing higher ed and professors as radicals. I was attacked by a right-wong website a couple years ago for creating a google doc where teachers could share how they could respond to Ferguson in their classrooms. That was literally all I did. They didn't want to know anything about my views, but just demonize me for encouraging educators to have conversations about difficult topics. I am sure these are the types of stories you're reading. Most stories are blown out of proportion or outright fabrications. Even for cases of true unethical misconduct, they're extremely rare. Assuming anything you claim is widespread based off a few stories is unsupported. I could make sweeping claims for any profession based off a few news stories. I work with great people and lots of people from all political backgrounds. I am available to discuss these issues further and share my perspective as someone who actually spends every day in higher ed, but otherwise, please take these comments such as these to the political section. I'd rather not be insulted. I've had several conservative friends post similar rants recently and the closed-mindedness is getting old. I would never stereotype and insult an entire profession or group like that. We can disagree, but I'd appreciate you at least being respectful. I promise I will.

I taught with Dan for several years and my youngest daughter was a student in his class at one time. I may not always agree with everything he says, but, I know of no one in the education business that is more highly respected than Dan Krutka.

[Dustin]

I hate that Oklahoma gets this kind of press constantly.

The solutions to the problems in this state are very simple, but the republicans at the capitol can't seem to figure it out. We need a change of leadership.

[dankrutka]

I taught with Dan for several years and my youngest daughter was a student in his class at one time. I may not always agree with everything he says, but, I know of no one in the education business that is more highly respected than Dan Krutka.

That's very nice to say. Your daughter was a great student too and I absolutely loved my time at Westmoore High School. I already refer to it as my "golden years" and I'm just in my 30s. Ha ha. We had teachers who were very different, but everyone cared about the school and students, particularly those teachers who helped "found" the school in 1988.

In a democracy, we don't have to agree on our politics, but we have to respect each other. I have met so many incredible teachers AND professors that I just get upset when they're stereotyped or put down. Both professions work long hours for less pay than they deserve. And this is why I'm so upset about the state of education in Oklahoma. I care deeply about it and it's sad for the state how many Oklahoma teachers I meet in North Texas.

Anyway, thanks making this positive again. I really hope Oklahoma can get its act together. There are still so many good people depending on it.

[jerrywall]

I hate that Oklahoma gets this kind of press constantly.

The solutions to the problems in this state are very simple, but the republicans at the capitol can't seem to figure it out. We need a change of leadership.

Hopefully a third solution and not just back to the folks who ran it into the ground for 70 years.

[chuck5815]

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

I'd say it's a bit loose to consider abortion to be a strictly federal question. Sure, the leading jurisprudence is the result of decisions handed down in the U.S. Supreme Court which relied heavily on constitutional analysis, but every one of those cases asked the Court to consider a particular state's attempt at regulating abortion. Planned Parenthood v. Casey is a pretty fair restatement of where the law stands today.

The plurality opinion in ​Casey stated that it was upholding what it called the "essential holding" of Roe. The essential holding consists of three parts:

(1) Women have the right to choose to have an abortion prior to viability and to do so without undue interference from the State;
(2) the State can restrict the abortion procedure post viability, so long as the law contains exceptions for pregnancies which endanger the woman’s life or health; and
(3) the State has legitimate interests from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the health of the woman and the life of the fetus that may become a child.^[6]

The plurality asserted that the fundamental right to abortion is grounded in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and the plurality reiterated what the Court had said in Eisenstadt v. Baird: "if the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child."

[Bunty]

I hate that Oklahoma gets this kind of press constantly.

The solutions to the problems in this state are very simple, but the republicans at the capitol can't seem to figure it out. We need a change of leadership.

People need to run for legislature to find new leadership. If not, you have incumbents without opposition on election day and that speaks even louder to them that they must be doing a damned good job of running state government. Also silence is consent.

[ABCOKC]

Norman, Oklahoma and Denton, Texas are very comparable cities. In Norman, a starting teacher makes $34,000 and in Denton a starting teacher makes $52,000. Add in that the facilities and resources are dramatically better and Oklahoma is starting to resemble a third world country... and it's by choice. I work in north Texas and I meet teachers who left Oklahoma all the time. The state is absolutely in a state of failure.

This is an incredibly ill-informed opinion, and one that I honestly hope is some sort of joke. Either way it is in very poor taste to compare the situation of someone in America making a reasonable wage to the plight of the billions around the world who live in abject poverty.

[ABCOKC]

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

It’s the most regressive tax of all. The poorer a family is the higher percentage of their income they pay for food. In Oklahoma the effective tax rate is the higher to the more poor you are, not lower. This is nothing short of evil.

Dave literally never said that. Also, I totally agree with the main point of your second post, but calling the other side "evil" is hyperbolic, makes you seem crazy, and is not a good way to make converts. I've only ventured into the politics forum a couple times and thus have only a passing familiarity with Swake, so someone please tell me if I'm wasting my breath.

[Bunty]

This is an incredibly ill-informed opinion, and one that I honestly hope is some sort of joke. Either way it is in very poor taste to compare the situation of someone in America making a reasonable wage to the plight of the billions around the world who live in abject poverty.

But if America is such a rich country, one of the richest in the world, Idabel, Oklahoma shouldn't look so poor and run down. I didn't know what poverty could look like in Oklahoma until I drove through that town.

[Bunty]

It’s the most regressive tax of all. The poorer a family is the higher percentage of their income they pay for food. In Oklahoma the effective tax rate is the higher to the more poor you are, not lower. This is nothing short of evil.

I would like to see Gov. Fallin's tax reform program voted upon in a SQ. Getting rid of the sales tax on food and the corporate income tax would be great. The only question about it is would making up for lost revenues by imposing a sales tax on over a 100 services be acceptable to the people?

[Jersey Boss]

Dave literally never said that. Also, I totally agree with the main point of your second post, but calling the other side "evil" is hyperbolic, makes you seem crazy, and is not a good way to make converts. I've only ventured into the politics forum a couple times and thus have only a passing familiarity with Swake, so someone please tell me if I'm wasting my breath.

Swake never said or implied any "side" is evil. If you go back and read his post, you will read that he said the regressive tax on groceries is evil.

[Jersey Boss]

Chris, I understand that you are still young and you are dealing with the zeal of the convert and a not fully formed pre-frontal cortex, so you might not be able to fully understand this post until you are older, but the way you attack Christians makes your policy goals harder to achieve. I hope for society's sake you see the error you are making over and over again online.

References:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyc...ContentID=3051

Whoa, hold the condescending attitude. Chris is not attacking Christians, he is calling out a small fringe, subset. Christians are not a homogenized group with beliefs both religious and political at odds. It is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

[bchris02]

Chris, I understand that you are still young and you are dealing with the zeal of the convert and a not fully formed pre-frontal cortex, so you might not be able to fully understand this post until you are older, but the way you attack Christians makes your policy goals harder to achieve. I hope for society's sake you see the error you are making over and over again online.

References:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zeal_of_the_convert

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyc...ContentID=3051

First, you assume way too much about me. Secondly, if certain prominent evangelical Christians want to continue to wage their culture war, they should expect some backlash. For the so-called party of "small government", some evangelicals are way too invested in controlling everyone's private lives. Most of the anti-Christian sentiment you see on the Left today is a direct result of the seemingly never-ending crusade by some evangelicals to be the nation's moral police. It all started in the 1980s with Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. Conservatives love to throw stones at "liberal snowflakes" yet its certain evangelicals that are constantly upset over the smallest things, with the "War on Christmas" being one of many examples. Third, if you think pointing out the fact that many pastors pressure their flocks to vote for certain candidates that are culture warriors (when its against their best interest economically) is attacking Christians, I don't know what to tell you.

[Video Expert]

Hopefully a third solution and not just back to the folks who ran it into the ground for 70 years.

No kidding! You beat me to it.