Dishonest Marketing by the University of Oklahoma

[Brownwood]

My own research yields the following:

University of Oklahoma total cost for in-state undergrad: $18,481.50
University of Texas total cost for in-state undergrad: $25,704 – 27,096

Also, when I mentioned that OU was just about the least expensive of all top 50 public universities, that was based on tuition AND fees.


The bottom line is that for the quality of education, OU is a great bargain, even with the recent -- and necessary -- increases.

Pete,

I'm sorry to disagree, but I must point out your error. The site you linked to includes numerous categories for cost and you focused in on the $18,481.50, however, you did not include what is "disclosed" by the *.

*This estimate includes 30 credit hours, per hour fees and per semester fees. A number of public institutions report annual cost based on minimum full-time enrollment (24 credit hours). Mandatory fees include: academic facility and life safety, special event, activity, assessment, network connectivity, student facility, library, security services, transit, health, cultural, records and academic advising fees. Note: All costs subject to change. Mandatory fees listed above do not include college or course-specific fees. There are additional college specific technology and enrichment fees in many courses

Please note: This DOES NOT include the Academic Excellence fee of $60.00 per credit hour, nor does it include the college specific fees (engineering as an example) of $46.50 per credit hour. That is an additional $106.50 per credit hour NOT INCLUDED in your calculation, or an additional $3,408 per year (32 hours). Plus the semester fees not included. Same OU website, different page explaining tuition. This makes OU total tuition and fees about $22,000 per year. Tuition & Fees

Recheck your citation for Texas, you used the total cost (including books, room and board) for the $25K to $27K. Read through the prior paragraph on your citation and you will see:

Estimated Undergraduate Flat-Rate Tuition and Fees (2013 – 14)

Texas resident $9,346 – 10,738
Non-resident $32,422 – 37,160

FACT: From your own sources, Texas is between $18,700 to $21,400 (tuition & fees) .... OU about $22,000 year (tuition and fees). Without question, Texas is less than OU (as I initially stated) and Texas is a much better school. Texas is a member of the Association of American Universities, a group of 62 nationally recognized research universities including Stanford, MIT, Colummbia, Duke, Harvard, Rice, The UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS at AUSTIN, etc. OU can only dream of ever being a part of this. Association of American Universities

Please, please, please read through your sources again, checking the total cost. The fact you are confused and making the wrong assumption proves my point of OU being misleading at best.

[Pete]

The OU link provided specifically says the $9,494.50 for one semester: "*Excludes College Technology, Program and Course Specific Fees".

It does NOT say it excludes the Academic Excellent fees or any of the other mandatory fees. So why are you adding them back in to your calculations?

Plus, why are you using 32 hours when the calculations are all based on 30 (15 per semester)?

The only thing not factored are the items quoted; looks like those average about $500 per semester.

[RadicalModerate]

Possible Elective University of Oklahoma Course Offering?:

Consideration and Positive Activation of Abraham Maslow's Pyramid of The Hierarchy of Human Needs in The AmeobicCyberMillenium.

Required Reading: Don Quixote.

Grading: Pass/Fail

[Pete]

BTW, to demonstrate how much college tuition has gone up over the last few decades...

When I was at OU in the early 80's I distinctly remember my tuition being around $500 per semester -- all in. Books were about another $100 or so.

If you use an inflation calculator, that $500 amount would be about $1,500 today. Yet, no matter how you slice it, a semester at OU is now around $10K per semester.

So, even factoring in inflation, tuition and fees are at least 8X what they were just a generation ago.

AND, OU is *still* one of the least expensive national universities around.

[zookeeper]

Well, I don't know about deceptive, but they don't make it very clear. I've been looking and it seems there should be some disclaimer about exactly what fees are, and are not, included in the "tuition and fees." They use different terminology at different places on the site which can cause confusion.

Here it is straight from the Bursar's office - Tuition & Fees and Fee Descriptions

It could probably be phrased in a more straight forward, user-friendly fashion, but it seems to me that Pete's calculations are right.

[RadicalModerate]

The only place one will ever encounter the phrase "Bursar's office" is within the Ivory Towers of Academia.
I think the term might be a hold over from Oxford or wherever. =) even in The Great State of Oklahoma.

Edited to Add: Other than OKCTalk, of course. =)

[ljbab728]

The only place one will ever encounter the phrase "Bursar's office" is within the Ivory Towers of Academia.
I think the term might be a hold over from Oxford or wherever. =) even in The Great State of Oklahoma.

Edited to Add: Other than OKCTalk, of course. =)

Actually cruise ships have a bursar (sometimes called a purser also) too but I suppose a cruise could be a learning experience.

[adaniel]

Well, I don't know about deceptive, but they don't make it very clear. I've been looking and it seems there should be some disclaimer about exactly what fees are, and are not, included in the "tuition and fees." They use different terminology at different places on the site which can cause confusion.

Here it is straight from the Bursar's office - Tuition & Fees and Fee Descriptions

It could probably be phrased in a more straight forward, user-friendly fashion, but it seems to me that Pete's calculations are right.

My parents and I sat down and figured the cost between OU and UT (full disclosure: this was nearly a decade ago but the trends do not change). At the time I was just a high schooler in TX. Not only was OU considerably cheaper that UT in state, but OU out of state was pretty much the same as UT in state.

I also take offense to suggestions that OU is somehow highly subpar to UT's. In terms of rankings, UT will always rank ahead because it is a much larger research institution. At the same time, the gap is much closer nowadays, partly because of the improvements at OU and partly because UT has slipped. There is a reason UT is trying to fire their president!

I am under no impression OU competes with UCLA or Michigan, but you can get a great education that is highly respected throughout the region. I am fortunate enough to work for one of the larger energy firms in DFW. After Texas Tech and Texas A&M, OU represents the largest alumni group in our company, even more than UT. Now that may be different from company to company. But there are several firms in Dallas and Houston that have similar makeups.

[zookeeper]

My parents and I sat down and figured the cost between OU and UT (full disclosure: this was nearly a decade ago but the trends do not change). At the time I was just a high schooler in TX. Not only was OU considerably cheaper that UT in state, but OU out of state was pretty much the same as UT in state.

I also take offense to suggestions that OU is somehow highly subpar to UT's. In terms of rankings, UT will always rank ahead because it is a much larger research institution. At the same time, the gap is much closer nowadays, partly because of the improvements at OU and partly because UT has slipped. There is a reason UT is trying to fire their president!

I am under no impression OU competes with UCLA or Michigan, but you can get a great education that is highly respected throughout the region. I am fortunate enough to work for one of the larger energy firms in DFW. After Texas Tech and Texas A&M, OU represents the largest alumni group in our company, even more than UT. Now that may be different from company to company. But there are several firms in Dallas and Houston that have similar makeups.

I think maybe you quoted the wrong person? I was agreeing with Pete.

[stick47]

The elephant in the room that everyone is overlooking is the rise in the number of college adminstrators has largely been the driving force behind tuition increases. Administrators Ate My Tuition by Benjamin Ginsberg | The Washington Monthly
Simply put, US universities are becoming bloated buracracies.

[Just the facts]

The elephant in the room that everyone is overlooking is the rise in the number of college adminstrators has largely been the driving force behind tuition increases. Administrators Ate My Tuition by Benjamin Ginsberg | The Washington Monthly
Simply put, US universities are becoming bloated buracracies.

They expanded to absorb all the education funding dollars available. That is why increasing education funding never works. They just find something else to spend the money on so no matter how much they get, they are always just a little short. The only way to find what is truly important is to see what they threaten to cut when they want more funding. The intramural sports teams are never on the chopping block.

[Rover]

The only place one will ever encounter the phrase "Bursar's office" is within the Ivory Towers of Academia.
I think the term might be a hold over from Oxford or wherever. =) even in The Great State of Oklahoma.

Edited to Add: Other than OKCTalk, of course. =)

A bursar (derived from "bursa", Latin for purse) is a senior professional financial administrator in a school or university. In the United States, bursars usually exist only at the level of higher education.

[ctchandler]

FighttheGoodFight,
After leaving the Navy, I planned to go to college. I was 24 years old. Since then I have had seven jobs, three of them at Hertz and I only applied for one job in my life and I didn't get it, although, they didn't call me back soon enough and I ended up at Hertz. When they did call, I was quite happy and turned them down. Every job I have had was from an unsolicited call because of my contacts throughout the IT community.
C. T.

A lot of jobs are who you know and who is on the reference sheet.

[adaniel]

I think maybe you quoted the wrong person? I was agreeing with Pete.

Yes, I was trying to piggyback on your point. Probably should have just quoted the last part of your post...sorry for the confusion!

[LandRunOkie]

So to summarize the main points from this thread, for people thinking of enrolling at OU:

• Tuition and fees have increased by at least 8X in the last 30 years. Adjusted for inflation, that's an increase of over 3X.
• The OU Financial Aid office takes approximately 10% of all student loans to keep for themselves. This happens without any direct notice to the students. I'm not aware of any other school that does this.
• Over 40% of students who take out student loans at OU do not, or are not able to, remain in a state of loan repayment. In other words they don't make the agreed upon payments. For reference, at the University of Texas, this figure is less than 30%. At Ivy League schools, it is less than 20%. I can provide the spreadsheet for those interested.
• OU misrepresents the price of tuition by shifting much of the costs of attendance to fees, which are harder to keep track of.
• OU is in the process of a $300 million dollar stadium expansion for football fans in the wake of a 5% tuition increase for students.

To me these facts reveal a mendacious and parasitic institution that seeks to prey on students rather than help them achieve the ultimate goals of graduation and personal success, whether in the academic world or in industry. At the very least, one would have to agree that the bureaucracy at OU needs to be exposed and officials held accountable.

[Pete]

To me these facts reveal a mendacious and parasitic institution that seeks to prey on students rather than help them achieve the ultimate goals of graduation and personal success, whether in the academic world or in industry. At the very least, one would have to agree that the bureaucracy at OU needs to be exposed and officials held accountable.

I think what we've learned here is that no matter how you slice it, OU is one of the most affordable colleges anywhere and that considering it's relatively high ranking among public universities, offers those lucky enough to gain admission an outstanding educational value.

[KenRagsdale]

So to summarize the main points from this thread, for people thinking of enrolling at OU:

• Tuition and fees have increased by at least 8X in the last 30 years. Adjusted for inflation, that's an increase of over 3X.
• The OU Financial Aid office takes approximately 10% of all student loans to keep for themselves. This happens without any direct notice to the students. I'm not aware of any other school that does this.
• Over 40% of students who take out student loans at OU do not, or are not able to, remain in a state of loan repayment. In other words they don't make the agreed upon payments. For reference, at the University of Texas, this figure is less than 30%. At Ivy League schools, it is less than 20%. I can provide the spreadsheet for those interested.
• OU misrepresents the price of tuition by shifting much of the costs of attendance to fees, which are harder to keep track of.
• OU is in the process of a $300 million dollar stadium expansion for football fans in the wake of a 5% tuition increase for students.

To me these facts reveal a mendacious and parasitic institution that seeks to prey on students rather than help them achieve the ultimate goals of graduation and personal success, whether in the academic world or in industry. At the very least, one would have to agree that the bureaucracy at OU needs to be exposed and officials held accountable.

Held accountable for what? Moving heaven-and-earth to not only maintain, but enhance the state's academic flagship. The University of Oklahoma is a far better university than when I attended (Oklahoma, '73). The State of Oklahoma provided thirty percent (30%) of the university's budget during my undergraduate years. The state now provide's fifteen percent (15%) of OU's funding. President Boren is pulling it all together with "fumes" and prayers, in my opinion.
That you may know: OU was the second choice for both my children. They both earned undergraduate Bachelor's degrees at separate private institutions. OU was not the right "fit" for either of them. They do, however, hold The University of Oklahoma in high regard, and close to their hearts.
Compared to The University of Oklahoma, private colleges and universities are a financial load, I can assure you.

[Rover]

I think what we've learned here is that no matter how you slice it, OU is one of the most affordable colleges anywhere and that considering it's relatively high ranking among public universities, offers those lucky enough to gain admission an outstanding educational value.

And we've learned, no matter how many facts and how much logic, haters are going to hate. Obviously some just hate OU or hate the idea that you have to pay for higher education at all. If you don't value quality education than any amount is too much.

[Pete]

Oklahoma ranked as #2 state for recent college grads:

The Best And Worst States for Recent Grads Since the Recession - Forbes

[LandRunOkie]

Nothing in the above article discredits the five bullet points I condensed from this thread. In fact information from former students at a university is far more credible than something by a web journalist who has likely never even been to Norman. And as I've pointed out, a great many prospective college students are choosing to opt out altogether and begin their productive careers without the loan debt associated with university. So the comparison of OU's value relative to other schools is misguided at best; if an in-state student can't afford OU they certainly aren't going out of state. Independent-minded students can go to trucking school to join the middle class and those with medically-oriented personalities can get an associates in nursing to join the middle class in 2 years and with no debt. The high cost of all colleges now is ensuring they select for the more gullible and subservient of high school graduates rather than the independent, rational, assertive thinkers. The era of universities being the doorway to the middle class has closed, in my opinion.

To Jeep: Your confusion lies in the distinction between loan default and non-loan repayment. Many students enter deferment or loan forgiveness programs. Default rates represent the worst case scenario, and many students avoid it without repaying their loans.

[Jeepnokc]

Nothing in the above article discredits the five bullet points I condensed from this thread. In fact information from former students at a university is far more credible than something by a web journalist who has likely never even been to Norman.

I am interested in where your information is coming from. Please credit your sources. All I could find for default rates online is a couple of years old but is showing 6.7% in 2009 and much less than that the previous years. University of Oklahoma Student Loan Rates | School Control, Default, Repay Number. Where does the 40% alleged come from? Also, I have never heard of OU taking 10% off the top and it didn't occur when I was there so what is the documentation for that? Tuition has increased at almost every school and the football program generates far more income than it spends. If they can fill the seats...build more as they will pay for themselves.

[betts]

Nm.

[zookeeper]

Nm.

I know, betts. What are we talking about? I think it's clear that college is a big business today and not just public universities educating our people for the sake of education. But there's no evidence, that I've seen, that OU doesn't offer a perfectly fine education at a reasonably priced tuition (considering) - and especially in contrast and comparison with other public universities. Everything else is 'he said' and 'she said' that could go on forever.

[LandRunOkie]

Ok my explanation to Jeep was only partially correct. Repayment % is calculated based on whether the student has reduced the principal in a given year. Default is based on extended failure to make minimum payments. So repayment data is more predictive of an institution's graduates' financial health. Two other points. Loans in deferment are not factored into repayment data at all. And consolidated loans are seen as favorable in default rate calculation but evaluated based on principal reduction according to the repayment calculation. So repayment and default are very different. Institutions only release their default rates to the public as a way of window dressing the debt of their students and misrepresenting the value of their degrees.

[LandRunOkie]