So much for the Earth and the universe is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old

[Garin]

Maybe it was better suited in the beginning when foods weren't cleaned and prepared like they are today. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you.

[kevinpate]

And then it spends the latter portion of its life getting infected and trying to kill you...

Payback's an appendix.

[Chadanth]

Maybe it was better suited in the beginning when foods weren't cleaned and prepared like they are today. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you.

You're not a physicist or biologist either but you're quick to dismiss their findings and research.

[Uncle Slayton]

And in your theory did man come first or woman?

Well, if you're a considerate lover...oh wait. Another thread.

If we're talking about God as grand designer, he's a poor one, (the waste treatment plant(s) near the fun-ride amusement park analogy has already been made), but consider our sleep cycle. Any engineer who would design a machine that is 'down' 1/3 of the time would be shown the door, and rightfully so. What sort of whimsical god would design something like that? First, he made us virtually immortal, then we pissed him off and he cut our lifespans, then we only lived to the 900s or so, then I guess we pissed him off again and he cut us to threescore and ten?

And if he knew everything would play out the way it has, why even make it in the first place? Just do the whole damn thing in his head. Or maybe it is...we're a persistent daydream of an idle god...

[kelroy55]

Funny how people that deny science enjoy it's results in almost everything in their lives.

[kevinpate]

Wouldn't it sorta suck to learn God is just Walter Mitty in a coma, or we're all really just living in someone's locker?

Oh-o J, can you see?

[Garin]

Well, if you're a considerate lover...oh wait. Another thread.

If we're talking about God as grand designer, he's a poor one, (the waste treatment plant(s) near the fun-ride amusement park analogy has already been made), but consider our sleep cycle. Any engineer who would design a machine that is 'down' 1/3 of the time would be shown the door, and rightfully so. What sort of whimsical god would design something like that? First, he made us virtually immortal, then we pissed him off and he cut our lifespans, then we only lived to the 900s or so, then I guess we pissed him off again and he cut us to threescore and ten?

And if he knew everything would play out the way it has, why even make it in the first place? Just do the whole damn thing in his head. Or maybe it is...we're a persistent daydream of an idle god...

Would you rather piss or crap out of your forehead instead? Lol ever here of gravity I hope you didn't pay for an education.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Would you rather piss or crap out of your forehead instead? Lol ever here of gravity I hope you didn't pay for an education.

If that's how we all had been evacuating for a hundred thousand years, it wouldn't be strange. But it would still be bad design.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

And talking smack about somebody's education while confusing here and hear...I LOVE IRONY.

[Chadanth]

And talking smack about somebody's education while confusing here and hear...I LOVE IRONY.

Syntax, grammar, spelling and sentence structure aren't his strong points, but I usually choose to ignore it. Critiquing someone's command of the English language is just a few steps shy of invoking a comparison to nazis.

[Garin]

Not an English major but never claimed to be and proof reading isn't a strong suit either.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Not an English major but never claimed to be and proof reading isn't a strong suit either.

Perhaps then, you should read your bible for guidance. May I suggest John 8:7 as a good starting point.

[Dubya61]

What evidence is that a god exists?

DubyaNotes Philosophy (even Cliff would think this is too abbreviated).
I am able to prove God's existence (to my satisfaction) through philosophy.
The first question to answer, I think, is, "Do I exist?" Descartes answers this with, "I think, therefore I am."
The next question to address is, "Do you exist?" That's a flawed question, though, as the answer is almost unimportant. If I think you exist, then you do, in my mind. There are a couple of philosophical schools that take this question in different directions, but the end result is the same. Either you exist in reality or in my personal reality. Finally, if you don't exist (if I'm the be-all-end-all), why am I not the supreme being in my universe? I'm not, so there must be fellow participants in this universe.
The next question is, "How did we get here?" There are considerable schools that claim to have this answer, but my conclusion is that it's a very complex set of events that have us here, orbiting the sun at just the right distance to sustain life, with the necessary building blocks, etc. for our existence. I belive it is highly unlikely that it pure coincidence or happenstance. I belive that there must be a creator.
Further philosophical theories to nail down will take you down the road to believe that there does exist a creator that is god-like.
Again, there are many creator options but the one thing that sets Christianity aside from the rest is that Christianity has a living god.
You can prove this. Concurrent Roman historians document Jesus Christ's existence and his death. Further, there is the evidence of the empty tomb, which was guarded over by Roman Centurions. All the witnesses to his resurrection (ranging from locals to officials, from sympathetic followers to opponent institutions) had NOTHING to benefit from their statements that they saw an empty tomb and a living Jesus.
In my opinion, this corroborates the basic foundation of Christianity. Where it goes from here is much more open to debate, and one I do not desire to engage any further.
My bottom line: I believe that you can prove the existance of a creator philosophically. I believe you can prove the Jesus myth to be true through historical record.

[Dubya61]

The Jesus myth is a hard one. Lots of documentation. But at the same time, we had people believing in other crazy gods and explaining phenomenon as acts of their deities. I'm not quick to believe the hysteria that was sweeping the region. The irony is that this god you speak of has chosen, in modern, scientific times, to cease showing himself in any verifiable way. That is immensely challenging and demands an alibi to be created to explain it.

If the fact that a bad case of the stupids existed because most misunderstood Jesus' mission or intention means that the rest of the people who could corroborate the Jesus myth (fact, in my book, but hey, I'm not really here to argue with a mean spirit, as I suspect you are not, as well -- OY, the double negatives, please forgive my syntax!!!) were wrong, then you must think that ALL of the people in DC are right up there with Cletus, the voice box of any Tea Party faction. The presence of stupidity or hysteria doesn't mean that all of society is stupid or hysterical.

Also, no, the complexity of life and one's inability to fathom said complexity, isn't grounds for fabricating a deity. It just isn't. We can't see 99% of the spectrum of light. Are we to believe that our understanding and our ability to sense the universe around us is the limit to anyone or anything's ability? You see complexity without purpose and I see complexity with awe but am not compelled to credit anyone. I see too many examples (and we are finding more every day) of exoplanets that could support life. Our distance to the sun isn't precisely special. Earth could swap orbits with Mars and we could still support life.

I understand your statement, but what would you credit? Is it really possible that all this exists just by coincidence? The answer, of course, is yes. It's possible, but the preponderance of the evidence (in my opinion) points to a creator.

[onthestrip]

DubyaNotes Philosophy (even Cliff would think this is too abbreviated).
I am able to prove God's existence (to my satisfaction) through philosophy.
The first question to answer, I think, is, "Do I exist?" Descartes answers this with, "I think, therefore I am."
The next question to address is, "Do you exist?" That's a flawed question, though, as the answer is almost unimportant. If I think you exist, then you do, in my mind. There are a couple of philosophical schools that take this question in different directions, but the end result is the same. Either you exist in reality or in my personal reality. Finally, if you don't exist (if I'm the be-all-end-all), why am I not the supreme being in my universe? I'm not, so there must be fellow participants in this universe.
The next question is, "How did we get here?" There are considerable schools that claim to have this answer, but my conclusion is that it's a very complex set of events that have us here, orbiting the sun at just the right distance to sustain life, with the necessary building blocks, etc. for our existence. I belive it is highly unlikely that it pure coincidence or happenstance. I belive that there must be a creator.
Further philosophical theories to nail down will take you down the road to believe that there does exist a creator that is god-like.
Again, there are many creator options but the one thing that sets Christianity aside from the rest is that Christianity has a living god.
You can prove this. Concurrent Roman historians document Jesus Christ's existence and his death. Further, there is the evidence of the empty tomb, which was guarded over by Roman Centurions. All the witnesses to his resurrection (ranging from locals to officials, from sympathetic followers to opponent institutions) had NOTHING to benefit from their statements that they saw an empty tomb and a living Jesus.
In my opinion, this corroborates the basic foundation of Christianity. Where it goes from here is much more open to debate, and one I do not desire to engage any further.
My bottom line: I believe that you can prove the existance of a creator philosophically. I believe you can prove the Jesus myth to be true through historical record.

I guess it could be coincidence but when you have essentially infinite possibilities (billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and planets) it becomes more about probable odds than just a coincidence. I like your effort of explaining it from a philosophical perspective but I still dont give much weight to the "well earth is so perfect that is had to be made by God" argument. Even more so when you consider that every day we are discovering many new earth like planets orbiting in the goldilocks zone. Outer space is quite large yall. We cant the only special planet out there.

[zookeeper]

I get that. I just don't jump to the conclusion that because I don't understand the how, I must insert a deity. One which doesn't 'show himself'.

I agree with you, Sid. When somebody tells me to "look around" and ask myself how there could NOT be a God. I always ask them to look around and ask themselves who could have possibly created a God that created all of this. Then, of course, who created something that could create a God that created all of this...ad infinitum.

[OKCisOK4me]

Sid, you are just ON POINT. I can't be contrary to anything you're saying and I agree 100%.

I read this book once that basically claimed God was a scientist, which makes perfect sense in a world that can't prove what he actually was/is beyond pure belief so if you take that into account, it purely makes sense why God chose to create the universe. I can't believe that the universe exists for no reason whatsoever and honestly, your god (Dubya and every other Christian, not Sid) is my creator. If everything in the universe is made of God/creator then creator made me in a long line of random sequence.

Dubya, you should read 'Conversation with God' books by Neale Donald Walsh. Very interesting. Keep an open mind.

Edit: Just thought of the book I was reading above:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-For-C.../dp/0310242096

Not an English major but never claimed to be and proof reading isn't a strong suit either.

You must work for the Oklahoman!

[Garin]

I get that. I just don't jump to the conclusion that because I don't understand the how, I must insert a deity. One which doesn't 'show himself'.

The wind is invisible also do you not believe it is real either?

[Chadanth]

The wind is invisible also do you not believe it is real either?

You can see, touch, hear, feel the wind. You can test for its presence, you can contain it, manipulate it, create it and destroy it. You can discern its composition. You can prove the wind.

[okcboomer]

I find it odd that when there is a beautiful morning then god made it........but the f5 tornado that causes tremendous death and destruction? Not a chance.

[Prunepicker]

You can see...

When can you see the wind?

[Chadanth]

When can you see the wind?

Using instruments, yes.

[Prunepicker]

I find it odd that when there is a beautiful morning then god made it...
but the f5 tornado that causes tremendous death and destruction?
Not a chance.

Since when?

[Prunepicker]

Using instruments, yes.

Which instruments?

[Chadanth]

Which instruments?

Doppler radar comes to mind. You can't see bacteria with the naked eye either