Trooper Brian Orr (OU Tackle Trooper) Should Be Arrested

[hoya]

The guy also said in an interview that he wasn't going to file any complaints against the trooper or any one else...
Unless he lied, case closed!

Statements to the media don't prevent you from later changing your mind.

[ou48A]

Statements to the media don't prevent you from later changing your mind.

No and just because the sky is blue doesn’t mean that its going to stay blue all day!

[hoya]

No and just because the sky is blue doesn’t mean that its going to stay blue all day!

That's exactly right. Tonight it'll be black. Things change as conditions and circumstances change.

[Zuplar]

I have made jurors cry before.

Obviously I don't have this guy's story, but it'll be sad by the time I was through with it.

So you are saying if you were his lawyer, you'd doctor is story up to gain sympathy with the jurors?

[hoya]

So you are saying if you were his lawyer, you'd doctor is story up to gain sympathy with the jurors?

I'm not going to tell him to lie, if that's what you mean. But I will piece together relevant facts to present a compelling narrative.

[Jeepnokc]

Then how come nobody that I have seen out side the message board world is siding with you 3.
If there was something to this there would already be plenty of sharks in the water wanting to represent the guy...
Do you really think the trooper and others are stupid enough to not have follow the law and their rules in front of thousand of other attorneys, judges and countless TV cameras. You have a very tough case and you know it.

If I gathered correctly from your previous post, your wife is a LEO. What I have found over the last 15 years of practicing criminal law on both sides as well as teaching at a Reserve CLEET academy is that police officers are not really taught the law correctly. I have had to argue with troopers when I was a prosecutor on issues they were flat out wrong BUT they were told it was OK at the academy or by other officers. Similar to this case...I had the case law to show the officer that he was wrong but didn't matter because so other cop told him he was right. I have police officers now that will pull me aside and ask me what the law is on DUI related issues. Some of these were cops that I had gotten their cases tossed because they made a honest mistake based on what they were told or taught and asked me how they should have done it because they want to do it right the next time. I respect wanting to do it right and have no issue discussing it with them. Police officers have a huge amount of authority and with that comes responsibility.

Look at the case that in on trial right now in OK County with the Del City Officer being charged with manslaughter. The FOP and police agencies are all jumping up and down saying that they legally can shoot a fleeing felon. The District Attorney didn't see it that way and he is facing criminal charges for allegedly shooting an unarmed fleeing teenager in the back. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I agree with the original poster that there was excessive force used here. I don't think the trooper should be arrested but he did step over the limits. Fortunately this young man was not hurt. Had he been injured severely...You can bet this would end up in civil court and I think there would be a high possibility of success.

Interestingly, this man said he had done this one other time in his life (not an OU game) and was escorted off the field and ejected.

[Zuplar]

I'm not going to tell him to lie, if that's what you mean. But I will piece together relevant facts to present a compelling narrative.

I'm not going to say what my initially inclination was when I read your posts, but needless to say those kinds of comments are why there is the negative stereotype associated with lawyers.

[Of Sound Mind]

Look at the case that in on trial right now in OK County with the Del City Officer being charged with manslaughter. The FOP and police agencies are all jumping up and down saying that they legally can shoot a fleeing felon. The District Attorney didn't see it that way and he is facing criminal charges for shooting an unarmed fleeing teenager in the back. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And I agree 100% with the DA with this case. So, until the Cleveland County DA brings charges of excessive force, I'll err on the side of the LEO in this OU matter, notwithstanding the ambulance-chasers' opinions.

[jerrywall]

Well, I was easily able to find this poor "victim's" phone number and mailing address on white pages. I assume that since this is such a travesty of justice, and such an open and shut, easily winnable case, we should be expecting to see an announcement of a lawsuit against the OHP on the behalf of Ronald Butch Mais any day now?

Because if I was a lawyer, and I felt it was such a travesty, and that the case was easily winnable, I'd definitely get involved (unless I was a hypocrite of course).

[SoonerDave]

Clips here are the first I've seen of it. I watched a couple of clips a few times. Thought I'd be outraged. Nope.

Some folks disagree, including folks whose opinions I frequently respect. Happens from time to time.

Had the trooper driven through the man straight on into the ground, I might feel differently about it.

This was not that, and as much as I am not a fan of instant replay, after further review, the ruling on the field is upheld.

Love this. Major props, kevinpate!

[hoya]

Well, I was easily able to find this poor "victim's" phone number and mailing address on white pages. I assume that since this is such a travesty of justice, and such an open and shut, easily winnable case, we should be expecting to see an announcement of a lawsuit against the OHP on the behalf of Ronald Butch Mais any day now?

Because if I was a lawyer, and I felt it was such a travesty, and that the case was easily winnable, I'd definitely get involved (unless I was a hypocrite of course).

I don't practice that kind of law.

[hoya]

I'm not going to say what my initially inclination was when I read your posts, but needless to say those kinds of comments are why there is the negative stereotype associated with lawyers.

It's not my job to be popular. It's my job to represent my clients to the best of my ability.

[tomokc]

Now that we've fully explored the relevant facts (that the law sides against the trooper civilly and criminally, but history shows that charges or reprimands are extremely unlikely), I'm going back to regular programming. Too much purse-swinging going on in here.

[ou48A]

If I gathered correctly from your previous post, your wife is a LEO. What I have found over the last 15 years of practicing criminal law on both sides as well as teaching at a Reserve CLEET academy is that police officers are not really taught the law correctly. I have had to argue with troopers when I was a prosecutor on issues they were flat out wrong BUT they were told it was OK at the academy or by other officers. Similar to this case...I had the case law to show the officer that he was wrong but didn't matter because so other cop told him he was right. I have police officers now that will pull me aside and ask me what the law is on DUI related issues. Some of these were cops that I had gotten their cases tossed because they made a honest mistake based on what they were told or taught and asked me how they should have done it because they want to do it right the next time. I respect wanting to do it right and have no issue discussing it with them. Police officers have a huge amount of authority and with that comes responsibility.

Look at the case that in on trial right now in OK County with the Del City Officer being charged with manslaughter. The FOP and police agencies are all jumping up and down saying that they legally can shoot a fleeing felon. The District Attorney didn't see it that way and he is facing criminal charges for allegedly shooting an unarmed fleeing teenager in the back. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I agree with the original poster that there was excessive force used here. I don't think the trooper should be arrested but he did step over the limits. Fortunately this young man was not hurt. Had he been injured severely...You can bet this would end up in civil court and I think there would be a high possibility of success.

Interestingly, this man said he had done this one other time in his life (not an OU game) and was escorted off the field and ejected.

My wife is not a LEO. At least I don't think she is. But what's an LEO?

[jerrywall]

Law Enforcement Officer.

[kevinpate]

jerrywall, while I have little doubt someone or three or thirteen will send the chap an advertisement communication, either criminal or civil or both, but there are limits in place on attorneys in any field going out and actively soliciting strangers to sign them up as clients.

[ou48A]

Law Enforcement Officer.

I should have know that one ....No she is not then.... but she is an OKC pubic school teacher which can be like law enforcement in some ways. There are arrest made in OKC schools nearly every day, sometimes many arrest....

We really should talk far more about the OKCPS issues on this board. It's a huge problem in many ways.

[Jeepnokc]

Wow...she really is in the warzone. Takes true dedication to be inner city teacher.

[Zuplar]

It's not my job to be popular. It's my job to represent my clients to the best of my ability.

And I'm sure that's your perception. Same could be said about that Trooper. Maybe he just thought he was doing his job to the best of his ability.

[ou48A]

Wow...she really is in the warzone. Takes true dedication to be inner city teacher.

It really is a warzone. What goes on is very under reported and relatively unknown by the OKC public.
She is in a south side OKC middle School. I have at times encouraged her to move on but she is very dedicated to the cause as are the majority of other teachers who stay long term.....They need all the good help they can get.

[hoya]

And I'm sure that's your perception. Same could be said about that Trooper. Maybe he just thought he was doing his job to the best of his ability.

The difference is I'm careful not to open myself up to criminal or civil liability. I know the law and stay well within the boundaries of what I know is safe. This cop went well outside the boundaries of what I know is safe.

[Zuplar]

The difference is I'm careful not to open myself up to criminal or civil liability. I know the law and stay well within the boundaries of what I know is safe. This cop went well outside the boundaries of what I know is safe.

Like I said in my recap of the events (which I was at), in realtime it's hard to know what's someone is going to do. Again I'm sure his perception was that he is doing the his job and never intended to harm him.

Now if in the coming days the Trooper is joking with his buddies saying something like, man I wish I would have hit him harder, or something along that line, then clearly he intended to hurt the guy and feel free to go after him.

People screw up all the time, and sometimes they do it when trying to do the right thing. I have no problem holding Law Enforcement to a higher standard, but for some that standard is never high enough. It's a tough job and given the circumstances I don't know that I could have done any better.

[hoya]

I don't know that he was trying to hurt him. I don't think he was. I do know that he very easily could have hurt him. Tackling someone to the ground can be very dangerous.

I'm a criminal defense attorney. I've had clients who were in jail, or in court, act up and become violent. Sometimes I've been standing right next to them when it happens. You don't want to be in an interview room at the jail when some big 6'8" dude gets mad and starts throwing things and threatening you. Not fun. I've seen cops use force that ran the entire range, from totally acceptable to "they should be the ones in jail" unacceptable. Most of the time, the force I've seen was appropriate to the situation. I have a lot of respect for police who do that. But I've also seen cops purposefully hurt guys who were just making a lot of noise and being a general pain in the ass. To me this looked like a police officer who got way too excited and saw an opportunity to vent some aggression. Not appropriate.

You don't want police officers to automatically assume that someone is carrying a bomb or that they are automatically violent. That's a horrible standard to use and it will lead to people getting hurt or killed. Because anyone could be carrying a bomb or a gun. If the cops really thought this dumbass was a mad bomber, their response should not be to tackle him. It should be to shoot him. So the argument that "oh he could have been blah blah blah" is disingenuous.

[Dubya61]

So you are saying if you were his lawyer, you'd doctor is story up to gain sympathy with the jurors?

Look, he's clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed. Maybe his (as yet un-hired) lawyer simply needs to get him to realize his situation?
Hey, I "hate" lawyers just as much as the next joke, but I'd side with the three making their case and even the one who countered them. There are only two clear cut facts that I can see. An imbecile ran onto the field and he was tackled by OHP. To some, it seems excessive. To some, not so much.

[Edmond_Outsider]

I'm not sure what I think about this, but from the perspective of stadium security, I doubt you want to let unauthorized access under any circumstance on the feild. What is reasonable, I don't know. My initial reaction was, "awesome tackle, OHP dude!" But, I'm not going to pretend to be a lawyer and my wife who is contiually reminds me I know nothing about her profession.

No argument there.

However, I did sit on a jury in a civil action against OHP so I have observed how civil cases against OHP can work. According to the judge, our case was typical and it focused on if the Trooper followed procedure. Use of force is all about procedure, seems to my ignorant opinion. I do read up on it when I cases concerning use of force come up. I've often been surprised at what procedure advocates and this one doesn't seem so outrageous to me. Nor does it seem clear for against excessive force.

It seems like for a civil case, a complicating factor would be the novelty of the offence. Storming the feild at an OU Football Game isn't so routine that how an officer deals with it is firmly established in Oklahoma courts. As a result, the jury would decide based on each sides' interpretation of procedure.

The basis for that would be Oklahoma's policy which the state has kindly put on line for us to argue about.

Smoke up johnny:
Use of Force
Use of Force Continuum