Re: Toll Every Interstate
I'm okay with it so long as we charge according to weight. It's not Ford Fiestas and Honda Fits causing wear and tear to our system, it's 18-wheelers. Let them pay for the damage we're subsidizing right now. Of course, that's a very academic point. There's no way something like this would make it out of Congress with all of the lobbies who'd be against it.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
There's a pretty direct correlation between vehicle weight, miles driven and fuel consumption, so government needs to find the easiest way to allocate costs to motorists, and a fuel tax is it.
The tax is already in place, it's easy to raise and lower, the revenue stream is constant, and motorists who drive less are rewarded by paying less. Greater fuel efficiency provides a benefit for motorist and state: More money in the motorist's pocket from buying less gasoline, and less wear on the road by either fewer miles driven or lighter cars on the road. Finally, it gives the motorist control over what he pays: If one chooses to own a larger, fuel-inefficient car and drive it a lot will pay more.
David
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Which takes us to restructuring campaign finance. Oh what a web we have woven. Heck...I'm starting to like Kerry's 2020 prediction. Let's just blow this whole experiment up and start over. I don't think anyone can seriously say government is working for the people right now. It is a stalled 2 party system where both parties are bred to hate each other and that is all that matters. This thread is a great example. Conservatives have no idea what a true conservative is expect that they are suppose to hate democrats, gays, people that don't believe in their creator all while shouting "Murica!". Liberals are bred now to hate anything a conservative says and have strayed away from being against a government that seeks to force personal choice.Originally Posted by Midtowner
We all know the Declaration was the purest sign that the people have the right to throw the government out on its butt when it stops doing what the people want. Maybe it is time to throw the system out again and start over. Who knows. However, trying to get myself back on topic here.
I could see where major toll gates could have scales to weigh vehicles coming in. Most weigh stations require trucks to slow to around 30 mph give or take now, so there isn't any reason why they couldn't do that now for all vehicles.
David
Re: Toll Every Interstate
We also need to make sure though that the system accommodates electric, CNG, and other potential fuel sources going forward. A fuel tax doesn't do anything for someone driving a pure electric vehicle.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
I agree...but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that we probably disagree completely on who the stupid people actually are.
What "lifestyle" are the Tea Party people engaging in that is skyrocketing government debt??? The facts are that the main component of government debt that is clearly out of control is the ever increasing spending on entitlement programs. It's not even debatable. I'm not talking about Social Security either. You should direct your stare towards some of those millions and millions of able-bodied citizens in this country who have chosen to accept government handouts instead of working for a living.
So what lifestyle choice has put us in a position to be poised for the latest potential military action on the table??? You seem to have forgotten that THIS administration wants to get us into another military situation, this time in Syria. It has nothing to do with "keeping oil flowing" or whatever. Actually, we've got plenty of oil and other natural resources right here at home...if the "stupid people" would just allow us to extract and utilize it.
Using 130 years of temperature data from a planet that is 4.5 billion years old and trying to prove anything from that is like looking outside for a split second at night and concluding there must be no Sun. It's complete lunacy as well as the opposite of real science.
So basically if you're overweight, it's must be because you drive cars everywhere. That's laughable, ridiculous, and insulting all at the same time. There are millions and millions of us who drive everywhere AND walk AND ride bikes AND exercise AND are not overweight.
Government will never function with money it already has as long as there are politicians who wish to keep spending more and more.
Government regulates things it should as well as it shouldn't, and a lot of that has nothing to do with one's lifestyle. There are many people who simply have a problem with government OVER regulation.
For the record, I have no problem with citizens paying for the roads that they use. Obviously, you don't want to pay for roads because it's quite clear you don't use them very often. On the flipside, I certainly don't want to keep subsidizing these utopian "rail" systems that I and most others won't and don't use either. If rail were really the answer, Amtrak wouldn't be in the red and the free marketplace would have companies building tracks everywhere.
Banned
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Video Expert - let me give you a little example of what I am talking about.
This is our front page story today.
Building blossoms as more come to call Nocatee home | jacksonville.com
If you go down and ask these people about government spending and taxes they will probably sound exactly like you - but yet they are doing the very thing causing the problem. No one wants to pay for freeways but they keep moving to areas that require more to be built. We have had to build 2 brand new freeways for these people and rebuild 10 miles of US1 including new fly-overs.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
And now we get to the part where we have to live in the real world. In the real world, we aren't going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We aren't going to abandon the interstate highway system and we aren't going to have another Constitutional Convention to restart everything. Too many vested interests all the way around. No one on Earth wants the sort of chaos that would follow the United States saying "screw it" and starting over. It would disrupt shipping all over the globe. Wars would break out everywhere. The global economy would collapse. And I wouldn't be able to get ice cream. All in all, a pretty bad state of affairs.
What we need to do is begin gradual change, and stick with it. Throwing out the whole system is like a person who needs to lose weight taking a chainsaw and cutting off their leg. "There, 30 lbs lighter!" Better to exercise more and go on a diet.
Here's what we need:
1) Stop building massive new interstates everywhere. We can't sustain the ones we have at our current level of taxation.
2) When interstates are rebuilt and repaired, we need a new technology that makes them last longer. My understanding is that newer types of concrete and newer construction techniques are already increasing the lifespan of roads.
3) We need a new funding source. This will be a hodge-podge of different methods. We will have more toll roads, a higher gas tax, a higher tax of vehicle purchases. We may need to have an operators tax on 18 wheelers to even let them on the road. Maybe a shipping tax on anything that is transported on any public highway. All of these will be opposed and none of them will totally fix the problem.
4) We need a viable alternate method of transportation. High speed rail is much cheaper to construct than the interstate. It's cheaper to operate as well. A nation-wide rail system will be a viable alternative to the interstate. Cities also need to begin planning for this future, which means streetcars and commuter rail around the city.
In the end, we're not going to have a perfectly designed SimCity style nation where every last detail is perfect. We're going to have bridges and interstates that need replaced. We're going to have funding shortages. At some point we're just going to have to fork over a lot of cash up front to rebuild things when it get bad. But it won't collapse as long as we don't ignore the problem.
Banned
Re: Toll Every Interstate
While we are in realworldville, can any interstate revenue increase or spending cut pass Congress? Do you think a moratorium on new freeways has a chance of passing? I don't.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
I'm originally from Florida and very familiar with the area. My wife also lived in both Orange Park and that far away outpost known as Middleburg. If you read the article, you will find that many are choosing Nocotee because they don't want their kids going to Duval County Public Schools or don't want to have to pay to send their children to private schools in Jacksonville. Maybe if DCPS had their act together, these people wouldn't be choosing to move to master planned community with better schools like Nocotee. Perhaps you do not have children of your own and cannot relate. Sorry...but not everyone wants to live in San Marco.
Lastly, as far as the Nocotee Parkway is concerned, you didn't build it. That project was built and paid for by the developers there and is also used as a primary hurricane exit route for others. And many of the other rebuilds have more to do with the population expansion of Florida in general, the increased traffic brought on by tourism, and Hurricane routes needing to be updated to accommodate the increased traffic during evacuations. Maybe if you all chose to live in an area that didn't sit on and near a coastal area in the middle of a hurricane zone, taxpayers wouldn't have to build and expand a bunch of four lane highways that you all need to use to get away from them.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
How many Tea Party people bought homes in Edmond? Or out in Piedmont? Or south of Norman? By doing that, they require the state to 1) build new 4 lane roads to service those areas, 2) build new schools, 3) provide water and sewage, and on and on. When I was a kid, I had an aunt and uncle move to Tuttle. It was mostly farmland. Now there are a ton of people there.
Here's a link to a discussion that's on this very forum, where one of our forum members (Zuplar) talks about how bad the roads are out on SW 104th and Council. That used to be the middle of nowhere. Now there are some pretty nice neighborhoods there. But because the land is cheap, the property taxes are low. The property taxes don't cover the cost of building and maintaining the roads, building the new schools, or providing the needed infrastructure. Moreover, when people continue to move further out, the previous generation's "further out" loses out and property values decline. In 25 years the nice neighborhood on SW 104th and Council will not be so nice anymore (thus generating lower property taxes), and the new nice neighborhood will be at SW 149th and County Line Rd.
Link: http://www.okctalk.com/transportatio...-roadwork.html
The final cost of the Iraq war has been calculated at somewhere between 3 and 4 trillion dollars. I don't think anyone disagrees that a large part of our interest in the region is because of the need to keep world oil supply steady. This is not a value judgment -- I am not saying we are wrong to try and have stablility over there. It is needed because the world needs oil. And since prices are determined globally, it doesn't matter that we could supply all our own energy if push came to shove. Problems in the Gulf would affect us anyway. That's why we are involved over there.So what lifestyle choice has put us in a position to be poised for the latest potential military action on the table??? You seem to have forgotten that THIS administration wants to get us into another military situation, this time in Syria. It has nothing to do with "keeping oil flowing" or whatever. Actually, we've got plenty of oil and other natural resources right here at home...if the "stupid people" would just allow us to extract and utilize it.
But... if we lived a lifestyle that wasn't so dependent on oil, we wouldn't have nearly as strong of an interest as we do.
This isn't about a global warming debate, JTF was making a seperate point. He's saying you can't complain about global warming and drive a gas guzzler 40 miles to work every day.Using 130 years of temperature data from a planet that is 4.5 billion years old and trying to prove anything from that is like looking outside for a split second at night and concluding there must be no Sun. It's complete lunacy as well as the opposite of real science.
Part of the problem with obesity comes from sitting for long periods of time. If you have a 45 minute commute in the morning and afternoon, that's an hour and a half you could be doing something else. It certainly doesn't help obesity. Generally cities that are more walkable have lower obesity than cities that aren't. If you can walk down to the park on a nice afternoon, you're a lot more likely to do it than if you have to get in your car and drive. It's also healthier for you. But when you build neighborhoods at SW 104th and Council, you aren't walking down to the park. You aren't walking to the nice little cafe down the street. You have to get in your car and drive everywhere, and that's more time sitting on your butt.So basically if you're overweight, it's must be because you drive cars everywhere. That's laughable, ridiculous, and insulting all at the same time. There are millions and millions of us who drive everywhere AND walk AND ride bikes AND exercise AND are not overweight.
There will always always always be those politicians. JTF's point is that many of us live a lifestyle that requires massive government spending without even realizing it.Government will never function with money it already has as long as there are politicians who wish to keep spending more and more.
It has a whole lot to do with our lifestyle. I'm sure you would want police protection and fire protection on your home. I'm sure you want a nice school for your kids. You want clean water and all that sort of thing. But if you build far enough away from the city, then you are causing the government to spend more money than the person who buys a home in an already established area. When millions of people do it, it means we as a nation expend a lot more resources than we would otherwise.Government regulates things it should as well as it shouldn't, and a lot of that has nothing to do with one's lifestyle. There are many people who simply have a problem with government OVER regulation.
We spent about $700 million to redo a 4 mile stretch of I-40. That is $700 million in the red. It generates zero income for the state. It's free to drive on. We don't pay a single dime to use it. It's 100% subsidized by the government. Now... does it allow for the transportation of goods, does it allow for more access to important services? Of course. That's why we built it. But you can't legitimately be upset about Amtrak being in the red, and then totally ignore the fact that all our roads have been built with tax dollars. It would be like if you bought a house on a 30 year loan, and then the government bought me a house with your tax dollars, and then I made fun of you because you were struggling with your mortgage.For the record, I have no problem with citizens paying for the roads that they use. Obviously, you don't want to pay for roads because it's quite clear you don't use them very often. On the flipside, I certainly don't want to keep subsidizing these utopian "rail" systems that I and most others won't and don't use either. If rail were really the answer, Amtrak wouldn't be in the red and the free marketplace would have companies building tracks everywhere.
Every non-toll road in the country loses money. They cost money to build and they charge zero dollars to use. Every single inch of highway is in the red. Once you realize that, when you look around and you see hundreds of thousands of miles of beautiful 4 lane road that run beside empty farmland, you will realize how much money our current system wastes.
Banned
Re: Toll Every Interstate
So lets assume Congress would pass any thing we on OKCTalk can agree on, how about this solution.
1) Repeal the federal gasoline tax.
2) Put a toll on every US interstate on and off ramp with the toll based on weight and distance traveled - after mother nature's overhead has been factored in.
3) They money collected stays in the state it was collected in (if State X needs additional money for some project the toll rate in State X increases to pay for it)
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Sounds expensive with far less return on investment than simply increasing the gas tax to keep up with inflation.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
That's EXACTLY the point.
People are making choices in where they move, where they build. Those choices are heavily influenced by what they get for "free". If I know that I can buy a nice house 5 miles further out, on inexpensive land, and the only cost I will pay is an extra 3 minutes commute each way while I fly down the road at 75 mph, of course I'm going to do it. But that choice is operating in the presence of an unseen government subsidy. That subsidy is the fact that the government is going to send cops out there when I call for them. The government is going to maintain that road. The government is going to let my kids use their school. I don't pay extra for that privilege. I don't have to give the cops $500 every time I call because of a prowler. I don't pay extra money to use the road in front of my house. But it certainly costs.
Would so many people move out to very distant suburbs if the government said "no, you build your own school, you maintain your own road, you hire your own cops". I don't think they would. They would move to existing neighborhoods. The $20K you saved by moving to cheaper land would quickly be spent trying to get the same level of convenience you get in the city.
JTF's point is that this is a HUGE subsidy and a VAST amount of debt, and a lot of Tea Party people don't even recognize it or choose to acknowledge it.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
1) Leave gas tax in place.
2) Toll major US interstates between cities. Too hard right now to toll places like the Crosstown or I-235.
3) Significant shipping tax on 18 wheelers.
4) Higher purchase tax on all vehicles, based on weight.
Banned
Re: Toll Every Interstate
The problem I have with that plan is that it charges people who don't use it and doesn't do anything for slowing the creation of new freeways or expanding current ones - which in turns means an ever increasing need for more revenue.
How about a phased toll approach
Phase 1 - Toll rural sections of freeways
Phase 2 - Close 75% of all interstate ramps
Phase 3 - Toll all remaining on-off ramps and remove rural tolls
Platinum Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
if you buy just about anything you are making use of the interstate system
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Some of you are mixing road debt with municipal services paid for by citizens of communities who shop and pay sales taxes. People who choose to live in suburbs pay for their services already. And the "Government" doesn't send cops anywhere. Municipal fire, police, etc are funded in individual cities at a local level BY THE RESIDENTS via sales taxes. Water and sewage are paid for by the users of the community as well. If you own property, you pay property tax. Schools are primarily funded by property taxes. It's apples and oranges. If you want to look at cities who are in debt, look no further than that great inner city utopia of Detroit.
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Will never, ever happen.
The gasoline tax is about as equitable, simple and cost-effective of a revenue collection plan as you'll find, and it's already in place. As Venture pointed out, the wrinkle is the greater adoption of non-gasoline-fueled vehicles.
The financial and technical barriers of a nationwide toll system will make it all but impossible to create, install and maintain.
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Just maybe, OKC (or any large city for that matter) needs to de-annex some of their far reaching outskirts, thus eliminating the need for services on the outer fringe...?
Participating Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
And just think how even much more these guys would have to pay for their groceries at Whole Foods if we had didn't have a highway system to transport goods.
David
Re: Toll Every Interstate
With some rough numbers. I-40 in Oklahoma has around 115 exits border to border. You are looking at around $10,000 per electronic toll reader. So most are going to require 4 to record when you enter and exit the interstate. I wouldn't include interstate interchanges because those people who be scanned in when they got on that interstate. Exits that have more than one lane would require more, but it all should average out to 4 per interchange.
So there we are looking at $4.6 million to toll I-40 completely with the equipment. Monthly operating costs are estimated around $1,000 a month...or $460,000 for the 460 units needed. There will be other ramp up costs of course - getting the electronic tags out to everyone and managing the huge influx of people. However in the grand scheme of things not that much. I-40 in OKC alone does around 150,000 cars a day. So when you think on average if tolls are just a $1, those vehicles will be generating $4.5 million a month - in OKC alone - or $54 million a year. That is pretty significant...especially when you consider that the money goes back in for toll road operations. It would also go in to help pay for highway patrol and other items in the existing state budget.
Platinum Member
Re: Toll Every Interstate
why would the money go to the state and not the federal govt for the federal highway
David
Re: Toll Every Interstate
Go back a couple pages where I stated in a tolling of the interstate system, they would all be turned over to the state to manage. Most already have turnpike authorities and know how to manage them. In a way it would be the federal government washing its hands of the interstate system and letting the states being solely responsible for them.
Banned
Re: Toll Every Interstate
So what - we throw away over half the food we buy and that doesn't count what gets thrown away between the field and the grocery store check-out line. Plus, our poor people are the most overweight population in the history of the world. I think the doubling of food prices would be a huge step in the right direction - AND - would encourage us to restore a local food supply model that we had for the first 350 years in America.
Re: Toll Every Interstate
I find it interesting that all these "hate the interstate" discussions are woefully absent of discussion of the reality of contribution to industry efficiency, productivity and net social rate of return as has been quantified numerous times by many people/organizations. An understanding of the impact of interstates, or any other infrastructure item, that does not objectively look at ALL effects is devoid of context, which just makes it opinion. Most people are totally ignorant of all the factors that affects economics and tend to focus on a few they know, understand, or have taken on as their personal cause. Like anything, the roll of the interstate system has now had 50 years to have it greatest incentive effect, it will not have the same marginal effect going forward. But the same would be said of developed rail systems, ports, airports, etc.
Does making a toll system make sense...it may deserve more study. However, we must be careful not to start disincentivizing marginal but important start-up and other industries which help the overall economy but may be eliminated by added taxes. Often, there are serious unintended consequences to incomplete analysis or misapplication of selected statistics. Can anyone say Obamacare?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks