Downtown Grocery Store

[Pete]

Did the Criterion and Steelyard get a cash subsidy or loans? I honestly don't remember.

Cash (TIF).

And Steelyard got preferential price on buying land.

[Spartan]

What incentives are Criterion and Steelyard getting? From the city. I know DEQ chipped in a brownfields grant, and I think HUD has a piece of it. I read that it was NSP, so while that would be directed by the city, it would be for an inclusionary affordable housing component, and not for retail.

edit: Well the land deal was typical of an OCURA bid.

[Pete]

^

TIF cash.

[bchris02]

Per Steve's twitter, it looks like a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market may be headed for downtown.

Pete, do you have any insight into this? Wal-Mart can build high-quality urban stores as they have in other cities but the question is, will they in OKC? I think if they plan on putting in a standard suburban big box like they have all over the suburbs here it should be fought, regardless of how bad downtown OKC needs a full-service grocery store.

[hfry]

Bchris I understand your concern with Walmart mucking this up by judging by Steves story from last Friday on the urban neighborhood Walmart he was in in Arkansas it was obvious this was being looked at. My guess is it's the land on Broadway where the RFP will be issued or over in the Halls 21c district.
If I remember the article right he was in Arkansa to see a 21c hotel and the Walmart was in a development close to it so the connection to here could make sense.

[bchris02]

Bchris I understand your concern with Walmart mucking this up by judging by Steves story from last Friday on the urban neighborhood Walmart he was in in Arkansas it was obvious this was being looked at. My guess is it's the land on Broadway where the RFP will be issued or over in the Halls 21c district.
If I remember the article right he was in Arkansa to see a 21c hotel and the Walmart was in a development close to it so the connection to here could make sense.

If it's going to be implemented as part of the Hall Capital complex, that could be really good. Something like this would be great.



Let's hope this is what ends up happening, or worst case something like this.



THIS should be fought tooth and nail if proposed.

[bchris02]

This makes me feel a lot better. Didn't see this article when he published it. If this is what is being proposed, it will be a win. I dislike Wal-Mart, but in terms of a full grocery store, there aren't any other big chains with deep pockets in OKC and it seems like the local grocers i.e. Uptown want to wait a while before opening downtown considering the lower number of rooftops and higher costs of building an urban store.

http://newsok.com/article/5494918?ut...gn=NIC-Twitter

[no1cub17]

This would be a real shame. Why does everyone act like we don't have a grocery store downtown? Has no one here heard of Native Roots?

[bchris02]

This would be a real shame. Why does everyone act like we don't have a grocery store downtown? Has no one here heard of Native Roots?

I would hate to see them go out of business, but it may be inevitable. Their selection is just too limited for most people to rely on them as their primary grocery store and as soon as something with a wider selection opens up, they might be in trouble if they don't adapt. I think a Wal-Mart over by the 21c would have negligible effect on Native Roots as it would be far enough away and they serve different markets. An Uptown Grocery in Midtown or Sprouts at 4th and EKG would be bad news for them however.

[Urbanized]

... If I remember the article right he was in Arkansa to see a 21c hotel and the Walmart was in a development close to it so the connection to here could make sense.

It was a ULI peer city trip. 21c in Bentonville happened to be where we stayed, but it was not the focus of the trip, nor was Walmart. The trip involved a number of downtown OKC's prominent developers and real estate brokers; people whose developments dominate the discussions in this forum. You can see the details of the trip here: http://oklahoma.uli.org/event/nw-ark...eer-city-trip/

Several of the people on the trip did acknowledge that Wal-Mart has shown considerable interest in downtown OKC recently, and there was some discussion among the group as to whether it would be more good than bad if it happened.

There was evidence in Bentonville that Wal-Mart is focusing on urban centers as their last remaining expansion frontier, and that the company (and the Walton family) were working to overcome its legacy as a town destroyer and re-cast as a city BUILDER, with a focus on quality urban stores that encourage the success of other businesses around them. A number have been built with structured or very limited parking. The keynote even included images of a DC Wal-Mart with ZERO parking. Not to say that would (or should) happen here; only that it shows a their level of commitment to urban development.

Part of our session was in an Arvest conference center directly across the street from an urban grocery store that was about as nice as any grocery I've been in. It wasn't an especially large store, but the selection and configuration were top-notch, and even included a great number of organic products. I think the entire group was impressed, but of course we also all realized this was in the company's hometown. Also worth noting was that there were few customers when we were there.

As an old Main Street Program manager, I remain highly skeptical of Wal-Mart. I'm concerned about their tendency to quickly and completely abandon efforts based on spreadsheets. But I WILL say that if the store we saw in Bentonville was plopped in downtown OKC - and Wal-Mart remained fully committed to it - it would be about as good as anything else we can imagine, and in many cases better. And, as was pointed out by a few on the trip, it is far more realistic and attainable in the near future than something like a City Target, Whole Foods, or perhaps even Uptown Market.

[David]

I remember seeing pictures of that D.C. Walmart posted in a discussion here a few years back, and thinking that it at least wouldn't be a bad solution at all.

To say that we're a heavy market for Walmart would be an understatement, maybe that could work in our favor for once if we ended up with a properly urban variety downtown.

[hfry]

Thanks Urbandized! Sounds like a great trip and I remain skeptical but hopefully they can do a store right downtown. For as heavily populated with Walmart as the city is I think it's the least they can do is give downtown an ideal urban store for the growing number of residents.

[zefferoni]

When I visited Chicago a couple years ago I was impressed by the Target downtown. I don't know where something like it could fit in downtown OKC, but I think something like that would be fantastic.

[Pete]

I think a Wal-Mart over by the 21c would have negligible effect on Native Roots as it would be far enough away and they serve different markets. An Uptown Grocery in Midtown or Sprouts at 4th and EKG would be bad news for them however.

Where are you getting that Walmart is interested in the area around 21c?

[Roger S]

Where are you getting that Walmart is interested in the area around 21c?

See Post #104

[Pete]

If Walmart goes downtown, I would expect them to not be on the west side / 21c area just because they have a Neighborhood Market at NW 23rd & Penn.

Just my gut as a former broker to retail tenants.

I suspect they would strongly prefer 4th & EKG, as that would also catch a ton of people on their way out of downtown after work. Pretty much everyone working downtown and working in North OKC and Edmond head out that direction and it gets tons of evening rush hour traffic as a result.

Also, it would be on the streetcar line and within walking distance of the biggest concentration of housing units in all of downtown: Deep Deuce.

[HangryHippo]

If Walmart goes downtown, I would expect them to not be on the west side / 21c area just because they have a Neighborhood Market at NW 23rd & Penn.

Just my gut as a former broker to retail tenants.

I suspect they would strong prefer 4th & EKG, as that would also catch a ton of people on their way out of downtown out of work. Pretty much everyone working downtown and working in North OKC and Edmond head out that direction and it gets tons of evening rush hour traffic as a result.

Also, it would be on the streetcar line and within walking distance of the biggest concentration of housing units in all of downtown: Deep Deuce.

As a former broker to retail tenants, what does your gut tell you about this being part of the possible midrise development you've heard about for this site perhaps as the ground floor retail?

[Teo9969]

I wonder if a Wal-Mart could actually HELP Native Roots? With a Wal-Mart in the area, Native Roots could give up on trying to carry something in every cateogry and begin to focus on what is legitimately Wal-Mart's biggest grocery failure: Produce. If I lived downtown and had a choice between the 2 of the places, I'd buy my drinks, my cereals, my non perishibles etc etc etc. @ Wal-Mart and I'd buy my Asparagus, Rib-eye, Chicken and Deli meats at Native Roots.

[bchris02]

I wonder if a Wal-Mart could actually HELP Native Roots? With a Wal-Mart in the area, Native Roots could give up on trying to carry something in every cateogry and begin to focus on what is legitimately Wal-Mart's biggest grocery failure: Produce. If I lived downtown and had a choice between the 2 of the places, I'd buy my drinks, my cereals, my non perishibles etc etc etc. @ Wal-Mart and I'd buy my Asparagus, Rib-eye, Chicken and Deli meats at Native Roots.

Great points.

Native Roots should focus on what it does well: produce and deli. If they adapt and do that, I believe they can survive. In a space that small, focusing on their specialty is their only path forward as they wont be able to compete with a supermarket as a general purpose grocer.

[Pete]

As a former broker to retail tenants, what does your gut tell you about this being part of the possible midrise development you've heard about for this site perhaps as the ground floor retail?

From the beginning, I had heard Land Run and Mark Ruffin were planning a significant retail component to their development and that's what I'm still hearing.

It really does make sense at that location, with residential and/or office in a mid-rise structure above or directly adjacent.

If I was a grocer, that is where I would want to be downtown for all the reasons I mentioned.

[HangryHippo]

From the beginning, I had heard Land Run and Mark Ruffin were planning a significant retail component to their development and that's what I'm still hearing.

It really does make sense at that location, with residential and/or office in a mid-rise structure above or directly adjacent.

If I was a grocer, that is where I would want to be downtown for all the reasons I mentioned.

That's awesome. I understand the concerns surrounding Walmart, but we need something like this to show it can be done successfully. Others will take the leap once someone else does.

[bchris02]

Here's Steve's article on it.

http://newsok.com/making-a-market-in...rticle/5495604

[Anonymous.]

Reveal the retailer is Walmart, however, and the response is far less embracing. When I asked hypothetically if readers would welcome Walmart or wait another few years for a different option, more than half of those responding on Twitter said they'd prefer to wait.

I read a lot of those FB comments and Twitter comments. And I would bet more than half of them are from people who don't live downtown. Instead, they are suburbanites jumping on the bandwagon of anti-walmart establishments.

Downtown OKC is ready for this. I hope they don't let suburban background noise contaminate their plans.

[checkthat]

I read a lot of those FB comments and Twitter comments. And I would bet more than half of them are from people who don't live downtown. Instead, they are suburbanites jumping on the bandwagon of anti-walmart establishments.

Downtown OKC is ready for this. I hope they don't let suburban background noise contaminate their plans.

Heh, yeah, Walmart is great...as long as the downtown workers don't try to unionize:

http://fortune.com/2015/04/20/walmar...ings-plumbing/

[Pete]

One of the best things about a WNH for downtown is that they carry lots of household products and sundries, much more than a typical grocery store and way, way more than a place like Sprouts. And of course, at very good prices.

I prefer to spend my money elsewhere but if there was a good Neighborhood Market downtown I'd shop there all the time, just like I now use Sam's quite a bit as there is no Costco for my bulk dog food and a handful of other items. And frankly, the Sam's at 39th & May is completely fine and I'm not missing Costco nearly as much as I thought I would.

And I'd certainly rather than give my money than to the Homeland on Classen, as every time I shop there (and it still is my go-to) I feel like I'm enabling them and working against getting a much better option in the core.