The Underground

[Just the facts]

It was a New Urbanism Christmas for me so I thought I would share this page from The Smart Growth Manual.

[ljbab728]

New Orleans has many months of miserable weather? I never knew.

[catch22]

New Orleans has many months of miserable weather? I never knew.

Their summers are pretty hot and sticky from what I have heard. Have never been there, myself, though.

[ljbab728]

Their summers are pretty hot and sticky from what I have heard. Have never been there, myself, though.

That would hardly qualify for many months of miserable weather that would make people want to flock to tunnels or skywalks. Their weather isn't any more miserable than Houston or many other cities along the coast. I understand the Quebec reference (although Montreal with similar weather has had an extensive underground system for many years) but New Orleans isn't a good example.

[Just the facts]

I think the authors weere going for the two extremes - 'sever cold and wind' and 'hot and humid'. The conncourse and skywalk supporters say the system is most useful during the weather extremes, but the city and downtown businesses suffer every other day of the year. On my walking tour last Friday (temps in the low 60s) I took note of the lack of people on Park Ave vs. the large number of people crowding the FNC arcade. The problem with that is when FNC closes for the night the businesses also shut down because there is no time diversity to keep them open. However, the big problem is still the spreading of people on three horizontal planes and the ones at ground level are hidden in interior corridors.

[Snowman]

I think the authors weere going for the two extremes - 'sever cold and wind' and 'hot and humid'. The conncourse and skywalk supporters say the system is most useful during the weather extremes, but the city and downtown businesses suffer every other day of the year. On my walking tour last Friday (temps in the low 60s) I took note of the lack of people on Park Ave vs. the large number of people crowding the FNC arcade. The problem with that is when FNC closes for the night the businesses also shut down because there is no time diversity to keep them open. However, the big problem is still the spreading of people on three horizontal planes and the ones at ground level are hidden in interior corridors.

Those seem like secondary issues to the population density downtown is only now even approaching that of the average suburb after decades of it being far lower. When people are only downtown to work it kills a lot of demand outside of day hours as they are not going to do as much shopping or non-lunch meals. Limited middle and lower priced housing downtown is going to make labor costs higher further marginalizing non-peak hours.

[Just the facts]

I agree snowman, which is why I think the downtown community would be better served by keeping everyone who is downtown on the same horizontal plane. A business that is open 8 to 5 might be able to stay open until 8PM if they have direct access to the sidewalk and can set their own hours. This in turn will encourage more people to live near by if they know they have access (even limited access) to after-5PM amenities.

[lindsey]

I live and work downtown and use the underground frequently. I would be truly upset if it was closed down. The truth of the matter is that closing the underground will in no way impact how late business stay open. They either do stay open or they don't.

[Just the facts]

It is really pretty simple Lindsey. Businesses need customers. When you separate customers on multiple levels it reduces the number of people who walk by the front door. When that front door is located along a path that is only used between 8AM and 5PM - the Conncourse, the business closes at 5PM whether they want to or not. If the business is located inside another building and is not visible from the street it also closes when the office workers go home. This isn't rocket science or some crazy idea; it is how downtown retail operates in every town and city America that doesn't have skywalks and underground since the dawn of time.

The plan for retail is really very simple. Put all the people on the same plane as the front door and have that front door open to the sidewalk. At some point in the future when downtown has 50,000 full time residents the Conncourse might be okay.

[Snowman]

According to the website it is open weekdays from 6AM - 8PM, and I know I have used parts of it outside of those hours. If there were more full time residents then the hours would have a good chance of being extended to at 11 PM-ish if not 24/7.

[Just the facts]

Do you know if any stores are open till 8PM.

[Snowman]

I do not remember any that close near eight, most of the ones I remember close hours for downtown are more toward 5:00PM or 10:00PM

[Just the facts]

It would be nice to get some usage numbers for the Conncourse and a comprehensive retail survey of downtown (address, front door location, hours of operation, etc...).

[Mr. Cotter]

It would be nice to get some usage numbers for the Conncourse and a comprehensive retail survey of downtown (address, front door location, hours of operation, etc...).

A comprehensive survey of CBD retail is very short. The Underground has zero retail establishments, but at least five stores have no sidewalk access (mostly in the FNC Arcade). The only retail open past 6:00 is the FedEx on Robinson. I count it as retail because of the floor space dedicated to office supplies. The only retail open weekends is the OKC MOA store. The following is a list of CBD retail, which I'm defining as a place to buy a widget, and excludes food and services:

A Story of Hope [M-F 9:00 – 5:00?]
BC Clark - M-S 9:30-5:30 - Closed Sundays
Becky’s Hallmark – M-F 8:30-5:00
Dr. Computers [M-F 9:00 – 5:00?]
Floral and Hardy (Oklahoma Tower Location) - 9am-5:00pm Mon-Fri
FedEx Office – M-F 7:30 a - 9:00 p
Nancy Farha’s – 9:30-5:30
OKC MOA Store – Monday 10 a.m.–3 p.m. Tuesday–Saturday 10 a.m.–5 p.m. Sunday Noon–5 p.m.
Teena Hicks - Monday-Friday: 9-6 Saturday: 10-1
The Medicine Cabinet – M-F 8:30-5:30
The Thunder Shop (Leadership) – M-F 11:00-5:30
The Thunder Shop (Arena) M-F 10:00-6:00
Tinder Box – M-F 8:30-5:00
Ton Papier – M-F 9:00-5:00
Triangle A&E M-F 8:00-5:00

The bracketed times are not confirmed.

[Just the facts]

Thanks Mr Cotter. Maybe we should expand the definition of downtown to include Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Midtown, and Automobile Alley. I would like to see how the Conncourse is impacting retail downtown vs. the areas directly adjacent to it. I would also include food and professional services.

[okcfollower]

Only thing I hate about the underground is between the FNC and the Chase tower underground where there is a single door. Wish it were a door going in each direction (push and pull) so that it would be easy to get past.

[ChaseDweller]

I've worked downtown since I graduated from school and I hate the conncourse. I don't use it unless it's really pouring or something, which is about twice a year. One issue the ladies in my office always bring up is the wind. It can be brutal, especially around Liberty (err Chase err Cotter Ranch) Tower. Skirts are a problem, as is hair, for them in the wind. I know folks that never go outside during the day. Garage to car to parking garage to conncourse to office to conncourse to lunch to conncourse to office to conncourse to car to garage. That would make me insane, but a lot of downtown workers work that way.

One bit of evidence that retail is suffering downtown because of lack of street traffic is the First National concourse. Though above ground, it's really a part of the Conncourse and retail does OK in there because people are walking through there all the time. Other places, not so much.

I'd love it if the conncourse were closed, but that's not likely to happen.

[Rover]

Instead of trying to force people to do something, why not just offer shopping worth going out for? Instead of this idea of trying to command people do as you say, try offering things worth changing habits for.

[Just the facts]

Instead of trying to force people to do something, why not just offer shopping worth going out for? This idea of trying to command people do as you say, try offering things worth changing habits for.

Because in order to entice retail you have to have customers. The Conncourse and skywalks are distributing those people across three horizontal planes. You have to close them to concentrate the customers on the sidewalk.

[Rover]

Because in order to entice retail you have to have customers. The Conncourse and skywalks are distributing those people across three horizontal planes. You have to close them to concentrate the customers on the sidewalk.

The customers are there. If you can't offer them something worth going shopping for, don't blame them. Don't try to force them just because YOU believe they should be forced to think like you. Give them a reason. You disrespect their free choice. I know you think everyone else is stupid, but they aren't.

[Rover]

In absence of providing good options, just force them...right?

To use the logic, there should be no subways, just sidewalks. Make everyone walk by a store.

Just get some storefronts open, some good merchandisers in place, and make it attractive to walk the streets.

[Spartan]

Don't subways empty crowds from each transit stop out into the sidewalks and streets?

Maybe I'm confused as to what a subway actually is

[Rover]

Sid, my remarks weren't aimed at your comments, but to JTFs. JTF is always advocating that we need to force people to live the way he dreams it should be, but which he doesn't even. You never claim that.

I don't care for the tunnel, but it does serve some purpose and doesn't have to be shut down, nor is it the cause of downtowns lack of retail. If a few retailers would take a reasonable chance and open stores with merchandise people who work and live downtown want, there is business to be had. BC Clark seems to do just fine. And no one would keep them from having an outside entrance or windows. If JTF is correct, then creating the right retail options and the right street ambiance would create traffic without FORCING people to walk by it. Make it right for them to CHOOSE to do it. Give them the good alternatives instead of blaming things that are irrelevant. Create a street where people WANT to be, not where they HAVE TO BE. There are thousands of people downtown every day. Give them a reason to go shop after work. If you don't, then they just want to get to their cars and go home.

[Spartan]

Downtown retail is very complicated

/understatement

[LandRunOkie]

I know you think everyone else is stupid, but they aren't.

When was the last time you turned on a TV?