Automobile Alley

[bombermwc]

I believe that info made my arguement for me. I don't see a huge national presense in those areas....mostly local.

Cough Cough.

[Architect2010]

I'm sure some of you are aware of this project already as one of the various AHMM projects in the works in the city. But I'd like some more info; does anyone know if this particular project is reality? I would think so, seeing the Client is Midtown Renaissance. Exciting? I think so. This is quality work and residental units! Right on Broadway! I hope the building across the street gets turned into housing as well.

From the AHMM Website:

Project Details
Completion: 2012
Clients: Midtown Renaissance

The project involves the restoration and modification of a 2-storey brick 1920s warehouse building on Oklahoma City’s Automobile Alley, 1100 N Broadway. Originally an automobile showroom, with some façade alterations accrued over the subsequent years through various commercial and storage uses, the work forms the second phase of the building’s refurbishment. This phase of work converts the second floor from automobile storage to 8 residential units, while introducing new retail along the prime 1100 N Broadway facade, car parking and a residential entrance at first floor.

[mcca7596]

New renderings of the Bindery project as well:

[betts]

Is the Bindery a conceptual drawing or is this actually going to happen?

[dankrutka]

Where is the Bindery project going (address)?

[mcca7596]

Is the Bindery a conceptual drawing or is this actually going to happen?

On AHMM's website it says "Completion:2011". I would imagine it has a similar status as the Flatiron project, in that it is proceeding slowly, but is certainly intended to come to fruition.

Where is the Bindery project going (address)?

Across from the substation on the south side of 10th street. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...9.17,,0,-13.44

[Spartan]

I'm going to quote myself, the post that prompted this reply, for emphasis:

Bomber, you have to understand the concept of sustainability better. It's an academic tool that can help people plan for something to last longer and not meet the same limited fate of other real estate ventures from the last half century. It's not as easy as being opposed to everything new and being cranky to concepts old and new alike.

Tell us what you're for. I would also encourage you to learn more about concepts such as sustainability that can help make a real estate venture actually last longer than 30 years prime. That's what Oklahoma needs more of. We can make things work for the long haul, we can build a great city, we just have to embrace a different development philosophy than the broken ones from the past.

Spartan - what so we should just push for everything to involve national chains rather than having a local flavor because they MIGHT have more staying power? Sorry, I don't buy it. You guys keep wanting examples, and I keep giving them. Check out 5th St. in Austin. How many big box stores are in there? For that matter, freaking Campus Corner...hello! And don't give me any crap about population density. AA is in the CBD and once the trolly is in, it will be even easier to get around. Plus, you can WALK from one end of downtown to the other in less than 15 minutes....i've done it several times....actually even from the Santa Fe garage over to the art musem. Why? For the hell of it to see how long it would take in the middle of the day on a weekday.

And don't preach to us whle you're still in school bud. Whatever definition you're learning this week doesn't give you the experience to "teach" everyone on your opinions. You aren't even old enough yourself to be considered a "sustainable" project yet.

Bomber, what is your experience then, on all of these matters? I'm curious where you're coming from, because you've never put together a coherent sentence in all the years I've been reading your posts, and furthermore, I can always just vaguely tell what you mean. For instance, it's 6th Street, not 5th Street in Austin. Also, we're not doing a "trolly" in OKC, and I actually wince when I see it called that.

And most importantly, all I suggested was that you consider the concept of sustainability more than you do. You don't consider things, let alone actual concepts. What does your above rant have to do with sustainability? That's what I suggested you consider. Why so cranky? That, I do not understand. I've gone out of my way to not "lord" my educated perspective over other people on this forum, but you make it hard sometimes.

I'm too young to be a sustainable project myself? What does that even mean? Do you even know what sustainability means? I don't even understand your jokes, just as I don't understand your "facts." They're always about one block off or so...

You are incredulous. I have a long-standing habit of ignoring most people that make an issue out of me being in my 20s, or that I first became active on forums when I was like 13, but you're really bringing it out of me right now because you're impossible to take seriously. All you do is bitch. You have no logistical, academic, theoretical, or even physical experience with the urbane. I remember discussions about Uptown that you'd used to ruin because all you can talk about is how much you hate dealing with the slow drivers on 23rd Street.

You're way out of it in this discussion as well. Nobody is debating you. We would all love to see more local retail over chains. No, none of us are begging Old Navy to come to downtown, don't worry. We've all been frustrated about the state of downtown retail for years. It turns out there are reasons why it is difficult to develop a retail scene. And by the way, being with a mile isn't not going to assist in developing a critical mass of retail. Retail relies on being much closer than that. Even in the suburbs, which you clearly understand more than downtown, you never see 89th and Western marketed as "walking distance" to I-240 and Western, and yes that's only a mile on the same street. That's just the way it is, and yes, downtown is a region that is more than a square mile large. It's just a very dense square mile where every street has some focus on it.

I believe that info made my arguement for me. I don't see a huge national presense in those areas....mostly local.

Cough Cough.

WHAT POINT??? What are you arguing? Who is arguing against you? What are you smoking, as well?? Right now I see you trying to draw attention to some non-existent argument (stating the obvious, local would be cool) that you're trying to make by pissing all over others and pretending to disagree with everything presented in this thread, including cold-hard facts, when in fact you have no f'ing clue what you are talking about. Please let the knowledgeable people go back to discussing...

P.S. It's "argument" and "presence" ... spelling, learn it.

P.P.S. Have you ever even been to the retail area on 6th Street? It's quite isolated from the main hotspot area of 6th Street, which is way on the other side of downtown across Congress. This is actually west of Lamar mostly. It's a very compact area that is all within 1, 2 blocks of the other shops. In fact, REI and BookPeople are even in the same building, which is right across from the most glorious Whole Foods ever. If anything it goes against your irrelevant point that you can walk all of downtown in 15 minutes, somehow pertaining to retail development?? And are you really suggesting OKC could possibly emulate Austin's prevalence of local establishments? It's a cultural thing. Please, be my guest, start a "Keep OKC Weird" campaign or come up with an even better slogan of your own, if you're so witty, eh? But keep in mind that OKC is the city that Walmart formerly used as its official "test market" for new supercenters. Okies desperately need to be weened off their chains...by the way, don't you shop for groceries at Walmart or something?

[Spartan]

Is the Bindery a conceptual drawing or is this actually going to happen?

Well, those are more advanced renderings than they previously had up on their website for the Bindery...I don't know how relevant that is or not though.

[metro]

Where is the Bindery project going (address)?

The bindery is an existing building on the SW corner of 10th and Oklahoma. It is a remodel/ addition.

[MikeOKC]

(Everything he wrote)

[Architect2010]

Some of you get so obsessed over an internet discussion board. This stuff is top notch entertainment.

[Kerry]

Some of you get so obsessed over an internet discussion board. This stuff is top notch entertainment.

If you think this is good - just wait for the movie.

BTW - REI is a national chain. They are in 30 states.

[MikeOKC]

If you think this is good - just wait for the movie.

BTW - REI is a national chain. They are in 30 states.

Kerry, If I read Nick right he was writing about how chains and local shops can co-exist even in the same building and then there's even a Whole Foods across the street. He was responding to the bomber guy who said that there weren't chains on Sixth Street.

[Kerry]

Kerry, If I read Nick right he was writing about how chains and local shops can co-exist even in the same building and then there's even a Whole Foods across the street. He was responding to the bomber guy who said that there weren't chains on Sixth Street.

Yes I know. That works in Austin because they have 50,000 students living 10 blocks away and who know how many thousands of downtown residents. OKC can wait for rooftops to drive retail but we will have to wait 20 or 30 more years. If we want downtown retail (on any kind of meaningful level) while most of us are still alive we are going to have to do it with national chains in a single owner shopping district.

I don't know if you have seen the news about the Lawton Town Center today but they are breaking ground on a downtown shopping center that will have up to 50 national chains. I am sure they will also attract some local retail but there is no mistake that national chains are going to drive it. They are even talking about connecting the new downtown shopping center to Ft Sill via a streetcar.

http://newsok.com/major-retail-devel...rticle/3556081

[MikeOKC]

Yes I know. That works in Austin because they have 50,000 students living 10 blocks away and who know how many thousands of downtown residents. OKC can wait for rooftops to drive retail but we will have to wait 20 or 30 more years. If we want downtown retail (on any kind of meaningful level) while most of us are still alive we are going to have to do it with national chains in a single owner shopping district.

I don't know if you have seen the news about the Lawton Town Center today but they are breaking ground on a downtown shopping center that will have up to 50 national chains. I am sure they will also attract some local retail but there is no mistake that national chains are going to drive it. They are even talking about connecting the new downtown shopping center to Ft Sill via a streetcar.

http://newsok.com/major-retail-devel...rticle/3556081

I agree with you completely. I only posted what I did because you posted that REI was a national store in 30 states. I thought you wrote that because you read Nick's post as not knowing that REI was a national chain.

Impressive plans in Lawton, btw.

[betts]

Yes I know. That works in Austin because they have 50,000 students living 10 blocks away and who know how many thousands of downtown residents. OKC can wait for rooftops to drive retail but we will have to wait 20 or 30 more years. If we want downtown retail (on any kind of meaningful level) while most of us are still alive we are going to have to do it with national chains in a single owner shopping district.

I don't know if you have seen the news about the Lawton Town Center today but they are breaking ground on a downtown shopping center that will have up to 50 national chains. I am sure they will also attract some local retail but there is no mistake that national chains are going to drive it. They are even talking about connecting the new downtown shopping center to Ft Sill via a streetcar.

http://newsok.com/major-retail-devel...rticle/3556081

Kohl's, Famous Footwear, Dress Barn, Petco....OKC needs to run away screaming at the thought of any of these national retailers anywhere near downtown. This will end up being and looking like another Belle Isle, I'm guessing. The kind of money per s.f. retailers like this want to spend is not going to create anything we want to put up or emulate.

If someone wants to build an open air shopping mall with stores like Penn Square over east of Bricktown, in the Cotton Gin location or off in a corner of Core to Shore, I'd be OK with it. If a store like Nordstrom or Saks wanted to build a flagship type of store on Reno I'd be excited about it. But, nothing remotely like what I am sure will be built in Lawton.

[Kerry]

This will end up being and looking like another Belle Isle, I'm guessing. The kind of money per s.f. retailers like this want to spend is not going to create anything we want to put up or emulate.

What I have seen so far is very urban and blows away anything I have seen proposed in OKC for at least the last 10 years. Stores pushed out the sidewalk and outdoor seating.

[Spartan]

I think the point is that Lawton has 120,000 people. OKC has more than ten times that.

However, this downtown Lawton project is nothing like Belle Isle. This is a good start for them with downtown revitalization in general, and will go a long ways toward their community retail needs also (recovering sales taxes lost to nearby Wichita Falls).

[betts]

I like the location, and the concept is good. My point is that the rents retailers like these will be willing to pay risk this being one of those projects that looks good on paper and not so much in reality. My point, since were on the AA thread and not the Lawton thread is that we need to avoid settling for these types of "national chains" like the plague.

[bombermwc]

Spartan - blah blah blah. If you don't like me, that's ok. It's not required. We don't have to agree either. That's the beauty of a forum. I'm shocked people have different opinions in the world (sarcasm).

By the way, i no more need to explain my experience than you do. And if only professionals in every field were allowed to comment on each topic here, you and I both know that neither of us would be commenting as much as we do. This forum is where the community comes to discuss topics, which we do. I don't expect you to agree with everything I say, nor do I really care. You have your opinion on how certain things work, i have mine. Personally, I don't pay as much attention to the folks that plaster on every single thread every day, and generally the closer to the 18-19 y/o age, the less I pay attention. Only because they have yet to experience enough of how things work. That's not a comment to you though...i believe you're older than that, if I remember correctly.

But leave the personaly attacks at home. I flung the mud after it got thrown at me. But I'm able to turn around and get back to the discussion at hand and leave personality issues behind. Can you say the same?

It also appears that the retail that is going in the AA area follows what I was purporting. If we could get the CoC to get their project off the ground, it could serve as a great "anchor" in the area. There are so many awesome buildings in that area all the way to 235. The retail for

I know I'll catch some flack for this, but wouldn't a small grocer work great for 1100? And if we're trying to attract more residential to the area, a gas station wouldn't hurt either. Doesn't have to be a large OnCue...just a couple pumps...heck doesn't even have to be on a corner. That's one thing that always bugs me when Im in the CBD; how far you have to go to get to fuel and food. And the fuel is often in the less than pleasant areas.

[Kerry]

I like the location, and the concept is good. My point is that the rents retailers like these will be willing to pay risk this being one of those projects that looks good on paper and not so much in reality. My point, since were on the AA thread and not the Lawton thread is that we need to avoid settling for these types of "national chains" like the plague.

It isn't like local retailers are beating down the door to locate in AA (or anywhere downtown for that matter). The district has existed for 20 years and you can count every retailer during that time on your fingers.

[okclee]

Here is something I read yesterday, I think it adds some good info for this topic with Auto Alley.

http://www.cooltownstudios.com/site/...oltown+Studios

Thursday, April 07, 2011
How should local and national retailers mix?

It’s one of the most commonly asked questions regarding downtowns, “What should the ideal mix of local independent retailers be to regional and national chains?“ First of all, let’s list two instances when chains generally aren’t appreciated.

Is your neighborhood a natural cultural district?
In other words, if the neighborhood organically developed with human-scaled buildings, often in historic districts, and already predominantly consists of local businesses, then keeping it that way not only benefits the immediate residents who prefer it as such, but provides a unique destination for visitors that want to experience the local culture. If they absolutely need to be accommodated, chains can locate in the next neighborhood over, which in a city is within walking distance.

How important is the triple bottom line to your neighborhood or district?
From an ideal triple-bottom-line viewpoint that best benefits the community economically, culturally and environmentally, it would be all locals. See “Locals have 4x economic impact over nationals“. Restaurants could source foods locally. The neighborhood would be better able to retain its own unique cultural identity, see “Keep Austin Weird“.

When are chains actually preferred?
- Scenario #1: Just about every city has a chain-store-oriented district, and that’s where they’re most appreciated. The goal is to keep these big box power centers, strip malls and corporate cultural districts distinct from the natural cultural districts.
- Scenario #2: There are a number of retail types that local indies have difficulty competing at any level. The next section lists when a chain may be more viable.

When are chains more welcome as a neighborhood option vs local indie?
When selling goods that are themselves national brands. Economies of scale are difficult to compete with. However, when a local venue is able to thrive in this category, it’s viewed as an extraordinary community asset.
- Supermarkets/pharmacies vs co-op supermarkets and distributed corner grocery stores.
- Banks vs credit unions.
- Business service providers like cell phone service and shipping vs no real competitors.

When are locals most preferred?
When selling services and experiences that are tailored to the individual.
- Local restaurants, cafes and coffeehouses vs chain restaurants and fast food franchises.
- Personal services (e.g. dry cleaning, salons, gyms, yoga studios).
- Specialty retail and goods that can’t easily be found anywhere else.

[Kerry]

Thanks okclee. I think someone would have a hard time making the case that AA is a 'natural cultural district' in the sense the author intends it.

http://www.cooltownstudios.com/2008/...ural-districts

A natural cultural district is a geographically-defined social network created by the presence of a density of cultural assets in a particular neighborhood. Descriptively, a “natural” cultural district simply identifies a neighborhood that has naturally, organically spawned a density of unique cultural assets - organizations, businesses, participants, and artists - that sets it apart from other neighborhoods.

AA is not 'organic' nor has a density of unique businesses, particiapants, or artist. That is the problem the Automobile Alley Association and the City have been trying to solve for 20 years. But bless their hearts, they keep trying the same approach every year.

[betts]

Oklahoma City has a dearth of downtown retail relative to other cities, even comparable or slightly larger. But I think it's more because we let our downtown die than anything. In most of the cities that have downtown retail, they didn't have a period without any. They've got great old buildings that have always been used for retail. Automobile Alley was dying until a few years ago too, and it's going to take awhile for it to come alive again. As I said, it's going to have to evolve. You are right that to get major retail stores, there has to be a single developer, but that's not going to happen on AA. The buildings are owned piecemeal, and it would take years to acquire enough adjacent property to sell it to major retailers. As I've said, we need a developer to put in a new open air mall downtown to get the kind of retail you're talking about. It could happen, but nobody is exactly falling over themselves to build malls of any sort right now.

[Kerry]

This is what needs to happen in OKC. The City has to find a way to make something like this possible.

http://www.vabeachtowncenter.com/

If Virginia Beach can find away to do it OKC should be able to.