Public safety #1

[rcjunkie]

You say for a fact that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of the total City Employees. WRONG. Just using Police (1,303) and Fire (984) and not counting the Animal Welfare and Court employees those 2 departments alone account for 2,287 of the 4,455. Thats 51.3%, not 45%. When you add in the A.W. and M.C. employees now we're talking closer to 53%, but thats not a fact, only a guess.

I stand corrected, when you add Animal Control and Municipal Courts, it 53% of the employees, and yet Public Safety receives 65% of the General Fund--how is that fair?

[andy157]

The operating budget comes from the General Fund, I assume that pubic safety employees receive a paycheck every other Friday (some on Thursday with direct deposit), plus their negotiated benefits. Which by-the-way, Public Safety budget was increased by over 5 million this fiscal year to cover wage increases and health insurance increases.

You say the operating budget comes from the general fund. Thats a brilliant concept. But so what? It's the departments operating budget, not the employees operating budget.

Oh my, even for someone with 27 years of experience thats quite an assumption you make about Public Safety employees being paid every other Friday. Whats your point? Would you dare assume the same for the employees who work in the Parks and Recreation department as well?

Public Safety is a combination of 4 separate departments with 53% of the employees who work for the City, so again, what's your point? Take the departments with the other 47% and combine them and see what you get.

Did you really mean to say, merit and step increases, since there are no wage increases this year?

[andy157]

I stand corrected, when you add Animal Control and Municipal Courts, it 53% of the employees, and yet Public Safety receives 65% of the General Fund--how is that fair?

I'm sorry, but life's not always fair. Fire Engines, Ladder Trucks, and bunker gear cost more than lawn mowers, weed-eaters, and plastic hard-hats. Don't know what else I could say to make you happy. It's a cruel world.

[rcjunkie]

I'm sorry, but life's not always fair. Fire Engines, Ladder Trucks, and bunker gear cost more than lawn mowers, weed-eaters, and plastic hard-hats. Don't know what else I could say to make you happy. It's a cruel world.

Wages and Benefits are a separate budget item then equipment, Equipment replacement and purchase comes out of the Capitol Budget.
Your never to old to learn.

Have a Nice Day, Be Safe and God Bless!!

"watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

[rcjunkie]

You say the operating budget comes from the general fund. Thats a brilliant concept. But so what? It's the departments operating budget, not the employees operating budget.

Oh my, even for someone with 27 years of experience thats quite an assumption you make about Public Safety employees being paid every other Friday. Whats your point? Would you dare assume the same for the employees who work in the Parks and Recreation department as well?

Public Safety is a combination of 4 separate departments with 53% of the employees who work for the City, so again, what's your point? Take the departments with the other 47% and combine them and see what you get.

Did you really mean to say, merit and step increases, since there are no wage increases this year?

Wages: Compensation received in exchange for labor. Merit and step increases are "WAGES", unless you cheating the system and receiving pay for nothing.

Have a Good Day, keep the trucks clean, watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely!!

[okcsmokeandfire]

Or as everyone else, (City employees,people in the private sector, including small business owners), make better use of the funding they have, spend it wisely, take better care of what they have, make cuts where possible, etc; etc;

Thats all fine and good when people lives are not at stake. If I am not mistaken, and I can assure you that I am not, fire and police have been asked to and have taken budget cuts every year since the OKC bombing in 1995. Thats 14 years of nothing but cuts. The OKC budget dept has enjoyed many years of good times since 1995. Unfortunately, fire and police have been taxed with doing much more with a whole lot less for that same time frame. We have trimmed off the fat many years ago and now each subsequent cut will cut into services offered to citizens.

What else do we cut RC? We have cut our budgets, we have cut staffing, we have cut equipment, we have cut programs, what else. Our equipment is failing miserably.

We have heard from all of the other brilliant scholars on this website. The same old response of tighten your budget and spend wisely, real cute, we have been doing that for some time. Do we close fire stations, police stations, lay off hundreds of fire and police, cant wait for the fallout from that.

When we get a fire alarm, do we just not respond because we dont have the equipment in the proper working order to do so. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

When we get domestics, shootings or stabbings, which by the way they happen every night in this city, do we just not go to provide assistance because we dont have the staffing. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

Its real easy to sit back and say to cut your budget when you have no idea what the fire and police depts do for the citizens. We protect your lives and property with our own lives every day and night, 24/7/365, come rain, snow, blizzard, tornado, flood, fire, bombing, etc. 100 degree days to 0 degree days. Whatever the situation is, we take care of business.

[rcjunkie]

Thats all fine and good when people lives are not at stake. If I am not mistaken, and I can assure you that I am not, fire and police have been asked to and have taken budget cuts every year since the OKC bombing in 1995. Thats 14 years of nothing but cuts. The OKC budget dept has enjoyed many years of good times since 1995. Unfortunately, fire and police have been taxed with doing much more with a whole lot less for that same time frame. We have trimmed off the fat many years ago and now each subsequent cut will cut into services offered to citizens.

What else do we cut RC? We have cut our budgets, we have cut staffing, we have cut equipment, we have cut programs, what else. Our equipment is failing miserably.

We have heard from all of the other brilliant scholars on this website. The same old response of tighten your budget and spend wisely, real cute, we have been doing that for some time. Do we close fire stations, police stations, lay off hundreds of fire and police, cant wait for the fallout from that.

When we get a fire alarm, do we just not respond because we dont have the equipment in the proper working order to do so. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

When we get domestics, shootings or stabbings, which by the way they happen every night in this city, do we just not go to provide assistance because we dont have the staffing. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

Its real easy to sit back and say to cut your budget when you have no idea what the fire and police depts do for the citizens. We protect your lives and property with our own lives every day and night, 24/7/365, come rain, snow, blizzard, tornado, flood, fire, bombing, etc. 100 degree days to 0 degree days. Whatever the situation is, we take care of business.

All I have said is that in times of down economics, everyone has to make do with less. To say that police and fire have taken budgets cuts every year since 1995 is absolutely false. You state that the Police and Fire have had to do more with less, so has the Water Dept., Street Dept., Sanitation Dept., Parks Dept., Building Management, Equipment Services, City Managers Office, Personnel, etc: etc;, so welcome to the club. And despite what some on this thread say, I'm very aware of what the Public Safety Departments do for the citizens, I also know some of the behind the scenes activity within the departments, and I still say they are adequately funded. I also don't think it was a coincidence that these equipment situations only became an issue when it was time for the MAPS3 election. This of course is my opinion.

Have a Great Day and a Better Tomorrow

"look at the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

[andy157]

Wages and Benefits are a separate budget item then equipment, Equipment replacement and purchase comes out of the Capitol Budget.
Your never to old to learn.

Have a Nice Day, Be Safe and God Bless!!

"watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

See there, you have that rare sense that most don't, that keen eye for detail. Thats why you made the ascension to mid-level management and I didn't. Thanks for the lesson.

[andy157]

[/COLOR]

Wages: Compensation received in exchange for labor. Merit and step increases are "WAGES", unless you cheating the system and receiving pay for nothing.

Have a Good Day, keep the trucks clean, watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely!!

See previous post. You have a good day yourself, and remember, mower blades are your friends, so keep em sharp.

[rcjunkie]

See there, you have that rare sense that most don't, that keen eye for detail. Thats why you made the ascension to mid-level management and I didn't. Thanks for the lesson.

No problem andy, glad I could share some of my knowledge with a fellow OKC employee.
Don't give up on advancing in the ranks, your never to old to learn.

"look at the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

[rcjunkie]

See previous post. You have a good day yourself, and remember, mower blades are your friends, so keep em sharp.

I'm retired, do as I please, when I please, so I have a good day every day.

Remember, keep those big red trucks all bright and shiny!!, no one likes a dirty rig!!

[Mikemarsh51]

RL16 was in RL122 until RL122 was inspected and taken off the road. RL16 is now operating out of E106 a 1990 model engine that has been retired from service twice. With that piece of reserve equipment 2/3 of RL16 gear is sitting in the rig room floor, since there is no room to carry the gear.

Junkie could you please elaborate on your theory about how these rigs being worn out relates to the maps vote?

[okcsmokeandfire]

All I have said is that in times of down economics, everyone has to make do with less. To say that police and fire have taken budgets cuts every year since 1995 is absolutely false. You state that the Police and Fire have had to do more with less, so has the Water Dept., Street Dept., Sanitation Dept., Parks Dept., Building Management, Equipment Services, City Managers Office, Personnel, etc: etc;, so welcome to the club. And despite what some on this thread say, I'm very aware of what the Public Safety Departments do for the citizens, I also know some of the behind the scenes activity within the departments, and I still say they are adequately funded. I also don't think it was a coincidence that these equipment situations only became an issue when it was time for the MAPS3 election. This of course is my opinion.

Have a Great Day and a Better Tomorrow

"look at the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

FACT: Our contract was rolled over after the bombing in 1995 and every year since then we have been asked to cut our budget. Ex. The city asked for a 2% budget cut and all we could give them would be somewhere in the 1/2 % range. That is by cutting positions and rigs, changing job descriptions, and the like. The last time I checked that is doing more with less. That is still a cut in the budget even though its not the cut that the city was looking for. Take that same practice times the last 14 years and thats where we are today.

Another example is on the income side that would read "this next fiscal year we the city are predicting a 5% increase in revenues, if the figure comes in at 4% then we have a 1% shortfall instead of 4% more than we had the previous year. Well we are short on money, we need you to cut your budgets again this year by 2 %. See the cycle. Yet, the city has 4% more than the previous year to do business with. Its all in how you interpret the numbers. Take this same practice times the last 14 years and see where we are at.

If fire and police had not been getting the increases in revenue, and as you indicate the other dept. such as public works, parks and recreation, and the like are not getting the funding. That leads me to my biggest question of all. Where in the hell has all of that money been going for the last 14 years or so? All of those fat years, because we have had many of them, until 2009.

I do think that we are in a state of economic downtown and have been the entire year of 2009. I do agree with you that we need to tighten our belts and do more with less, but that is what we have been doing for years. I just dont see how we are going to do that without eliminating services to the public. Services that they are paying for every time they spend money at the grocery store, etc.

[rcjunkie]

FACT: Our contract was rolled over after the bombing in 1995 and every year since then we have been asked to cut our budget. Ex. The city asked for a 2% budget cut and all we could give them would be somewhere in the 1/2 % range. That is by cutting positions and rigs, changing job descriptions, and the like. The last time I checked that is doing more with less. That is still a cut in the budget even though its not the cut that the city was looking for. Take that same practice times the last 14 years and thats where we are today.

Another example is on the income side that would read "this next fiscal year we the city are predicting a 5% increase in revenues, if the figure comes in at 4% then we have a 1% shortfall instead of 4% more than we had the previous year. Well we are short on money, we need you to cut your budgets again this year by 2 %. See the cycle. Yet, the city has 4% more than the previous year to do business with. Its all in how you interpret the numbers. Take this same practice times the last 14 years and see where we are at.

If fire and police had not been getting the increases in revenue, and as you indicate the other dept. such as public works, parks and recreation, and the like are not getting the funding. That leads me to my biggest question of all. Where in the hell has all of that money been going for the last 14 years or so? All of those fat years, because we have had many of them, until 2009.
I do think that we are in a state of economic downtown and have been the entire year of 2009. I do agree with you that we need to tighten our belts and do more with less, but that is what we have been doing for years. I just dont see how we are going to do that without eliminating services to the public. Services that they are paying for every time they spend money at the grocery store, etc.

Again, stating that Police and Fire have had budget reductions every year since 1995 is at best, false.

For the past several years, most revenue increases have went toward the increase in wages (step and merit increases are wages) and the ever increasing cost of health insurance. This fiscal year alone, the increase in wages and health insurance, just for Public Safety Employees was over 5 million dollars.

Theres approximately 4500 city employees, insurance for every employee is at least $10,000 per employee, per year and increasing each year, it's easy to understand where revenue increases are going.

[rcjunkie]

RL16 was in RL122 until RL122 was inspected and taken off the road. RL16 is now operating out of E106 a 1990 model engine that has been retired from service twice. With that piece of reserve equipment 2/3 of RL16 gear is sitting in the rig room floor, since there is no room to carry the gear.

Junkie could you please elaborate on your theory about how these rigs being worn out relates to the maps vote?

I never did say that rigs being worn out related to MAPS. The NOT THIS MAPS supporters tried to make it an issue.
I just question that fact that you state this has been an ongoing problem, yet no one from within the Fire Department voiced their concern until it was time for the election. It definitely appears as though they were trying to make this an issue, when it clearly was not.

"look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely"

God Bless!!

[Mikemarsh51]

Junkie, just because you werent aware of it doesnt mean it wasnt an issue. I hope you can understand that.

[Mikemarsh51]

Hey Steve! What makes an issue news worthy these days?

[rcjunkie]

Junkie, just because you werent aware of it doesnt mean it wasn't an issue. I hope you can understand that.

I understand. If it's as serious as you claim, keep demanding answers and hopefully the press will get involved. I've been wrong before, and I'm sure it wasn't the last time.

Take care and be safe!!

[okcsmokeandfire]

Again, stating that Police and Fire have had budget reductions every year since 1995 is at best, false.

For the past several years, most revenue increases have went toward the increase in wages (step and merit increases are wages) and the ever increasing cost of health insurance. This fiscal year alone, the increase in wages and health insurance, just for Public Safety Employees was over 5 million dollars.

Theres approximately 4500 city employees, insurance for every employee is at least $10,000 per employee, per year and increasing each year, it's easy to understand where revenue increases are going.

I will agree to disagree with you on the budget reductions since 1995.

As for the wages, you are correct that does include step and merit increases.

However, step and merit increases count very little if anything towards the overall budget because in any given year we have personnel who occupy the high as well as the low pay grades in any given rank.

What should be happening is the following:

From year to year, we have personnel who advance from pay grade to pay grade as well as retire from the job. Then we get new hires to complete the cycle. In this scenario the impact to the overall budget is a wash at best, since we have personnel occupying each step in the pay grades from bottom to top and starting at the bottom again.

What is actually happening is the following:

We are lucky at best to get a recruit class to replace these retirees in a timely fashion, which results in very substantial salary savings to the overall city budget. This practice has been going on for well over 15 years.

If we were to have a recruit class ready to hire when we have the retirements to substantiate them, at best we would have a zero impact on the overall budget. As stated earlier, this is not our practice, we let personnel retire, then city mgt. think about it for a year or so, then it takes about 6-9 months after that to get new applicants through the hiring process.

On health insurance topic, I will use your $10,000 per employee this year. Last year, it was $ 9500 per employee. We have approx. 4500 city employees x $500 increase. This equates to about $ 2.25 million in increase to health insurance.

I am finding it really hard to believe that "the so called increase in wages" is going to eat up the remaining $ 2.75 million dollars for this fiscal year. When we have a hiring freeze, many retirements upcoming in this fiscal year, and no increase in wages. Who is getting these increase in wages and compensation? Hmm, I wonder. If no raises or new hires, where does that money go. We already have a rainy fund for the city that tops 10%.

[rcjunkie]

I will agree to disagree with you on the budget reductions since 1995.

As for the wages, you are correct that does include step and merit increases.

However, step and merit increases count very little if anything towards the overall budget because in any given year we have personnel who occupy the high as well as the low pay grades in any given rank.

What should be happening is the following:

From year to year, we have personnel who advance from pay grade to pay grade as well as retire from the job. Then we get new hires to complete the cycle. In this scenario the impact to the overall budget is a wash at best, since we have personnel occupying each step in the pay grades from bottom to top and starting at the bottom again.

What is actually happening is the following:

We are lucky at best to get a recruit class to replace these retirees in a timely fashion, which results in very substantial salary savings to the overall city budget. This practice has been going on for well over 15 years.

If we were to have a recruit class ready to hire when we have the retirements to substantiate them, at best we would have a zero impact on the overall budget. As stated earlier, this is not our practice, we let personnel retire, then city mgt. think about it for a year or so, then it takes about 6-9 months after that to get new applicants through the hiring process.

On health insurance topic, I will use your $10,000 per employee this year. Last year, it was $ 9500 per employee. We have approx. 4500 city employees x $500 increase. This equates to about $ 2.25 million in increase to health insurance.

I am finding it really hard to believe that "the so called increase in wages" is going to eat up the remaining $ 2.75 million dollars for this fiscal year. When we have a hiring freeze, many retirements upcoming in this fiscal year, and no increase in wages. Who is getting these increase in wages and compensation? Hmm, I wonder. If no raises or new hires, where does that money go. We already have a rainy fund for the city that tops 10%.

The $9500 per employee is for fire department, a few years back they negotiated with the City during contract talks and do not participate in the same insurance program as Police/AFSCME/Non-Uniformed. The average cost for Police/AFSCME/Non-Uniformed is over $10,000 per year, plus there's the retired employees (like me) that have health insurance as part or their retirement package.

The increase to this years fiscal budget (2009/2010) to cover the increased cost for wages and health insurance was over $10,000,000.00 dollars, with this type of increase, it's clear where any increased revenue is going. It was almost $5,000,000.00 just for Police and Fire. (Fire 1.4 million, Police 3.5 million)

[andy157]

The title of this thread is Public Safety, which includes Police/Fire/Animal Control/Municipal Courts, there are a few that feel OKC's Public Safety is adequately funded (myself included), and the only ones claiming their underfunded is the few on here that are members of the OKC Fire Department. In my opinion, it sound's/appears to be more about sour grapes and want--want--want and not entirely about need.

RCJunkie it would appear that you and Mr. Couch have differing opinions on staffing issues and whether or not they are adequately funded. According to his statement in the last paragraph of his May 5, 2009 letter to the Council it looks as though the members of the OKC Fire Department aren't the only ones making the claim of underfunded staffing issues when he states;

"The recently approved Ambulance Service Membership
program will take effect in October 2009 and will reduce
the General Fund payment to the Emergency Medical
Services Authority (EMSA) by $3.3 million. A portion
of this funding has been used to balance the FY 2010
budget and the remainder, approximately $2.1 million,
will be set aside in a reserve to serve as a buffer against
the uncertainty that still exists within the economy. As
the economy begins to improve in future fiscal years,
this reserve can be used to fund increased services, such
as those identified in recent studies on Fire and Police
staffing.

[andy157]

Again, stating that Police and Fire have had budget reductions every year since 1995 is at best, false.

For the past several years, most revenue increases have went toward the increase in wages (step and merit increases are wages) and the ever increasing cost of health insurance. This fiscal year alone, the increase in wages and health insurance, just for Public Safety Employees was over 5 million dollars.

Theres approximately 4500 city employees, insurance for every employee is at least $10,000 per employee, per year and increasing each year, it's easy to understand where revenue increases are going.

RCJunkie, I took your advice and looked at the budget. What I found makes me wonder why you complain so much about how expensive Firefighters are. Unless, you sly dog you, your complaining is just a tactic to divert attention away from your old department then I'm thinking Parks and Recreation with it's excessive employee cost may be the problem.

I compared the increases needed for FY/09-10 to fund the pay plan adjustments, step and merit raises, and the increased cost for employee health insurance. The Fire Department with it's 984 budgeted employees required a $1,955,400. increase, which averages out to $1,987.20 per employee. To cover those same increases the Parks and Recreation Department required $2,398.98 for each of it's 203 employees for a total of $486,993. There's your drain on the budget.

[Mikemarsh51]

Andy157- why do you suppose parks employees are so much more costly? Do you think they are " looking at the budget, cutting where they can and spending wisely $400.00 per employee?"

[andy157]

Andy157- why do you suppose parks employees are so much more costly? Do you think they are " looking at the budget, cutting where they can and spending wisely $400.00 per employee?"

I don't know, but thats a good question. Lets ask RCJunkie maybe he knows, he's pretty wired in you know.

[andy157]

Andy157- why do you suppose parks employees are so much more costly? Do you think they are " looking at the budget, cutting where they can and spending wisely $400.00 per employee?"

Looking deeper into the budget I also see where in the F.D. the average employee makes $77,377. per year and the average P & R employee earns $71,109. It's true that a Firefighter will earn $6,268. more than someone in P & R, of course they have to work an extra 832 hours per year to do so. Really when you think about it, if the Firefighters worked 832 hours less like they do in P & R you would have to take out $7,488. in O.T. pay which would bring the average pay for a Firefighter down to $69,889. Just think if the City would put the Firefighters on a 40 hour week like Parks a person mowing grass would make more than a Firefighter. Hows that fair?