Ford Center improvements up for March 4 vote

[Doug Loudenback]

Betts, I am with you about the prospect of not passing this sales tax vote being depressing and I know that you do love Oklahoma City. I don't know if you lived here "before MAPS," though.

Back then, it wasn't easy for the city's leadership to get MAPS passed, even though it happened, and, after that, and after the city started feeling "good" about itself again after decades of the opposite, the city's leadership found that most were willing to continue the investment in making Oklahoma City become what it might become. Tulsa obviously has a different "take" on such things than most voters here came to have ... even though that could change here easily enough. I do see this vote as being in the magnitude you suggest. Those interested in and/or not familiar with the "history" of those pre-and-post-MAPS days might read Lackmeyer & Money's Okc: Second Time Around. They tell the story very well. It is a story that should not be forgotten.

[Decious]

I've been able to get excited about the progress we're making towards becoming a city with more to do. But, if we start moving backwards, I am not sure I want to be here. How many people are there who think like me?

Me.

[Easy180]

What I'm afraid of as well...People voting no to prove a point about subsidizing the wealthy...Seeing everything that Bennett and Aubrey are going through (money, time, media attacks) to bring a team to their hometown and still unwilling to fork out around $5 to help our city get the league's approval

Hard to imagine people not being able to see what hosting the Hornets did for our city even if you didn't attend the games

[CCOKC]

I really think the ad campaign for this needs to de-emphasize the NBA factor and emphasize finishing the Ford Center the way it needs to be finished. If we have a nice facility we need to maintain it and even upgrade it every 10 or so years or it will end up looking like the old Myriad did (and does). When we are just bringing the building up to the standards of arenas being built around the country that don't even have an NBA team and don't stand a chance at getting one (ei Tulsa or Omaha) that should be what the people are talking about. I had my season tickets to the Hornets the first year on the club level and "upgraded" to the lower bowl the second year. I was shocked at how bad the bathroom (as well as the other amenities) on the lower level and almost regretted my decision to move down. Something seriously needs to be done and soon with or without the NBA.

[Easy180]

I really think the ad campaign for this needs to de-emphasize the NBA factor and emphasize finishing the Ford Center the way it needs to be finished.

Agreed....The Ford center needs renovating in general not just for an NBA team...Anyone who attends anything at the Ford will benefit from the renovations

Taking that approach can take out some of the no subsidies for the wealthy folks

We all knew it would need to be upgraded a few years down the road anyway

[Doug Loudenback]

I really think the ad campaign for this needs to de-emphasize the NBA factor and emphasize finishing the Ford Center the way it needs to be finished.

Agreed....The Ford center needs renovating in general not just for an NBA team ... Anyone who attends anything at the Ford will benefit from the renovations. Taking that approach can take out some of the no subsidies for the wealthy folks.

I respectfully disagree because: (1) The timing and emergency associated with this vote is everything about the NBA. While what you say about the needs of the Ford Center is certainly true, no "emergency" exists without the NBA factor. Ugly bathrooms can be endured for a time easily enough as long as they are working and properly serve their function. (2) If the public votes, "Yes," on this, it will likely only do so because of an honest and straightforward approach which respects their intelligence.

The mayor has made clear the reason for the haste. Without that reason, no urgency would exist ... upgrading the Ford Center could just as well wait and be put into the pot with the rest of the Core To Shore stuff. Without that reason being straightforwardly put, the rationale and focus for the vote at this time becomes lost. Very plainly, this vote IS a referendum on the NBA. To call it anything else does not ring true and would/should invite the voters' scorn.

To his credit, the mayor has been straightforward about the reason for the vote at this time and in doing so he has shown respect for the voters. The public may disagree with that reason, but at least the rationale has been plainly put, just as it needs to be. In the City's website at City of Oklahoma City | 2008 News Items :

“Citizens get to decide on March 4 if they want to be an NBA city or not. This is our choice to make, nobody’s making us do this,” said Mayor Mick Cornett.
* * *
Timing for the election is driven by the SuperSonics’ application to relocate to Oklahoma City, which is scheduled to be considered by the NBA Board of Governors in April.

[glennp]

HOT ROD, don't worry about picking on me. I do not get offended because someone disagrees. That is they greatest quality in life to be able to have a voice.

This is my concern, the citizens that so choose to support the SONICS by attending their game is completely up to them. However, my biggest stance is forcing everyone to pay for something they might now use.

I may be to far fetched in my idea, but it goes to those who like liquor by the drink. The tax that was supposed to be earned from drinking alcohol was to be used for public education. Why is it we tax certain people that don't necessarily have children? PLEASE DO NOT THINK I AM AGAINST BETTERING EDUCATION! WE NEED BETTER EDUCATION!

If you can stand back and see the comparison I am trying to make though, I believe it would make more sense to tax a sector of the tourist market because you will have people from Tulsa, Dallas (if the team is good), Wichita, Little Rock, etc.

To say it would not make enough money quick enough is wrong. If the tax increase was passed then it would be like a loan. So the city would take a loan/bond for the payment, and then over the next 15 months pay it off. So I dont see the problem with that. Even if it took then 24 months to pay it back.

About city morale, believe me I am not against getting an NBA team. It would add more entertainment and produce higher returns for business owner’s downtown. I am proud to be born and raised in OKC.

For those who say if we don't pass this tax increase, that Bricktown would fail. That is absurd! Bricktown is and will be hopping for years to come. Simply it is still very much the entertainment district for nightlife in okc. The only thing to make Bricktown fail is developers build something better some other place in the city.

We, the city are making a quick decision that in my opinion could have better been planned if they allowed more time for R&D.

Some of you believe that Cornett knows something we don't because he has talked to the NBA. I DON'T (again my opinion). From past experiences with businesses and politics says to me that if he (the Mayor) gets an approval a few weeks before the meeting of the NBA, then OKC will be the freshest city on their minds.

It is a smart business move. However, my fight and disagreement is not with getting an NBA. It's more how we are going about paying for it.

The people affected by 1 cent tax.

SS Checks
Poverty Individuals (which we were in the top ten highest poverty in 2000)
Unemployment people

Which, if you calculate those people and you will have a large sector of OKC.

Question? How many people commenting in this post actually live in OKC city limits? I realize even if you don't but you shop in okc then you help pay the tax as well. Just a question is all.

Realize, I can be convinced to vote yes. At this point im still not sure its the best way to update the Ford Center (which does need to be done, if they are not planning to build a new arena in 10 years).

Glenn, sorry to sort of pick on you a little, but I do want to respond to your post. I know you are entitled to your opinion and it IS valuable - dont get me wrong. But, I am concerned about your thoughts that you are not considering the big picture. That's all. Anyways...

You mentioned that Bennett and McClendon want the team here. Be glad that that is the case, otherwise the Sonics surely would be going to KC.

You mentioned that Bennett and McClendon want the team here so they should absorb the majority of the cost. Well, wont they? I mean, they've already paid some $350M to purchase the team, and millions of dollars to litigate moving the team to OKC already - with much more millions to litigate going 4-ward. NAME ME ANYONE FROM OKC WHO HAS EVER FOUGHT THIS HARD FOR THE SAKE OF OKC'S IMAGE!!!!!! And, lest us not forget - Bennett and co will have to pay the NBA relocation fee and any settlement that the city of Seattle might be entitled to if they move prior to 2010. I'd say Bennett and Co will surely be out some $500M by the end of this - and even then, they will have to spend more to establish marketing and contracts with the media in the OKC/TUL/Wichita/Others in the region.

Compare this to what OKC has/will spend: $89M for Ford Center, $100M for Ford Center updates (most of which are needed anyways to stay a top arena), $20M for a NBA specific practice facility (which I say we make it a OCU combo facility so more than JUST the NBA will use the facility and try to get corporate sponsorship to take on most/all of this cost anyways and Im sure they will step up; so the $20M figure is worst case). That only equals $209M in city money (most likely will be $200M tho given SOME corporate support for the facility should be expected).

$200M from the city VS $500M+++ from Clay Bennett/Aubrey McClendon's PBC. I'd say OKC is getting a STEAL of a deal from this, especially when you consider that CB was asking Seattle to spend $450M in tax money to keep the Sonics up here (people up here are mad about that, by the way).

As for the increase in the hotel/motel/rental car tax. I had posted to this earlier (perhaps in another thread). Even if we did this, we would NOT be able to collect the dollars needed quick enough. OKC is a very small city (when compared to other major cities) with a small amount of hotel rooms (I think around 14,000 now) and of that only 1,200 would be considered premium/luxury.

Also, OKC's low taxes are a competitive advantage. I do agree that OKC should raise it's taxes a little but I think that differential revenue should be used for more tourism/marketing/convention purposes and NOT for the arena. It will be WAY too little of dollars.


Like I said, I understand and appreciate your concerns but I think they are not well grounded. Your concerns sound mostly like someone complaining from the prospective of not doing research or otherwise 'in-the-know', with perhaps a little hate going on for Bennett/McClendon.

Irregardless if the above is true, you have to agree with me that getting an NBA team is essential for OKC, and that it is a STEAL for OKC to get one (and a top tier arena) for $200M - which is significantly less than other cities and WAY less than the owners will have shelled out to bring you guys top basketball - NBA talent 41 days (58+ days including the WNBA, more if either make playoffs) of the year!!

I think an additional $121M over only 15 months starting next year is a small yet necessary price to significantly move OKC up a knotch. You have to agree with me/us there (from at least a pragmatic prospective considering my arguments above.)

Glenn, I dont disagree with you that we need to address mass transit in the city BUT as was mentioned earlier - we will begin to address that in MAPS III (or we need to MAKE SURE at least the downtown trolley is in there, for starts).

[HOT ROD]

I just think it is a very insignificant amount of money (to the average person) and for a very insignificant time period (only 15 months) for people to be doubting this initiative. It gets a permanent, locally owned team into Oklahoma City.

People are complaining about subsidizing billionaires, do they realize that they are the ONLY people standing up for Oklahoma City??? they are spending $500M of their dollars to bring OKC a team, and would only make $10M-$20M in profit per year. .. that's not a whole lot and as was mentioned, Bennett and Co could SELL OUT oklahoma city and instead take that $500M into a savings account and make more than the amount of profit they'd make with a team. ...

Shoot, I wish it were this easy for us in Seattle. Out taxes last a LOT LONGER and we get a lot more of them. One year, please. This is a non-issue guys. I am certain Cornett got a guarantee from the NBA if the Ford Center is improved. .....

Oklahoma City would own the facilities and they would enhance Oklahoma City. I have said, perhaps the practice facility could be located at OCU and be used for their NCAA team as well as having public viewings. This would make the facility more involved with the Oklahoma City community - and would probably solicit corporate contributions that might offset all of the cost.

Glenn, Bailjumper, others - tell you what,

will you change your vote to YES if I take it upon myself to email the mayor and chamber and propose the above to them?

(the proposal is, the practice facility is located at OCU, would be available to OCU as they become an NCAA team, and have amenities such that the public could come and interact with the NBA team somehow (ie viewings, tours, bball camps, ect), and solicit corporate support to try to offset the facility).

I hope so, because OKC may not be given another chance at a major league team otherwise!

[BailJumper]

I attend events at the Ford center. Last was the TSO just before Christmas. I also attend other concerts and sports events (including the Hornets). The Ford Center is still a very new complex in OKC and millions of our tax dollars were spent to build it. To say (in general) it needs renovations and the bathrooms are unsatisfactory is just crazy.

I supported maps because I remember when Bricktown was an eyesore. However, greed by property owners is what continues to stall Bricktown being what it could be. Throwing more tax dollars at the poblem is not going to change it.

I'm not willingly paying my tax dollars to support another private empire.

If it is such a grand idea then let the business of the NBA pay for it. I'm also sick of the whinners who constantly complain about how boring our city is. I was boen and raised it and I have visited and lived in other cities. I wouldn't want our city to reflect any of them.

[Architect2010]

Is this a sales tax increase of what we already have or an extension? Because if it raises then I could see why some one might want to stay away form this vote...but if its just an extension for 12-15 months then why is evryone freaking out about it? Weve been paying this tax for ever now.... Maps 1, Maps for Kids, and soon Maps3. Its not raising a tax its just like paying what we ae all paying now...

[Doug Loudenback]

Is this a sales tax increase of what we already have or an extension?

It is an extension of the same sales tax in place ... Maps 1, Maps 1A (the 6 month extension which funded the arena), then Maps for Kids. It would commence on January 1, 2009, when Maps for Kids ends.

Bailjumper, I'm not complaining out how boring our city is ... though I do remember how lifeless downtown and Bricktown was before Maps 1 & 1A.

[betts]

Bailjumper, if you think this arena is just fine, then there's really nothing anyone can say. Having gone to NBA games in other cities, and even having gone to the Lloyd Noble Center last week, which is pretty grim in and of itself, I can tell you the Lloyd Noble Center has nicer bathrooms and scoreboard. To me, the Ford Center is like the first house you buy. It's got four walls, and it's new, but the builder skimped on the quality of paint, put in the bare minimum to satisfy code, and when you invite friends over, you wish you'd been able to afford a few upgrades because you hate it when they visit your bathroom or ask to tour the house. But any house is a shell, and any house can be made nicer with nicer flooring, better wood trim, a new paint job on the walls, and perhaps even a Florida room addition. Perhaps you like the neighborhood, or perhaps housing prices have increased to the point that you cannot afford to move. So, you put in the extra money, because you enjoy living in a house that is a little more luxurious, and you like having people over if they're going to ooh and ah over what you did for that price.

That's how I see this. The Ford Center was the best we could afford at the time. New concrete and cinder blocks (although the concrete is now cracked and stained), is not the same as new terrrazo and some sheetrocked or paneled walls. It gets dingy. Maybe we can afford a few skyboxes to impress the visitors that come for the NCAA Tournament, and the Big Twelve Tournament. It's conceivable we could lose the Big Twelve Tournament if our arena continues to age and compares badly with the Sprint Center. Kansas City would love to have an exclusive agreement to have the Big Twelve basketball tournament there, and perhaps the Big Twelve officials would be swayed by the significantly nicer arena. I'm just speculating, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

The NBA will not pay for these upgrades because they do not have to. There are other cities that will. Kansas City and Las Vegas specifically, and others possibly. What does Oklahoma City have that can recommend it over those cities? Owners who actually might be generous enough to Oklahoma City to bring a team here when they might even lose money on the team. There's no guarantee that Oklahoma City will be a gold mine. They already know it will cost the $30 million to bring the team here as a relocation fee, in addition to the $350 million they spent on the team to purchase it. If you don't live in New York, Chicago, Houston or one of the really large cities, there is no guarantee an NBA team will even break even. You can only hope that prices continue to appreciate so that when you sell it you make enough money to justify your incredibly low return or losses over the time you've owned it. So, the owners might have money, but this will not make them significantly more. They could make a lot more money investing in other things. To my way of thinking, that makes bringing a team to Oklahoma City a quasi philanthropic deed. I think most of the owners are invested in helping Oklahoma. Bob Howard is the money behind Banta and the Midtown Renaissance. Tom Ward is choosing to renovate the Kerr McGee building and bring Sandridge there, and that was a conscious decision to help downtown OKC. Clay Bennett has worked tirelessly to bring the Olympic Festival here, the Hornets here, improve Fair Park which brings horse shows and events here. They've donated to schools, given to OU. I don't see this as a selfish thing, personally.

I'm one of the whiners who says there's not enough to do here. Sorry, but NBA basketball is one of the funnest things my family has done around here in a long time, and we decidedly feel the lack. My kids would honestly tell you they moved to Atlanta and Chicago (one is in Tokyo, but that's Navy business, not a personal choice) because they liked the entertainment and retail, as well as the big city atmosphere better there. Half their friends have moved away for the same reason. I do not see losing college graduates to Dallas, Chicago and Atlanta as a good thing.

If we don't get an NBA team, I don't see what is going to keep this city moving forward. We used to have the prospect of getting an NBA team as one of the things that made it look like this was a city on the rise. But, if we're a city that passed on an NBA team because they wanted a $20 million dollar practice facility and nicer locker rooms in our substandard arena, we're old news and a has been. I find it hard to believe the rest of the country will see it differently. The Ford Center will continue to looker older and tired every year, and we will have each personally saved a penny on every dollar for 18 months. I can't even buy a cup of coffee a day with what I will save.

[OKC PATROL]

Anyone with half a brain would realize the significance of this tax(sorry for being so blunt) and how important it is to pass it. If we as a society cant individually shell out just a few bucks a year for a much higher quality of life, then there needs to be some kind of BIG RALLY for this particular tax to keep the momentum going in the city. I have heard many (not just on this forum) worry about the general idea that OKC is just going to "tax the public again". These people dont fully understand the big picture or have not been given enough positive info to be informed of the huge impact it will have. The same people really dont FULLY understand what Maps has done...the less noticeable improvements (believe it or not) like the civic center/library/river.....I call these people the Ford Center/Canal people. Others are usually bohemians that dont care about what they call "just basketball". These nitwits might go to the polls, just to make a silly personal point to the government (people with more time on their hands and also something to do to feel a sense of self importance) and dont have the foresight to see the advantages of the NBA in OKC.
Were talkin' pennies...The image/national spotlight/revenue/higher quality of life/private investment/entertainment...ect...ect...is a big factor why a small market city, like OKC, will be able to bring in more young professionals and attract more private businesses. This tax will give the Ford Center/Canal people better jobs ect.. in the near future and they need to be informed of these benefits. The major has an incredible vision, is obviously very progressive and only wants the best for the city. The decision for the upgrades/practice facility tax are needed and is a great play to secure a permanent Major League team...REPEAT...THE MAJOR LEAGUES....CALLED THE NBA.
The sector of people that usually have more money than others and voted yes for Maps, think this tax will just roll along like the other taxes in the recent past. Because of this reason the same people might not show up at the polls out of pure laziness. A grassroots effort is needed and a major campaign to keep these people who voted yes on all the other taxes, an incentive to make a genuine effort to go to the polls and vote yes. I was talking with a close relative/friend about this just last night. This person is wealthy and didnt know of the upcoming tax because it was tossed out like dice by the major. After I said one sentence "Upgrades to the Ford will help secure the NBA" this individual is now going to make time out of a typical busy day to vote. The major played poker with a tax.....it has a very short amount of time to encourage citizens to vote yes. A group needs to be quickly formed to generate excitement for the tax to possibly thwart the nincompoops who want to save pocket change. The same voting ninnies who would most likely pay more for gas to just drive to the polls to vote no.

[Midtowner]

It's not national recognition. Think INTERnational.

I called tech support for something and the Indian on the other side of the phone wanted to know whether Oklahoma was somewhere in California... seriously.

People all over the world know and follow the NBA. This is the sort of thing that can promote your city's positive image globally.

Once global business sees the value of Oklahoma for investment, I think this state will catch on in a big way. The NBA can be great for the whole state. Oklahoma City needs to do what it does best -- show the state why we are the capitol city.

Let's continue to lead the state by reeling in the state's first major league team.

[Kerry]

Glennp - arguning over the funding mechanism is missing the point. The discussion on what kind of tax to propose has already taken place and decided. The city choose to go with an exension of an existing 1 cent tax to fund the Ford center improvments. Now you can either support the effort or not - that is up to you, but dicussing alternative tax methods in relation to this vote is really a non-issue.

From every standpoint a sales tax is by far the best way to raise revenue. People are taxed according to what they spend, which ususally coincides to their income, but ultimatley, the consumer has the choice to pay the tax or not and how much they are willing to pay. Plus, people under the poverty level and senior citizens can get a full refund just by asking for it (a part I really don't like).

I suspect that taxing retail sales in OKC will raise far more money from out-of-towners than hotel/motel tax would. Think how many peope from outside the OKc city limits spend money in OKC. Compare this with how many people spend the night in a OKC hotel. Plus, with hotel /notel tax the city has to pay interest on the loan, with a sales tax the city collects interest. on page 10 in my "Big Book of Money Management" it says it is better to receive interest than pay interest.

[jbrown84]

OMG

It's ONE CENT people! One cent that you've been paying for over 10 years. Don't hold this city back over some ridiculous libertarian principle.

[OU Adonis]

Maybe OKCTalk should start a group to drum up support for a vote? We have some time before the election.

[CCOKC]

I'd be willing to help. I just want to convince the people who are against this that it is a benefit to everyone, not just NBA fans or concertgoers. Reading the skyscraper site earlier I was reminded that the Ford Center was one of the most profitable arenas in the world just a few years ago. That didn't even include the basketball team I believe. She has definitely earned her keep since she opened. It would be a pity to lose the big concert events to Tulsa and the new BOK Center.

[betts]

It's one cent for 15 months. I spend more on my morning coffee at Starbucks in a few months than this will cost me in 15.

I contacted the mayor's office about volunteering, and was referred to the Chamber of Commerce. I was told the Chamber was going to need volunteers after the first of the year to help with this, but haven't heard back from them.

[Saberman]

I was flipping through the channels last night, on local Access channel, the Mayor was on explaining the improvements to the FC. Not all of the improvements are about the NBA, but about upgrading the FC to make it more appealing for other events as well.

Too many people are looking at this as welfare for the rich, "I don't go to games, so why should I pay", welcome to the real world, I don't have children but I still pay for schools. It's about the betterment of our community. Cities are providing facilities to businesses all over the country to entice companies and sports franchises to their communities.

You may not like basketball, but it may help to bring in businesses to our area that do directly effect you, as well as new sales tax revenue Business are looking at growing communities to become apart of the growth.

I would be in favor of making the MAPS sales tax a semi-permanent tax. Have a non-paid committee that oversees projects that are vote on by the people. Rotate the committee members every 2-5 years. Then we could fund projects all over the city. Would not act as permanent fund to maintain existing projects, new projects only.

1. Core to Shore
2. Sidewalks w/ bike paths on all major streets.
3. Build community centers.
4. Future mass trans system.
The possibilities are endless

Is that really to much to pay on a pay as you go program. Todays project may not help you but the next one may.

[metro]

Not sure if anyone caught this horrible article by Stacy Swan in the Journal Record a few days ago. Very tacky journalism only pushing her agenda and not both sides to the story. Another reason I don't subscribe to the local newspapers. Make sure and read the viewers comments!!!

The Journal Record - Article

[metro]

Here are the email addresses to the writer of the article, publisher, and editor in case you want to voice your opinion for the one-sided article.

stacy.swan (at) journalrecord.com
ted.streuli (at) journalrecord.com
mary.melon (at) journalrecord.com

[jbrown84]

Well clearly it's an op-ed, so she has the right to express her opinion, but what I got from the piece is that she's completely ignorant of the situation. If you've been paying even a remote amount of attention to the Sonics developments, you would know better than to say "what's he gonna do, take it to Denver?? Hardy har har..."

Clearly she's not been following the situation and is just now jumping in because she feels that she's being taken advantage of it. Frankly, I'm shocked that our business journal published such an anti-progress column.

[ChamberCyn]

I'd be willing to help. I just want to convince the people who are against this that it is a benefit to everyone, not just NBA fans or concertgoers. Reading the skyscraper site earlier I was reminded that the Ford Center was one of the most profitable arenas in the world just a few years ago. That didn't even include the basketball team I believe. She has definitely earned her keep since she opened. It would be a pity to lose the big concert events to Tulsa and the new BOK Center.

It's one cent for 15 months. I spend more on my morning coffee at Starbucks in a few months than this will cost me in 15.

I contacted the mayor's office about volunteering, and was referred to the Chamber of Commerce. I was told the Chamber was going to need volunteers after the first of the year to help with this, but haven't heard back from them.

For those who want to help with the campaign - I work at the Chamber and we are gearing up for a big effort and we are going to need the help of everyone on this board who is committed to keeping OKC's momentum going. We will begin contacting/coordinating volunteer activities around mid month, so keep the faith - you don't see us yet but there is prep work in motion. Feel free to email me your name and contact info and we will be back with you in just a few days!

[metro]

ChamberCyn: Feel free to email me your name and contact info and we will be back with you in just a few days!

Hey ChamberCyn, perhaps you can post your email so we can email you contact info?