I240 Revitalization Efforts

[bchris02]

And directly south of Memorial and the turnpike are some the worst neighborhoods/apartments in OKC. Your comparison doesn't wash. Many people are not particularly enamored of some of the developments along the Kilpatrick.

122nd and Penn is a blight on what otherwise is a great area. Outside of those apartments, that part of town is pretty good. It's my opinion they should just bulldoze them and eradicate the problem before it spreads to the surrounding neighborhoods.

Question for you. What don't you like about the development along Kilpatrick?

[ljbab728]

122nd and Penn is a blight on what otherwise is a great area. Outside of those apartments, that part of town is pretty good. It's my opinion they should just bulldoze them and eradicate the problem before it spreads to the surrounding neighborhoods.

Question for you. What don't you like about the development along Kilpatrick?

You are obviously not that familiar with the area. You might want to try looking around the area along Britton Road and near Western. The apartments along I240 and other areas to the north have nothing on that area. Some of the development along the Kilpatrick is nice surburban development and some of it is typical throwaway development which you can find anywhere. I think many are hoping for something better and more urban along the I240 corridor.

[Easy180]

It's good to see some pro-activeness considering the I-240 corridor. It has declined but its not so far gone it can't be easily revitalized. I think getting rid of the run-down, outdated apartment complexes along I-240 will go a long ways. It would be cool if it could become something similar to how Memorial Rd/Kilpatrick Turnpike is on the north side. That corridor is adjacent to the fast growing SW OKC (West Moore) area so there is a lot of potential. The problem is directly north of I-240 are some of the worst neighborhoods in OKC.

74th to 59th is still somewhat hanging in there which could be bolstered by a revitalization of 240

[bombermwc]

I'll have to diagree with bchris on the neighborhood statements. The area north of 240 is NOT the worst in OKC. I can rattle off a large number of areas that are far worse, and if you drive around, you'll see how wrong you are. It does, however, get more rough once you get up to 44th. But the same can be true of any area....a few miles in any direction is a big difference. A few miles from Gallardia gets you 122nd and Penn.....some of the worst statistical gang-land in OKC.

[SoonerDave]

The problem is directly north of I-240 are some of the worst neighborhoods in OKC.

I think this paints waaaay too broad a brush for I-240. Incorrectly conveys this notion that the entire stretch is some sort of desperate, crime-ridden area, which simply isn't true. I drive that corridor every day.

Are there some less than four-star apartment complexes in that area? Absolutely. I would say that the worst of them are "clotted" in a strangely gnarled street arrangement that starts where SW 74th and the I-240 service road splits west of Penn, and then goes west to May. In that area, too, is a nasty old motel that gets mentioned in the news way too often. And the north side of I-240 in that same area around May hosts an empty former Albertson's location, in front of which there's a sign indicating a desire to subdivide/rework a la Palagio on SW 104th and Penn, and there's an apartment complex immediately north of there that is maybe marginally better than the one along SW 74th.

But tracing the area immediately north of I-240 between May and Penn reveals the Walnut Creek golf course and country club, including the pending construction of a new clubhouse, and then a decent but not thriving shopping center that includes Hobby Lobby, Big Lots, Conn's, and Olive Garden. I think Hobby Lobby has done a lot to perk up that center, actually. On the south side of I-240 east of Penn is the old Southern Hills Shopping Center that is approaching full occupancy, with a Starbucks in an outparcel, an electronics resale place (CDR), a fabric store, a PetsMart, and a Mazzios, with one of the other outparcels being remodeled and given an exterior facelift.

Keep going east, and you'll find decent retail names like McDonald's, Office Depot, Staples, and Lowe's in fairly short order. Is it perfect? Of course not, hence the ideas being circulated to revitalize it. But to cast this notion that its "some of the worst in OKC" is simply unfair and inaccurate. South OKC has to work hard enough to overcome the predispositions many hold for it without perpetuating inaccuracies like this.

[Zuplar]

I think this paints waaaay too broad a brush for I-240. Incorrectly conveys this notion that the entire stretch is some sort of desperate, crime-ridden area, which simply isn't true. I drive that corridor every day.

Are there some less than four-star apartment complexes in that area? Absolutely. I would say that the worst of them are "clotted" in a strangely gnarled street arrangement that starts where SW 74th and the I-240 service road splits west of Penn, and then goes west to May. In that area, too, is a nasty old motel that gets mentioned in the news way too often. And the north side of I-240 in that same area around May hosts an empty former Albertson's location, in front of which there's a sign indicating a desire to subdivide/rework a la Palagio on SW 104th and Penn, and there's an apartment complex immediately north of there that is maybe marginally better than the one along SW 74th.

But tracing the area immediately north of I-240 between May and Penn reveals the Walnut Creek golf course and country club, including the pending construction of a new clubhouse, and then a decent but not thriving shopping center that includes Hobby Lobby, Big Lots, Conn's, and Olive Garden. I think Hobby Lobby has done a lot to perk up that center, actually. On the south side of I-240 east of Penn is the old Southern Hills Shopping Center that is approaching full occupancy, with a Starbucks in an outparcel, an electronics resale place (CDR), a fabric store, a PetsMart, and a Mazzios, with one of the other outparcels being remodeled and given an exterior facelift.

Keep going east, and you'll find decent retail names like McDonald's, Office Depot, Staples, and Lowe's in fairly short order. Is it perfect? Of course not, hence the ideas being circulated to revitalize it. But to cast this notion that its "some of the worst in OKC" is simply unfair and inaccurate. South OKC has to work hard enough to overcome the predispositions many hold for it without perpetuating inaccuracies like this.

I agree 100%. Southwest OKC is becoming to developed with nice new homes, and letting this area go would just continue to drive these shoppers elsewhere.

[adaniel]

OKC is the type of place where you can't make sweeping generalizations about an entire side of town. There are some very nice areas north of 240.

SoonerDave, did you you mean Willow Creek? I agree with you though that is a very nice neighborhood. I actually got lost one day and found that place. I would live there in a heartbeat, although I'm a sucker for mid-century architecture. In fact, I would say the vast majority of the area south of 44th is tidy working to middle class neighborhoods. Sure there's plenty of decaying commercial strips and ratty apartment complexes, but that's how OKC rolls unfortunately.

Heck, even my parents old stomping grounds of Wildewood in the terrible, crime filled northeast side is actually made up of very nice, owner occupied homes and large, oak filled lots.

In any event, I'm glad to see that 240 is getting its act together. Just cleaning up some of the apartments would do wonders for that corridor.

[bombermwc]

Repave the frontage roads though, PLEASE!

[SoonerDave]

OKC is the type of place where you can't make sweeping generalizations about an entire side of town. There are some very nice areas north of 240.

SoonerDave, did you you mean Willow Creek? I agree with you though that is a very nice neighborhood. I actually got lost one day and found that place. I would live there in a heartbeat, although I'm a sucker for mid-century architecture. In fact, I would say the vast majority of the area south of 44th is tidy working to middle class neighborhoods. Sure there's plenty of decaying commercial strips and ratty apartment complexes, but that's how OKC rolls unfortunately.

Heck, even my parents old stomping grounds of Wildewood in the terrible, crime filled northeast side is actually made up of very nice, owner occupied homes and large, oak filled lots.

In any event, I'm glad to see that 240 is getting its act together. Just cleaning up some of the apartments would do wonders for that corridor.

Yes, but many years ago it was "Walnut Creek" and the name stuck in my head.

I really think part of the "revitalization" of that area is going to have to take the routing of SW 74th at May Avenue into consideration. That is part of what has created that "island" of nasty hotels/gas station/really bad apts. Not quite sure how you fix that part of it, but I think it needs to be a big part of the update. If that nasty motel, the chronically defunct former Sinclair gas station in that "island," and even that first block of apts to the east could magically go away it sure would be a bonus, but I don't know how that can happen. I wonder what kind of occupancy rate those apts immediately east of Motel Nasty (Cambridge Inn, I think, or at least it was at one point??) are experiencing?

And, yes, bombermwc, they need to repave the frontage roads!

[ljbab728]

An update from the Mayor's Development Roundtable:

Oklahoma City planners see future retail tied to neighborhoods | News OK

[MWCGuy]

I think 240's ramps need to be reworked.

May full service
Penn Enter Only East/West Bound (Too Many Close calls from both off ramps)
Western full service
Close Walker (Too Many close calls especially on the on/off in front of David Stanley)
Santa Fe Full Service
Close Shields (The ramps are too dangerous from all directions)

Repave/widen the service roads running each direction between Shields and May. Post new signage showing how to access the streets like the new stretch of I-40.

[catch22]

They need to put the off ramps one street away from the actual arterial. For example, going west on I-240 you'd get off just after Western Ave. to get off on Penn. This would put traffic on the service road sooner and keep away last second lane changes to access the strip malls from being dangerous. The on ramps would be one mile down. To get on westbound from Western the actual on ramp would be right before the Penn bridge.

[Plutonic Panda]

They need to put the off ramps one street away from the actual arterial. For example, going west on I-240 you'd get off just after Western Ave. to get off on Penn. This would put traffic on the service road sooner and keep away last second lane changes to access the strip malls from being dangerous. The on ramps would be one mile down. To get on westbound from Western the actual on ramp would be right before the Penn bridge.

That would do wonders, but wouldn't they have to make the highway below grade for this to work efficiently, none the less, I'd still be for it and actually prefer this particular stretch to be below grade.

[catch22]

That would do wonders, but wouldn't they have to make the highway below grade for this to work efficiently, none the less, I'd still be for it and actually prefer this particular stretch to be below grade.

No? You're just moving the ramps. Instead of the on ramp being right after the intersection, it would be a street down right before the next intersection. Off ramps, instead of dumping traffic right into the intersections, would dump traffic just after the intersection.

[Plutonic Panda]

No? You're just moving the ramps. Instead of the on ramp being right after the intersection, it would be a street down right before the next intersection. Off ramps, instead of dumping traffic right into the intersections, would dump traffic just after the intersection.

Ah, I see ok. Makes sense now.

[catch22]

Ah, I see ok. Makes sense now.

Here's an example of what I mean, these are common in Austin.



And then closer up view of that mile:




I doubt they even have considered using these in Oklahoma, to me they make sense.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yes, the North Dallas Tollway is like that. It is an excellent highway and a good example of what a great highway system is. The highway is 6 lanes and has a six lane service road (one way 3 lanes each direction) and I know you didn't like that idea, but the ramps flow right onto the service roads and there is an exit every other road(sometimes the same) and same for entry. It is very nice. Hopefully they will build a nice interchange for the I-35/240 junction as well.

[Spartan]

Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.

This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.

[catch22]

Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.

This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.

Yes I agree with this, the only thing I have seen mentioned regarding the actual transit infrastructure from the leaders of this project have been beautification efforts along the 240 corridor.

[Spartan]

Yes I agree with this, the only thing I have seen mentioned regarding the actual transit infrastructure from the leaders of this project have been beautification efforts along the 240 corridor.

Which also aren't going to make it easier for you (generally speaking) to blaze past strip malls at 50 mph. So if that's "the life" in a decade or so you'll need to go to Moore.

I am beginning to believe Envision 240 may actually be the kind of progressive vision to reposition this important corridor to sustain success for decades to come and ward off the urban blight process that is beginning to circle around.

Let's talk about that, the real issues.

[catch22]

My main concern with the highway through the corridor is the fact that it is dangerous, with the previous level of planning that went into it.

People get off the highway, slam on their brakes and try to dart across to the far lane, to make the nearest entry to the strip mall, instead of slowing down gradually and merging into the lane and taking the second entrance to the strip mall....

I'd be all for reducing highway access to that corridor to every other arterial, and making better use of city streets to move traffic around.

Since I know you are in this field and I do want your opinion about what could be done for this area?

I am having a difficult time envisioning exactly what can be done. Are we talking about urbanizing suburbia?

[Plutonic Panda]

Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.

This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.

Is ODOT responsible for the service roads as well?

[Spartan]

My main concern with the highway through the corridor is the fact that it is dangerous, with the previous level of planning that went into it.

People get off the highway, slam on their brakes and try to dart across to the far lane, to make the nearest entry to the strip mall, instead of slowing down gradually and merging into the lane and taking the second entrance to the strip mall....

I'd be all for reducing highway access to that corridor to every other arterial, and making better use of city streets to move traffic around.

Since I know you are in this field and I do want your opinion about what could be done for this area?

I am having a difficult time envisioning exactly what can be done. Are we talking about urbanizing suburbia?

We are talking exactly about urbanizing suburbia, or to employ a buzz phrase, "retrofitting suburbia" (check out the Ellen Dunham-Jones book on this). I am not with OKC's Planning Dept so I can't speak to their goals beyond being a native southsider, but it is my understanding that they are very serious about this process. I was initially very skeptical and even callous toward the idea of a redevelopment focus on 240 because I feel it's needed more in Capitol Hill, and not on the suburban corridor that was eventually the death knell for Capitol Hill.

That said, I think that for anyone who is skeptical that interesting, progressive things could happen here, there is solace that this seems to be a very serious endeavor with all options on the table. There are easy fixes and there are harder fixes, just as there are public fixes and private fixes for this corridor. I think 240 would make a great BRT corridor, which in particular is a transit mode that I hope to not see anywhere else in OKC.

An easy public fix, so in other words a first step, has to be limiting ingress and egress. I know exactly what you are talking about along the 240 service road, primarily at Penn, but also at other interchanges. That Schlotzsky's curb cut to the right about 100 yards ahead of the westbound offramp is a true menace - as long as traffic isn't already backed up all the way to the offramp from another accident or rush hour traffic.

Many other high volume sprawl corridors where the infrastructure is over-capacity have taken to proactively limiting ingress and egress, and not just eliminating left turn opportunities, but also limiting right turn opportunities so that to enter a pad site you have to go all the way to the light and then navigate through a development. It's kind of insane for Oklahoma City to allow every single pad site to have ample access to the main frontage road as a standalone development (when it's not, by definition of being a pad site).

Without even talking about truly retrofitting suburbia, here is an excellent example of a seriously over-capacity strip mall wasteland in Summit County (Akron area) that most urban planners in Ohio despise:



Without purchasing more ROW for widening the roadway, the city of Cuyahoga Falls just made the best of eliminating most curb cuts. See the bottom side of Howe Road in particular where there are countless pad sites that have no curb cut. This is a cheap, easy way to maximize safety by concentrating turning traffic in expected places, at traffic lights.

So the moral of the story is that even if you don't necessarily want to talk about revolutionizing land use policies and urbanizing certain corridors, reducing curb cuts is a win-win and won't really threaten anyone's sprawly suburban dreamland. I think the Ed Noble Pkwy in Norman is another good example, but not as good.

[jedicurt]

I have been saying this for a long time... i think that we curb cut far too often and allow each developed lot to be completely separate from the others. by limiting curb cuts and making dedicated turn in locations and then connections between lots, you shift the traffic that is just going from shop to shop off of the main road, and are increasing safety, and drive times

[HangryHippo]

I have been saying this for a long time... i think that we curb cut far too often and allow each developed lot to be completely separate from the others. by limiting curb cuts and making dedicated turn in locations and then connections between lots, you shift the traffic that is just going from shop to shop off of the main road, and are increasing safety, and drive times

I hate that we curb cut so often in OKC. I'm all for anything that limits this.