Tiffany Apartments

[Dustin]

I hope it turns out exactly like this. That is sexy.

[Spartan]

Uh no, plupan. I drive on NW Expressway frequently and don't want to see any more driving lanes no matter how they are configured. And I see absolutely no benefit to making the May intersection a traditional stop light intersection.

The NW Expressway stops at Penn, Independence, I-44, Portland, and so on. Why does May have to be a dysfunctional cloverleaf in the most inappropriate place for one?

[Teo9969]

I'm pretty sure May Avenue is the street that is at grade in this situation.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm pretty sure May Avenue is the street that is at grade in this situation.

whatever, same difference

[ljbab728]

The NW Expressway stops at Penn, Independence, I-44, Portland, and so on. Why does May have to be a dysfunctional cloverleaf in the most inappropriate place for one?

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not dysfunctional and is still better for that intersection than having stop lights. Since I live near there I suspect I have a better feel for what works there than you do.

[Teo9969]

I found myself wondering if they changed some of the architecture of this building, particularly the color schemes, based on Dave & Buster's. I was looking at the building and envisioning the way it would look with its surroundings and noticed D&B's in particular and how they would compliment each other.

[Spartan]

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not dysfunctional and is still better for that intersection than having stop lights. Since I live near there I suspect I have a better feel for what works there than you do.

You can't turn left, not that anyone coming from the west needs to get on N. May anyway. And back when you could, the pseudo highway onramps were extremely dangerous. Where exactly do you live, one of the apartment communities w direct frontage, or tucked away in a neighborhood?

My problem is that this interchange is obv designed for the folks who live tucked away in neighborhoods, providing for dispersing cars as fast as possible. There are a lot of people who live in apartments directly fronting this area and in the midst of the traffic patterns swirling around apartments, office plexes, shopping centers, and neighborhoods. NW Expwy and May is a place that just as many people go TO as THROUGH but the problem is the highway design only allows you to go THROUGH.

We talk about wanting to focus on more than just downtown, and that the rest of the city needs the same focus on improvements. It is true that OKC's middle-ring suburban areas are at a crossroads where years of suburban planning have taken their toll and made these places not worth caring about. NW Expwy and May can be different and it can be an urban foothold and it can help strengthen the middle-ring around the city. But if by "we need improvements for the suburbs, too" we mean "we need to double down financially on more failed suburban infrastructure" then no thanks.

[Teo9969]

I tend to agree with Spartan here.

I'm not sure how you address this intersection specifically, but I do know that it is one of the Top 3 to 5 non-core intersections for OKC to figure out. An increase in density and walkability in the LHP/63rd/Villa/50th box would make this one of the premier areas of the city. It's going to take decades to fix, but it has no chance until a viable plan is introduced to address May/Expressway from a Walkability stand point.

[zookeeper]

We can all find something that's not right. May And NW Expressway could use a complete redesign, no question. The cloverleaf was one of the first of its kind in the city and was actually an entrance to OKC from the NW back in the '50s. But with that said...

This is an incredible new development and beats that old Tiffany House sitting empty. I'm glad someone has decided to develop this, and not only develop it, but go to the lengths of making it a destination location. A premiere intersection, close to shopping, hospital, parkway, Penn Square, lots if retail. Get anywhere fast. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, but this looks VERY nice.

[Plutonic Panda]

You can't turn left, not that anyone coming from the west needs to get on N. May anyway. And back when you could, the pseudo highway onramps were extremely dangerous. Where exactly do you live, one of the apartment communities w direct frontage, or tucked away in a neighborhood?

My problem is that this interchange is obv designed for the folks who live tucked away in neighborhoods, providing for dispersing cars as fast as possible. There are a lot of people who live in apartments directly fronting this area and in the midst of the traffic patterns swirling around apartments, office plexes, shopping centers, and neighborhoods. NW Expwy and May is a place that just as many people go TO as THROUGH but the problem is the highway design only allows you to go THROUGH.

We talk about wanting to focus on more than just downtown, and that the rest of the city needs the same focus on improvements. It is true that OKC's middle-ring suburban areas are at a crossroads where years of suburban planning have taken their toll and made these places not worth caring about. NW Expwy and May can be different and it can be an urban foothold and it can help strengthen the middle-ring around the city. But if by "we need improvements for the suburbs, too" we mean "we need to double down financially on more failed suburban infrastructure" then no thanks.

Maybe we agree with turning this interchange into an intersection, but I do agree with you that we should urbanize this area. This should remain less urban and focus more on beautifying it and making it more walkable than it is(mainly adding sidewalks).

It is true that OKC's middle-ring suburban areas are at a crossroads where years of suburban planning have taken their toll and made these places not worth caring about

I think it is lack of suburban planning that caused this area to struggle. I don't know when the last time you were there, but it is a great area that is actually doing fairly well with quite a bit activity going on.

[Teo9969]

Maybe we agree with turning this interchange into an intersection, but I do agree with you that we should urbanize this area. This should remain less urban and focus more on beautifying it and making it more walkable than it is(mainly adding sidewalks).

I think it is lack of suburban planning that caused this area to struggle. I don't know when the last time you were there, but it is a great area that is actually doing fairly well with quite a bit activity going on.

To be sure, adding sidewalks doesn't make an area walkable, and would not solve the problems in this area.

[Plutonic Panda]

To be sure, adding sidewalks doesn't make an area walkable, and would not solve the problems in this area.

huh, maybe not for you, but for me it does.

[Spartan]

huh, maybe not for you, but for me it does.

Excellent rebuttal.

Just to get us back to thoughtful discussion, a development like this fantastic Tiffany House rehab can help refocus our collective energy toward helping this area realize it's destiny as OKC's "uptown." What that means is that we all need to understand this area between Lake Hefner and Penn Square as something other than suburban. When you factor in the nearby Chesapeake area the potential of this area is incredible. It all has to be understand not as suburban but as an evolving piece on the urban transect.

We also need to understand this area as a community with it's own needs, and for far too long answering those has been dictated by those driving out to points further NW. Similarly, I concede that it's also not for the downtown crowd to answer this area's needs - but we need to put decision making for this area in the hands of the multitudes of high rise apartment and condo dwellers and office workers who use this neighborhood. They should be given the ability to harness this area's very high density levels and make something walkable of it.

[Plutonic Panda]

yeah, sorry to say Spartan a sidewalk increases walkability for me. I don't need 20, 2-3 buildings pushed right up against the street for me to want to walk somewhere. If I am going to walk, I am going to walk. If you have to have an urban fabric to do that, than sucks for you.

[Rover]

May from 50th th Wilshire has great potential for walk ability. But it is very difficult to walk or bike it now...in fact, nearly impossible.

[bchris02]

I think that the inner NWX area of OKC could be phenomenal if the right resources were invested into it. Unfortunately however most of the development in that area in the past decade, from Belle Isle to the Penn Square renovation exemplifies the low standards and lack of pride that is the rule of thumb for development in this town, especially outside the immediate downtown core. If the bar gets raised and some cool developments start happening in that area, yes in 10-15 years it could be an excellent "uptown" for OKC.

[zookeeper]

I think that the inner NWX area of OKC could be phenomenal if the right resources were invested into it. Unfortunately however most of the development in that area in the past decade, from Belle Isle to the Penn Square renovation exemplifies the low standards and lack of pride that is the rule of thumb for development in this town, especially outside the immediate downtown core. If the bar gets raised and some cool developments start happening in that area, yes in 10-15 years it could be an excellent "uptown" for OKC. Right now I don't think OKC is large enough to support more than one area with the kind of revitalization we are currently seeing downtown.

Don't tell the people doing it that it can't be done.

[bchris02]

Don't tell the people doing it that it can't be done.

I edited my post. It can be done, but I also think a revitalized inner NWX area should be distinctly different from downtown and not try to directly compete. Doing so would be a mistake being that downtown OKC really hasn't hit that critical mass point yet.

[Teo9969]

yeah, sorry to say Spartan a sidewalk increases walkability for me. I don't need 20, 2-3 buildings pushed right up against the street for me to want to walk somewhere. If I am going to walk, I am going to walk. If you have to have an urban fabric to do that, than sucks for you.

So if I live at these Apartments, you're telling me that the only thing I need to entice me to walk to my job at Home Depot is a path of sidewalks from here to there.

Here are a few major factors that are going to affect the areas walkability:

Speed Limits
Lighting (for nights)
Distance
A variety of ways to get from Point A to Point Z
Points of Interest between Point A and Point Z
Infrastructure
Safety

Throwing sidewalks everywhere does not address all those factors. The fact of the matter is, is that the people who walk in NW OKC do it because they have to.

This development in particular will help increase the density in the area and there are things they could do to make the development more walkable. Cut the 2 or 3 parking spaces that are immediately in front of the entrance and extend and landscape the entire elevated pedestrian area from the entrance to the street…As it is now, the development is blocked by an immediate view of automobiles until you're essentially inside the development.

[Rover]

I edited my post. It can be done, but I also think a revitalized inner NWX area should be distinctly different from downtown and not try to directly compete. Doing so would be a mistake being that downtown OKC really hasn't hit that critical mass point yet.

So let me get this straight...other areas shouldn't revitalize in a quality and urbanized manner because it might compete with downtown? WOW.

Why not let the market keep raising the bar through quality work and intense competition. Competition makes everyone better.

And, the OKC metro area is big enough to have about 10-15 urban center points....about 1 per 100,000 according to most urbanists I've heard and read. This idea that we need ONE is silly. Downtown has its own significant momentum that will only be killed by poor quality development. Protected markets rarely reach their potential but rather just let it be poached.

[Spartan]

yeah, sorry to say Spartan a sidewalk increases walkability for me. I don't need 20, 2-3 buildings pushed right up against the street for me to want to walk somewhere. If I am going to walk, I am going to walk. If you have to have an urban fabric to do that, than sucks for you.

So that's your opinion, but it isn't corroborated by either academic or practical study of cities, no matter how you refute even the need to understand or know about concepts such as walkability, city planning, traffic planning, urban design, or urbanism.

[HangryHippo]

Pete (or anyone else that knows), is this project still moving forward?

[Plutonic Panda]

So if I live at these Apartments, you're telling me that the only thing I need to entice me to walk to my job at Home Depot is a path of sidewalks from here to there.

Here are a few major factors that are going to affect the areas walkability:

Speed Limits
Lighting (for nights)
Distance
A variety of ways to get from Point A to Point Z
Points of Interest between Point A and Point Z
Infrastructure
Safety

Throwing sidewalks everywhere does not address all those factors. The fact of the matter is, is that the people who walk in NW OKC do it because they have to.

This development in particular will help increase the density in the area and there are things they could do to make the development more walkable. Cut the 2 or 3 parking spaces that are immediately in front of the entrance and extend and landscape the entire elevated pedestrian area from the entrance to the street…As it is now, the development is blocked by an immediate view of automobiles until you're essentially inside the development.

The only thing I care about is the infrastructure that would allow me to get to point a to be without having to walk on the road except crosswalks. Don't care about speed limits and that has nothing to do with safety for me as most speed limits are 45mph anyways, a safe speed limit.

[catch22]

Sure, with the right infrastructure, you can physically walk.

The placement of buildings, street design, and a multitude of other factors are psychological. We need to create an environment where people want to walk, because it is enjoyable and physically possible.

[Spartan]

The only thing I care about is the infrastructure that would allow me to get to point a to be without having to walk on the road except crosswalks. Don't care about speed limits and that has nothing to do with safety for me as most speed limits are 45mph anyways, a safe speed limit.

Wait you think 45 mph is a safe speed limit where you can walk if there's (maybe) a sidewalk?