Coffee creek golf course sold for housing?

[Plutonic Panda]

Now is the time to put up or shut up. These folks were so vocal about nothing being built so either they band together and buy the property or understand they live in a major city that is expanding and the current use wasn’t working and developers are charity cases. So if they can’t or don’t want to purchase the property then they need to work with the next developer instead of screaming no at everything.

[MikeLucky]

Now is the time to put up or shut up. These folks were so vocal about nothing being built so either they band together and buy the property or understand they live in a major city that is expanding and the current use wasn’t working and developers are charity cases. So if they can’t or don’t want to purchase the property then they need to work with the next developer instead of screaming no at everything.

I'm going to guess that you aren't a golfer. lol.

At the time of the previous sale, the price was pretty low and to me was very suspicious. The residents could have easily come up with the type of money that this was sold for AND it was a fully maintained, running golf course. Now, at auction, I would guess the price will be significantly higher at auction and even if the price was doable, now there will be pretty high costs involved in reclaiming this land into a mature, working golf course.

As for the last sale, from the way I remember it was sold pretty much in secret, for a very low number, and just so happened to coincide with new ownership and a complete renovation/rebranding of Fairfax to Golf Club of Edmond which is just around the corner. Now, the owners will auction this and I can't imagine they won't get more than the low number they paid previously. Again, just the way I remember it.

[Plutonic Panda]

I believe I had read that the golf course wasn’t doing well which led to the closure. A couple other courses around the city have shut down. I personally enjoy golf but I haven’t golfed in awhile. There are talks in LA of shutting down several courses and one of them in south central area is shutting down and being repurposed.

Golf, along with American football, is a sport that doesn’t seem to be growing much.

I get that it’s a bummer to move to a house on a golf course and have the course shut down. Perhaps a developer should come with a price to rebuild the course and increase HOA fees if the neighborhood wants it. I’m not sure how that would work. Otherwise what was proposed looked pretty nice and it’s a shame it didn’t work out.

[Rover]

I believe I had read that the golf course wasn’t doing well which led to the closure. A couple other courses around the city have shut down. I personally enjoy golf but I haven’t golfed in awhile. There are talks in LA of shutting down several courses and one of them in south central area is shutting down and being repurposed.

Golf, along with American football, is a sport that doesn’t seem to be growing much.

I get that it’s a bummer to move to a house on a golf course and have the course shut down. Perhaps a developer should come with a price to rebuild the course and increase HOA fees if the neighborhood wants it. I’m not sure how that would work. Otherwise what was proposed looked pretty nice and it’s a shame it didn’t work out.

Selling lots based on being on a golf course, and then later closing the course is classic bait and switch. It's a con.

This happened also at Traditions. Got extra money for the lots based on them backing up to a beautiful golf course.... and now they are looking into another back yard. Some developers have no shame.

People who buy in golf neighborhood need to make sure there are restrictions before they buy. It needs to be owned by the neighborhood, not by the developers.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree it is a bad deal but then again if there isn’t a promise the golf course will stay then that’s on the person who bought the house. Coffee Creek isn’t exactly a poor neighborhood. A bunch of the neighbors should band together and purchase it.

[T. Jamison]

A lot of these golf course developments were developed under the assumption that price per rounds would go significantly up ($100/round) in the early 2000's. Unfortunately, that never came to fruition because the market was flooded with new golf courses shortly thereafter. Municipal golf courses have basically run private (owned) courses into the ground. Municipal courses have the ability to invest amounts of money into them without ever expecting a profit. Private courses have to fold because they can't compete with the amenities of municipal courses.

I don't blame the developers. The golf business will ultimately end up in two tiers, high-end private courses and municipal courses. No one will likely be able to make money on a golf course like Coffee Creek again.

[Pete]

I wonder about River Oaks.

I was out there a few weekends ago on a very nice Saturday and the course and clubhouse seemed dead.

It's a very pretty setting.

[SouthOfTheVillage]

Selling lots based on being on a golf course, and then later closing the course is classic bait and switch. It's a con.

This happened also at Traditions. Got extra money for the lots based on them backing up to a beautiful golf course.... and now they are looking into another back yard. Some developers have no shame.

People who buy in golf neighborhood need to make sure there are restrictions before they buy. It needs to be owned by the neighborhood, not by the developers.

Con is a little strong, imo. In the case of Coffee Creek, the course was losing money hand over fist. But it was built back in 1991 and operated for decades. That would be one heck of a long con.

[BoulderSooner]

I wonder about River Oaks.

I was out there a few weekends ago on a very nice Saturday and the course and clubhouse seemed dead.

It's a very pretty setting.

membership is still strong and that club is in very good shape ..

[Rover]

A lot of these golf course developments were developed under the assumption that price per rounds would go significantly up ($100/round) in the early 2000's. Unfortunately, that never came to fruition because the market was flooded with new golf courses shortly thereafter. Municipal golf courses have basically run private (owned) courses into the ground. Municipal courses have the ability to invest amounts of money into them without ever expecting a profit. Private courses have to fold because they can't compete with the amenities of municipal courses.

I don't blame the developers. The golf business will ultimately end up in two tiers, high-end private courses and municipal courses. No one will likely be able to make money on a golf course like Coffee Creek again.

The issue isn’t that the golf course is a good business, but that the developers use the course to sell lots for more than they otherwise could BECAUSE of the expectation the course will be their backyards. The developers are free to pocket that extra profit and then double cross the homeowners and close the feature that earned them the profits in the first place. Classic bait and switch.

[7OUT]

The "bait and switch" argument is a "woe is me" perspective. Is it "bait and switch" if you buy a house that backs up to a field and Walmart later gets it re-zoned? I don't think so.

Buyers have every opportunity to understand what surrounds their property and who owns the corresponding interests. The developer golf course issue is old news on the left and right coasts. Hand-holding can only go so far....

[oklip955]

Ok, so we can bet it will never be a golf course again, now what should be done with the land?

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s Edmond... so bet on typical cheap cookie cutter housing and strip malls.

[MikeLucky]

I agree it is a bad deal but then again if there isn’t a promise the golf course will stay then that’s on the person who bought the house. Coffee Creek isn’t exactly a poor neighborhood. A bunch of the neighbors should band together and purchase it.

Lol. You are very quick to make everything easy with other people's money. If this was a Walmart with a sea of parking plopped in downtown OKC to replace Cox Center, for example, you'd be losing your mind. And, then being told that if you don't like it you should just buy the Cox Center to keep it from happening. See how ridiculous that sounds?

This isn't as cut and dry as you make it sound. And, you completely ignored my point that the home owners said they could have bought it for the low-ball price it was sold for previously, when it was still a developed golf course. That doesn't mean it will be sold now for the same price and it sure doesn't include the significant cost it would now need to make it a golf course again like it was at the time of the low-ball sale.

The home owners have every right to be pissed and the answer isn't, well sucks for you "rich" guys just buy it yourself. That's extremely naive, and in this case probably more about you having a history of hating Edmond and their ilk anyway so being an urbanist you couldn't care less about a golf course disappearing there anyway. But, that's just a guess based on your long history of posting on this board.

[Plutonic Panda]

Lol okay Mike. Think what you want. It makes no difference to me. Zoning laws exists for a reason. Your comparison to the cox center site is absurd given it lies nearby the densest area in the entire state and has strict zoning and design review laws that affect its outcome.

Even if they would have bought it for the “low balled” price would that have meant they would be able to pay for the maintenance?

Anyways, we are where we are. What do you propose? Stop bitching. Do something about it. Talk to you elected officials. I don’t have the information you have but I know this is prime real estate and what was proposed was unique to Edmond. I also know golf courses are shutting down left and right in this country. I also know that Edmond is flush with cookie cutter retail malls.

So let’s see what happens then. If the neighborhood doesn’t want to pony up the money than someone that does will develop what they buy. That isn’t me “making things easy with other peoples money” that is me speaking the truth about this situation.

Just out of curiosity, are you a home owner here?

[MikeLucky]

Lol okay Mike. Think what you want. It makes no difference to me. Zoning laws exists for a reason. Your comparison to the cox center site is absurd given it lies nearby the densest area in the entire state and has strict zoning and design review laws that affect its outcome.

Even if they would have bought it for the “low balled” price would that have meant they would be able to pay for the maintenance?

Anyways, we are where we are. What do you propose? Stop bitching. Do something about it. Talk to you elected officials. I don’t have the information you have but I know this is prime real estate and what was proposed was unique to Edmond. I also know golf courses are shutting down left and right in this country. I also know that Edmond is flush with cookie cutter retail malls.

So let’s see what happens then. If the neighborhood doesn’t want to pony up the money than someone that does will develop what they buy. That isn’t me “making things easy with other peoples money” that is me speaking the truth about this situation.

Just out of curiosity, are you a home owner here?

You completely missed the point and actually proved my comment about your feelings on Edmond. So, I'll chalk it up to naive.

I do not own in Coffee Creek. My folks own at Golf Club of Edmond/Fairfax. And, if the green behind their house was turned into anything other than a green, we'd be as pissed at you would be if they put a Walmart with a huge parking lot in the middle of downtown, no matter how much you deflect to avoid the fact.

[Rover]

The "bait and switch" argument is a "woe is me" perspective. Is it "bait and switch" if you buy a house that backs up to a field and Walmart later gets it re-zoned? I don't think so.

Buyers have every opportunity to understand what surrounds their property and who owns the corresponding interests. The developer golf course issue is old news on the left and right coasts. Hand-holding can only go so far....

WOW. What a classic bad comparison. Zero logic and zero empathy for buyers of property.
Hand holding? LOL. May as well say that if you are capable of getting the better of a buyer and it technically isn’t illegal, go for it. Great business ethics. Winning is everything, right? Profit over ethics is strong. Ethics is weakness. Is that correct? Make developers great again.

[Rover]

It’s Edmond... so bet on typical cheap cookie cutter housing and strip malls.

What a lazy characterization. You apparently know little about Edmond as a whole.

[MikeLucky]

What a lazy characterization. You apparently know little about Edmond as a whole.

He has hated Edmond for as long as I can remember because they allow businesses with parking lots and don't adhere strictly to urbanist, walkable design. I remember when the new Walmart was announced for Harrah and he was going on and on about how horrible the decision was because of the non-urbanist design and the sea of parking. Lol. He hates anything that isn't urban and because he's too young he's apparently incapable of actually appreciating anything except what he likes.

The fact is, a lot of people don't like people that live on a country club or a golf course because they think, "well they are rich so who cares." What they don't stop to think about is that many of those homeowners are likely older folks that have worked hard their entire life to build equity in their homes, make some sacrifices and tough decisions over the years, and finally get their chance to own their forever retirement home on a golf course. It's the dream of a lot of people that are in retirement age right now, and it doesn't make them rich or able to just write a check and buy a golf course. I'm many cases this home and it's equity is not only their comfortable place to retire, but also the inheritance they are leaving their children. And, what has happened here is 100% legal, but it's a horrible thing that happened to those homeowners that this home means so much to. The whole world doesn't have the millennial attitude of, well it's been 2 years so it's time to move and get a different job and get all new stuff. Golf course is gone so just move.... That's not how this works.

But yeah, screw them and their problems because they are "rich" and live in Edmond.

[Plutonic Panda]

You completely missed the point and actually proved my comment about your feelings on Edmond. So, I'll chalk it up to naive.

I do not own in Coffee Creek. My folks own at Golf Club of Edmond/Fairfax. And, if the green behind their house was turned into anything other than a green, we'd be as pissed at you would be if they put a Walmart with a huge parking lot in the middle of downtown, no matter how much you deflect to avoid the fact.

What a lazy characterization. You apparently know little about Edmond as a whole.

It’s not a cheap characterization at all and you are obviously with this city being a cookie cutter as possible. If it was so cheap than it should be easy for you to refute what I said about Edmond but you can’t.

I grew up here. I will likely buy a home in Edmond within the next 2-5 years. You don’t know anything about how I feel about Edmond other than the fact that I’m frustrated with its small town mentality that leads to horrible traffic and endless cookie cutter developments voting down real game changing developments for the city.

And I don’t want to hear about a handful of developments downtown renders what’s happening the majority of the city elsewhere irrelevant because it doesn’t.

As far as the coffee creek development goes, Mike. I’m not going to keep running circles with you. As I said, I love Edmond as it’s my hometown. I advocate for it all the time and write to councilmembers left and right on suggestions and ideas to make the city better. I am harsh on it often because it frustrates me so much some of the developments that have been pushed away. Rover just loves to run to Edmonds rescue and make the same repetitive statements every time someone criticizes Edmond.

I can name tons of great things about Edmond. But the topic were on it is one of Edmonds downsides. Assuming my opinion of Edmond based on this incident is a lazy characterization.

[Plutonic Panda]

He has hated Edmond for as long as I can remember because they allow businesses with parking lots and don't adhere strictly to urbanist, walkable design. I remember when the new Walmart was announced for Harrah and he was going on and on about how horrible the decision was because of the non-urbanist design and the sea of parking. Lol. He hates anything that isn't urban and because he's too young he's apparently incapable of actually appreciating anything except what he likes.

The fact is, a lot of people don't like people that live on a country club or a golf course because they think, "well they are rich so who cares." What they don't stop to think about is that many of those homeowners are likely older folks that have worked hard their entire life to build equity in their homes, make some sacrifices and tough decisions over the years, and finally get their chance to own their forever retirement home on a golf course. It's the dream of a lot of people that are in retirement age right now, and it doesn't make them rich or able to just write a check and buy a golf course. I'm many cases this home and it's equity is not only their comfortable place to retire, but also the inheritance they are leaving their children. And, what has happened here is 100% legal, but it's a horrible thing that happened to those homeowners that this home means so much to. The whole world doesn't have the millennial attitude of, well it's been 2 years so it's time to move and get a different job and get all new stuff. Golf course is gone so just move.... That's not how this works.

But yeah, screw them and their problems because they are "rich" and live in Edmond.

I think you have me confused with another poster. I can’t even begin to name the amount of arguments I’ve gotten into with other posters here before because I primarily support sprawl and automobile based infrastructure OVER walkable/urban design.

Please, stop repeating statements about me that aren’t true. Show me where I said I hate Edmond because it isn’t walkable. I’ll wait. . .

[Plutonic Panda]

WOW. What a classic bad comparison. Zero logic and zero empathy for buyers of property.
Hand holding? LOL. May as well say that if you are capable of getting the better of a buyer and it technically isn’t illegal, go for it. Great business ethics. Winning is everything, right? Profit over ethics is strong. Ethics is weakness. Is that correct? Make developers great again.

So rover, instead of playing devils advocate here what is your suggestion for this property. See, unlike you, Mr. Edmond Lover, I just hate Edmond so much I actually spend time thinking of ways for this situation to be resolved as I mentioned in previous posts. What’s your idea? I guess a great developer should come in and restore the golf course and lose money, huh?

[MikeLucky]

I think you have me confused with another poster. I can’t even begin to name the amount of arguments I’ve gotten into with other posters here before because I primarily support sprawl and automobile based infrastructure OVER walkable/urban design.

Please, stop repeating statements about me that aren’t true. Show me where I said I hate Edmond because it isn’t walkable. I’ll wait. . .

My apologies... I did confuse you for someone else. I do know that you are hard on Edmond, but after hearing your reasons behind it, I can appreciate your perspective.

As for Coffee Creek, it's done. There is no way that golf course is being turned into a golf course again because like you said, the market sucks for golf courses. So, their options are some strange attempt at a mixed use development that would only bring added traffic (at best) or leave a horrible ghost town development to rot in their back yards. The other option is more houses. Neither option is a good one for the people that bought for a specific reason and have lost that specific reason. The best option was to sell to the residents at the low-ball offer they sold it for at that time, which I believe never would have happened anyway because I think it was done on purpose. There's no good answer because these folks were straight up victimized. Now, we'll see what happens to home values. That could end up being the ultimate and final kick in the junk.

[Plutonic Panda]

No worries.

I hear you, I would be pretty pissed off I were a home owner there and I feel for the residents. As I said, I don’t know the specifics of the original offer and if it was low balled then that is pretty shady and should be looked into.

I understand that stating the residents should buy it isn’t necessary realistic as money is limited. It would take a lot of people pooling money together and to be honest I’m not even sure how that would work.

I think at the end of the day a developer comes in and builds something nice the neighborhood should work with it and not oppose everything. A compromise should be met. Perhaps work with the city to have the city buy parts of it and build a trail connection with a greenway.

The walkable urban development at coffee and Kelly was cool as it would enable residents to simply walk to the development while others can drive from away. Either way what is in demand will be built and if it’s in the form of a strip mall inevitably we’ll still see the traffic anyways as it will require more people to drive. I guess the point I’m trying to make is traffic is going to worse no matter what and we should be wise to pick developments that work well and retrofit the surrounding infrastructure as best as possible. I do hope the city has kept enough ROW to widen the streets to six lanes down the road.

[Rover]

So rover, instead of playing devils advocate here what is your suggestion for this property. See, unlike you, Mr. Edmond Lover, I just hate Edmond so much I actually spend time thinking of ways for this situation to be resolved as I mentioned in previous posts. What’s your idea? I guess a great developer should come in and restore the golf course and lose money, huh?

You screw up an argument in so many ways. LOL.

First, because I don't wish to make a stereotype out of Edmond, something people lazily and ignorantly do. Like they stereotype all young people as hipsters or all old people as decrepit. Just like , Austin, Portland and virtually every other city in the nation, there are pockets of every type of development, people, etc. in the OKC area. Edmond happens to be a small town that has grown to be a big suburb. It has a nice urban walkable center that is conveniently close to a university, groceries, parks, restaurants, locally owned retail, and all types of housing. If anyone bothers to go there they would see that. Edmond has cookie cutter neighborhoods, run down old neighborhoods, nice wooded and hilly neighborhoods, and some of the highest price and nicest houses in the metro. It has suburban shopping malls and more stylish shopping centers. Plenty of strip malls too. So, you obviously aren't familiar with Edmond and only want to spew hate on a stereotype you want to promote.

I don't hate Edmond, but I don't choose to live there either. I live relatively close to downtown in a pretty dense and aesthetically pleasing area where I have lots of amenities I love. I just don't care to bash others for pursuing their most desired lifestyle that they can afford whether it's in Edmond, Bricktown, the Plaza or in one of the many cookie cutter neighborhoods in OKC.