New Arena (formerly Prairie Surf)

[OKCisOK4me]

There is no reason the Cox site itself can't be mixed-use. The retail only takes up the first floor. Everything above that would be office, housing, or even a hotel. The Cox site represent the single best location to establish serious downtown retail because of the adjacent transit hub. In the not to distant future people all over the metro will be able to get there without having to worry about a parking space, plus all of the people that can either live on-site or within easy walking distance.

I wasn't excluding that option but go ahead and add that to the list. I full well expect that if California and Broadway were pedestrian corridors in this superblock that there be residential/office/retail on all corners and street fronts. I 110% agree with you :-)

I never played SIM City, but that area would explode with $$$ potential.

[hoya]

I walk to Bricktown almost every day for lunch. The Cox Center is a giant dead zone. It's uncomfortable to walk past. I have found I go out of my way to avoid walking beside it. Virtually every other path to Bricktown is more comfortable, even if I end up walking a longer distance. Walking next to it is creepy. It feels unsafe, like it's so deserted that I'm going to be attacked by a wasteland mutant.

With the future transit center right across the street, we're going to want to do something to make that area more appealing to pedestrians. Demolishing the Cox Center and putting in 4 new blocks of buildings would be ideal. I can't get across how much better it feels to walk next to normal buildings rather than blank wall. We don't want a transit center just to have one. We want people to actually use it. Having normal buildings with retail on the ground, etc, will make that more likely. By the time Deep Deuce, Midtown, and Automobile Alley have filled up with residential, if the market is still strong, property values downtown will go up. This will make highrise residential construction possible. Imagine a few 400-500 foot towers there, mixed use, with retail at ground level, and an 800 foot energy company tower bordering the park. Much much much better than an arena for the Barons. I will trade that for them having to share the Peake with the Thunder.

[OKCisOK4me]

^^^likey likey^^^

[UnFrSaKn]

I like the idea of turning the block into something like the 16th St. Mall in Denver. Until just now I had no idea it was designed by Pei.

16th Street Mall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am thinking of something like this. It isn't a street open to traffic but it has the look and feel of a street which includes a simulated curb and sidewalk (although I would prefer a real curb and sidewalk). Delivery trucks can use the 'street' before 8AM to make deliveries to stores but after that it is pedestrian only.

Sorry for the picture size - I didn't know it was that big

[UnFrSaKn]

Also, if I had a billion dollars I would rebuild/recreate the most beloved historic buildings and put them all on that block and have retail and other such things on the ground floor and have a street wall like the above photo.

[Teo9969]

For OKC, in this particular spot, the pedestrian walkway would fit better if it were smaller. That looks somewhere between 50 and 60 feet wide, and OKC should be shooting closer for 30/35 feet wide.

[Just the facts]

It gets a little tricky when you have a pedestrian only street, but if it was a traditional street in a T6 setting you would be looking at each sidewalk being 20' wide. That is 40' right there and you still have the street, on-street parking, and a bike lane to account for. Around 85' feet building to building is realistic. At this width proper street enclosure would require buildings with a height of around 8 stories.

Generally, the height of the building should equal the width of the public realm between building facades. Building that go higher should be a wedding cake design so at to not create a canyon effect which creates too much enclosure and discourages pedestrians. In old world Paris they capped the height of buildings based on an angle drawn from the center of the street which is why the top floor of each building curves in (it allowed them to get one more floor on the building without violating the angle restriction).

[Teo9969]

No reason for a car to be on this block (oustide of delivery/emergency) unless we're planning a parking garage...even then, cars could enter from one of Sheridan/Reno/Harvey/EKG

[Just the facts]

A pedestrian only street would be fine (or maybe even include the streetcar) but the height:width ratio will still apply. Putting a 40' pedestrian space between 500' buildings won't work to attract and retain pedestrians.

[Rover]

Pedestrian malls have largely been a failure in the US. Of the 75 or so created in the 70s and 80s, most failed. It takes a fairly unique set of circumstanced that make it work....not circumstances existing now in OKC. A combination of walkability, bikeability and drivability are much better than reducing access to one mode. Let's not repeat another urban renewal failure...we have had enough.

[OKCisOK4me]

I like the idea of turning the block into something like the 16th St. Mall in Denver. Until just now I had no idea it was designed by Pei.

16th Street Mall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have you seen or heard of this concept:

City Creek Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk about perfect for this superblock!

Doable? As Rover suggests? Maybe not, but if OKC truly turns into an urban center then it could possibly work in say 25 years.

[Laramie]

It would be in our best interests to keep the Cox Convention Center especially since we invested $50 million in renovations from MAPS I; that's more than twice the cost of original construction. The Cox Center (Old Myriad) initially cost voters $23 million when it was built in 1973: Cox Convention Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. What happen to the plans to downsize the Great Arena (inside Old Myriad) to accommodate 7,500? Those plans if I recall included keeping the upper level seating for rodeos, trade shows, bike racing etc., renovate the lower level for exhibition space.

We will eventually have to evaluate the feasibility of replacing or renovating the Chesapeake Energy Arena once it gets past 20-25 years. We're talking about 2022-25. The Civic Center Music Hall (old Minicipal Auditorium) was a grand old palace in its day and it's one of the few historic structiures we didn't tear down.

The City is really going to have to do some extensive planning as to the direction we want to take OKC. This will include investing in consulting firms to help chart our needs for the immediate future.

[kevinpate]

Learned me something today. I was thinking The Myriad opened in 70. As that ain't the case, apparently I was a bit older than I remembered being when I saw my first Globetrotters game there. Must have been shortly after it opened, but that would still be a few years later. Sucks to have colander brain sometimes.

[OKCisOK4me]

It would be in our best interests to keep the Cox Convention Center especially since we invested $50 million in renovations from MAPS I; that's more than twice the cost of original construction. The Cox Center (Old Myriad) initially cost voters $23 million when it was built in 1973: Cox Convention Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. What happen to the plans to downsize the Great Arena (inside Old Myriad) to accommodate 7,500? Those plans if I recall included keeping the upper level seating for rodeos, trade shows, bike racing etc., renovate the lower level for exhibition space.

We will eventually have to evaluate the feasibility of replacing or renovating the Chesapeake Energy Arena once it gets past 20-25 years. We're talking about 2022-25. The Civic Center Music Hall (old Minicipal Auditorium) was a grand old palace in its day and it's one of the few historic structiures we didn't tear down.

The City is really going to have to do some extensive planning as to the direction we want to take OKC. This will include investing in consulting firms to help chart our needs for the immediate future.

Wait a second...

The Myriad cost $23 mil initially, $50 mil to renovate courtesy of MAPS I, costing a total of $73 million.

Ford Center/OKC Arena/Chesapeake Arena cost $89 mil initially courtesy of MAPS I and additional renovations totaling to $76 mil, costing a total of $166 million.

Why do we want to save the Cox Convention Center again?

[jn1780]

It would be in our best interests to keep the Cox Convention Center especially since we invested $50 million in renovations from MAPS I; that's more than twice the cost of original construction. The Cox Center (Old Myriad) initially cost voters $23 million when it was built in 1973: Cox Convention Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. What happen to the plans to downsize the Great Arena (inside Old Myriad) to accommodate 7,500? Those plans if I recall included keeping the upper level seating for rodeos, trade shows, bike racing etc., renovate the lower level for exhibition space.

We will eventually have to evaluate the feasibility of replacing or renovating the Chesapeake Energy Arena once it gets past 20-25 years. We're talking about 2022-25. The Civic Center Music Hall (old Minicipal Auditorium) was a grand old palace in its day and it's one of the few historic structiures we didn't tear down.

The City is really going to have to do some extensive planning as to the direction we want to take OKC. This will include investing in consulting firms to help chart our needs for the immediate future.

There will be more than enough space for these things in the new Convention Center and tons of money has been invested in equestrian and rodeo facilities at the State Fair. Plus, a new expo center is about to be built there.

That just leaves the shows that need an arena. Anything big and worthwhile is going to pick the bigger and nicer arena. Outside of Baron games, the arena floor space at the Cox probably only gets use when the rest of the exhbition space is completely full.

[Just the facts]

Wait a second...

The Myriad cost $23 mil initially, $50 mil to renovate courtesy of MAPS I, costing a total of $73 million.

Ford Center/OKC Arena/Chesapeake Arena cost $89 mil initially courtesy of MAPS I and additional renovations totaling to $76 mil, costing a total of $166 million.

Why do we want to save the Cox Convention Center again?

Hold on - you missed a big part. The NEW convention center will cost $450 million when both phases are finished plus whatever we kick in for the hotel. The Cox Arena was not part of MAPS I. So we will have spent over $600 million on a new arena AND a new convention center and for some reason people think we will keep booking events in the 40 year old facility. It isn't going to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cox cost more to maintain than it brings in revenue and that is even going to be more true after the new convention center opens.

[Laramie]

There will be more than enough space for these things in the new Convention Center and tons of money has been invested in equestrian and rodeo facilities at the State Fair. Plus, a new expo center is about to be built there.

That just leaves the shows that need an arena. Anything big and worthwhile is going to pick the bigger and nicer arena. Outside of Baron games, the arena floor space at the Cox probably only gets use when the rest of the exhbition space is completely full.

My main concern is poor planning; these are the kinds of decisions which cause voters to believe that some MAPS projects are a waste. You're right, we fumbled the ball on the Cox Convention Center if there is no longer a use for this facility. You think this doesn't concern voters?

Do we have any idea what our convention facility needs are going to be five, ten or fifteen years down the road? Some rodeo and or esquestian events would be better situated in the downtown setting. Now we're ready to throw $76 millions into a pile of trash...

Voters are really turned off when the decision is made to demolish school buildings and taxpayer funded buildings such as the Cox Convention Center. Do what you promised the voters you were going to do with these structures. Changing the horse while crossing the middle of the stream is not going to make the grade.

There will be more than enough space for these things in the new Convention Center and tons of money has been invested in equestrian and rodeo facilities at the State Fair. Plus, a new expo center is about to be built there.

That just leaves the shows that need an arena. Anything big and worthwhile is going to pick the bigger and nicer arena. Outside of Baron games, the arena floor space at the Cox probably only gets use when the rest of the exhbition space is completely full.

Do we know what direction we are going to take downtown events? Do we know that the space in the new convention center is going to be accomplish our future needs. Our downtown hotel needs are coming along. If we want to move from a Tier III to a Tier II convention city we are going to have to attract the type of events which will help up accomplish accommodations for downtown. The fairgrounds facilities are coming along fine; however, having the options for a downtown setting shouldn't be ruled out.

I'm well aware that the Myriad Convention Center was completed in the early seventies when a bond issue barely passed. I voted for it. We've pumped twice the original amount into upgraded that facility with MAPS I and now you want to tear it down?

Why not reconstruct the old Stockyards Coliseum if we're going to throw away millions of dollars?

Face it people, we have got to use our MAPS money wisely. I know MAPS is for capital improvements; however, when we have safety issues (Police & Fire) opposing MAPS because they don't understand how budgets work and they can only sipen the use tax money to expand their departments--do we need this type of drama?

We need:

1. A strategic comprehensive plan on what we want to do with the future developments of OKC through MAPS.
2. To assess where we want to develop certain projects in our city.
3. To educate voters about bond issues, MAPS sales tax referendums and school millage issues and how these things work.

We have a great thing going in Oklahoma City and we are the envy of many cities. Let's move forward and plan ahead where we are not imploding and/or tearing down the projects we just built.

Does this mean investing money in hiring more consulting firms to do our needs assessment? LET'S GET IT RIGHT!

[Laramie]

Hold on - you missed a big part. The NEW convention center will cost $450 million when both phases are finished plus whatever we kick in for the hotel. The Cox Arena was not part of MAPS I. So we will have spent over $600 million on a new arena AND a new convention center and for some reason people think we will keep booking events in the 40 year old facility. It isn't going to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cox cost more to maintain than it brings in revenue and that is even going to be more true after the new convention center opens.

It's getting expensive to build these facilities; therefore we need to get it right... These facilities are built to spur more development which brings in the revenue, we know that there is no direct payoff as far as structures like the Cox Convention Center paying for itself.

It is unpopular to start imploding and tearing down things we just built. We have totally gutted our city's historic structures over the past 40 years.

Are we thinking ahead about a future home for the Thunders? How we can work the Chesapeake Energy Arena into our future convention needs should we decide to build a new NBA facility?

[Just the facts]

The money spent on the Myriad in MAPS I wasn't to make a state of the art of facility capable of carrying the city into the future. It was spent to bring the facility up to minimum standards for the time. It is the difference between buying a new 2014 car or spending just enough to keep the tires from falling off the 1972 Chevy Nova.

Personally, I think the MAPS model was a good way to jump start OKC, but OKC isn't sitting a stand-still anymore so I would be happy if we moved away from the 'create pile of money first and then figure out how to spend it' to a 'here is exactly what we to do and here is how much it cost' model. Take the sidewalks for example. Instead of saying we want to build as many feet of sidewalks as we can for X dollars, and then vote on X dollars; we say we want to build X feet of sidewalks and here is how much it will cost, and then we vote on X feet of sidewalk.

[Laramie]

The money spent on the Myriad in MAPS I wasn't to make a state of the art of facility capable of carrying the city into the future. It was spent to bring the facility up to minimum standards for the time. It is the difference between buying a new 2014 car or spending just enough to keep the tires from falling off the 1972 Chevy Nova.

Personally, I think the MAPS model was a good way to jump start OKC, but OKC isn't sitting a stand-still anymore so I would be happy if we moved away from the 'create pile of money first and then figure out how to spend it' to a 'here is exactly what we to do and here is how much it cost' model. Take the sidewalks for example. Instead of saying we want to build as many feet of sidewalks as we can for X dollars, and then vote on X dollars; we say we want to build X feet of sidewalks and here is how much it will cost, and then we vote on X feet of sidewalk.

LMAO! You made my day... Don't remind me of my friend's bramd mew 1972 Chevy NOVA (parents bought him); the dude cried because he wanted something else. I was driving my 1964 Impala to Central State University praying and hoping I could get to school and back. LMAO... His parents lived in a house with 8 bedrooms and he wanted something better than a brand new Nova. A 'spoiled brat' he was and 'mother' was getting ready to move into a new house with 14 bedrooms. Sorry, I got caught up in the moment...

Well, it would be simple if we could put wheels and tires on the Cox Convention Center and haul it away...

Sure MAPS did jump start Oklahoma City. Let's keep that old Chevy NOVA looking good and parked in the back. I hate I traded my old Studebaker for that 64' Impala.

Plain and simple, we need to plan as we go and grow.

[Just the facts]

No doubt it is getting expensive and since 2/3 of the events are for local functions I seriously doubt the revenue generated from the other 1/3 covers the cost of construction - however - there is nothing wrong with having nice things for the locals, I just wish they would sell it as a quality of life facility and not a revenue generator because most convention centers require operation subsidies and never make back the construction cost (even when they use the pie in the sky indirect spending from out-of-town visitors).

[hoya]

It is getting expensive to build some of these facilities. But long term planning is hard. It is impossible to predict our convention needs in 2025. We can give a best guess but that is it. We have seen the difficulties with that kind of planning with Core 2 Shore and the park. Assumptions that were made in 2005 no longer appear to be true today.

At a certain point the Myriad becomes more valuable to the city by not being there. Yes we spent money on it, but you can't just count all that as a loss. We've had that facility for 40 years. We have got our money's worth. It'll be another 10 at least before anyone looks at tearing it down. The Myriad is not an architecturally significant structure. It is mostly blank wall. We aren't tearing down the Civic Center here.

There is a difference between being a wise steward of public money and being cheap. Eventually you have to quit driving the 1973 station wagon and get a new car. We may have spent $80 million or so over the past 40 years, but it's no longer worth that. At some point the value of the land it sits on becomes higher than the value of the Myriad itself. We may not have hit that point now but we will soon.

[CaptDave]

There is a difference between being a wise steward of public money and being cheap.

That is key to building on the momentum the city has gained. OKC is a different place than it was 15+ years ago. It is something that needs to be accepted and taken to heart in OKC and Oklahoma.

[Laramie]

It is getting expensive to build some of these facilities. But long term planning is hard. It is impossible to predict our convention needs in 2025. We can give a best guess but that is it. We have seen the difficulties with that kind of planning with Core 2 Shore and the park. Assumptions that were made in 2005 no longer appear to be true today.

At a certain point the Myriad becomes more valuable to the city by not being there. Yes we spent money on it, but you can't just count all that as a loss. We've had that facility for 40 years. We have got our money's worth. It'll be another 10 at least before anyone looks at tearing it down. The Myriad is not an architecturally significant structure. It is mostly blank wall. We aren't tearing down the Civic Center here.

There is a difference between being a wise steward of public money and being cheap. Eventually you have to quit driving the 1973 station wagon and get a new car. We may have spent $80 million or so over the past 40 years, but it's no longer worth that. At some point the value of the land it sits on becomes higher than the value of the Myriad itself. We may not have hit that point now but we will soon.

We never implemented the I. M. Pei Plan of the 60s. The Convention Center and the Myriad Gardens were completed, the Galleria Mall was never built. We piecemealed bits and pieces of the plan; left out the 'retail part' and put the dagger in the heart with the underground concourse which completely gutted the street life activity from the plan. Pei was beside himself when he saw what OKC had done with his master piece. Recovery from this mistake has been slow and painful.

The String-of-Pearls river parks plan was another ball we fumbled. There's another development (Core-to-Shore) plan headed toward that same path to become victim. Many of these plans were great ideas for Oklahoma City; however, we continue to half-step our way into the future.

Everytime I'm in Dallas, Houston, Austin and/or Tulsa and shop in their Galleria Malls, I can't help but reflect on what could have occurred in Oklahoma City. This continuance of half-stepping our way into the future as we partially complete many plans doesn't provide a true foundation for our city's future. The Galleria Mall retail piece was envisioned with an indoor skating rink and other amenities would have been great to jump start things; retail development never seem to have recovered past the pilot light stage.

[BoulderSooner]

how is the core to shore headed down that path??