Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

[Plutonic Panda]

I used to advocate for a Classen road diet until I saw just how packed that road becomes at rush hour. Removing lanes would be foolish. They need to add a bus only lane by expanding the road. The room to do so exists.

[Teo9969]

I used to advocate for a Classen road diet until I saw just how packed that road becomes at rush hour. Removing lanes would be foolish. They need to add a bus only lane by expanding the road. The room to do so exists.

Classen is never packed. I've lived off N. Classen since 2009 and I've never hit the same light twice except @ Expressway, but that intersection services an interstate exit and the origin point for one of the busiest thoroughfares in all of the city.

It does sometimes become a long process to turn left, but a lot of times that's because people don't know how to queue for turning within a median.

Signal prioritization vs losing a lane might even out, but I do think going down to 2 lanes each way could bump rush hour traffic to situations where you hit a light twice.

[Teo9969]

Anyone know if BRT is going to have night service?

[Plutonic Panda]

Classen is never packed.

lol okay

[AP]

Classen is never packed.

I have to second this. I lived at 42nd and Classen for years and my experience was the same. We used to walk from my house to Western Ave and would regularly push a stroller across all 6 lanes of Classen without jogging across. It is certainly overbuilt.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well the good news is the city leaders do see Classen becomes packed during rush hour and aren’t removing lanes.

[AP]

"Packed"

It's so packed it takes 11 minutes at 9:30 on a Wednesday morning in no traffic and 15 minutes on a Wednesday at 5 to go from 6th & Classen to NWE & Classen.

[Plutonic Panda]

Right. So let’s make it worse by removing lanes and not think about the future. We can do this. Oh wait the city leaders are smarter than that so lanes won’t be removed. Thank God. Next.

[runOKC]

I drive Classen during rush hour all the time. It is rarely, if ever, packed. It is a monster of a road, basically a six lane highway in the middle of the city. It needs to be reduced.

[Pete]

I cross it twice a day for work and frequently drive on it.

People drive way too fast; it's like a freeway.

[Plutonic Panda]

I drive Classen during rush hour all the time. It is rarely, if ever, packed. It is a monster of a road, basically a six lane highway in the middle of the city. It needs to be reduced.

Six lane highway. Thanks I needed a good laugh today.

[LocoAko]

Well the good news is the city leaders do see Classen becomes packed during rush hour and aren’t removing lanes.

It's not packed. Honestly the most disruptive traffic issues in Classen are due almost exclusively to the horrible turns through the median and the backups that can suddenly cause in the left lane.
Having to wait at a light for two one-hour windows each day is not the same thing as being packed to any problematic degree. Take it from the people who actually see Classen daily.

I live right off Classen and have had to cross it jogging. Even at rush hour I've been able to cross it without having to wait. When I do have to wait, it's never for long. And don't sarcastically dismiss concerns about the speeds people drive on Classen. People frequently speed down Classen at dangerous speeds. I've seen close calls with people in wheelchairs nearly getting mowed down. People have gotten hit and died on Classen. It's not a joke. God forbid we have a nice, multimodal corridor through the heart of our city where people feel safe to walk, bike, and take public transit. What a travesty that'd be.

[GoGators]

It's not packed. Honestly the most disruptive traffic issues in Classen are due almost exclusively to the horrible turns through the median and the backups that can suddenly cause in the left lane.
Having to wait at a light for two one-hour windows each day is not the same thing as being packed to any problematic degree. Take it from the people who actually see Classen daily.

I live right off Classen and have had to cross it jogging. Even at rush hour I've been able to cross it without having to wait. When I do have to wait, it's never for long. And don't sarcastically dismiss concerns about the speeds people drive on Classen. People frequently speed down Classen at dangerous speeds. I've seen close calls with people in wheelchairs nearly getting mowed down. People have gotten hit and died on Classen. It's not a joke. God forbid we have a nice, multimodal corridor through the heart of our city where people feel safe to walk, bike, and take public transit. What a travesty that'd be.

So you want roads that are designed to serve the wants and needs of the communities who actually live near them instead of making neighborhoods more dangerous and less desirable so a guy who lives 30 miles away can get home 7 min faster once a month? Is that really a world we want to live in?

[BDP]

"Packed"

It's so packed it takes 11 minutes at 9:30 on a Wednesday morning in no traffic and 15 minutes on a Wednesday at 5 to go from 6th & Classen to NWE & Classen.

Yeah, um, I know it's anecdotal, but just today at 5:05 PM I drove from NW 10th to Classen circle going averaging about 40 MPH (while being passed) and stopped at one light, for one cycle at 23rd.

I can't say whether eliminating car lanes for other modes of transit is a good idea or not, but it certainly has nothing to do with Classen currently being "packed" at any time. That's just not reality.

The only time it may be "packed" is when there's emergency vehicles involved. And, even then, you're in the grid, so it's super easy to go around. Roads get overly packed when the system is designed so that drivers have no other option but to use that road. That's why Memorial Road and Broadway in Edmond are the roads that get "packed" every day during rush hours. There's no other option to take.

[SEMIweather]

It's not packed. Honestly the most disruptive traffic issues in Classen are due almost exclusively to the horrible turns through the median and the backups that can suddenly cause in the left lane.
Having to wait at a light for two one-hour windows each day is not the same thing as being packed to any problematic degree. Take it from the people who actually see Classen daily.

I live right off Classen and have had to cross it jogging. Even at rush hour I've been able to cross it without having to wait. When I do have to wait, it's never for long. And don't sarcastically dismiss concerns about the speeds people drive on Classen. People frequently speed down Classen at dangerous speeds. I've seen close calls with people in wheelchairs nearly getting mowed down. People have gotten hit and died on Classen. It's not a joke. God forbid we have a nice, multimodal corridor through the heart of our city where people feel safe to walk, bike, and take public transit. What a travesty that'd be.

Agree wholeheartedly with the bolded portion of LocoAko's post. If the city just knocks Classen down from six lanes to four lanes without fixing the median issue it's probably going to be a huge mess, but if they do a road diet in concert with fixing the medians, I think it's possible that the road becomes more pedestrian friendly while also improving safety and traffic flow. There's no reason anyone should be able to turn left onto Classen at 5 p.m. on a Wednesday from NW 44th St. or whatever. Putting in dedicated turnaround lanes similar to Lindsey St. between Barry & 24th Ave. SW in Norman while reducing the number of through lanes from six to four would probably result in a net improvement in traffic flow while also making the road more pedestrian-friendly.

[shawnw]

To get back on the topic of BRT, I finally got around to watching the video, and I didn't catch some things just by looking at the screenshots posted of the slides.

For example, at 13/Classen, didn't realize the pink lines were the planned intersection work for the OnCue, stated on the audio was that the slip lane is definitely going away. Also on that slide, didn't notice the protected bike lane before.


In this one, the city is adding an outside lane to this part of NW Exp in the future so the bus stop is going where that lane will be so it won't have to be moved later (holy cow, advanced coordination). Similar thing caddy corner, planning for a future turn lane.


Lastly for the NW Exp/Meridian slide, it's mentioned that there are plans for a roundabout and some mixed use development (not by Embark obvs) and so the station location is not yet locked in.

Anyway, thought I'd share these points for those that hadn't listened. Sorry if I repeated anything already pointed out.

[LocoAko]

To get back on the topic of BRT, I finally got around to watching the video, and I didn't catch some things just by looking at the screenshots posted of the slides.

For example, at 13/Classen, didn't realize the pink lines were the planned intersection work for the OnCue, stated on the audio was that the slip lane is definitely going away. Also on that slide, didn't notice the protected bike lane before.


In this one, the city is adding an outside lane to this part of NW Exp in the future so the bus stop is going where that lane will be so it won't have to be moved later (holy cow, advanced coordination). Similar thing caddy corner, planning for a future turn lane.


Lastly for the NW Exp/Meridian slide, it's mentioned that there are plans for a roundabout and some mixed use development (not by Embark obvs) and so the station location is not yet locked in.

Anyway, thought I'd share these points for those that hadn't listened. Sorry if I repeated anything already pointed out.

Good stuff. I assume that bike lane is just a protected section of the one proposed for "Western" from 18th down to Main?

I was also curious about this mention of mixed-use development and the roundabout at the Lake Hefner site. I hadn't heard anything about that before.

[shawnw]

Correct about the bike lane.

Same, hopefully Pete can dig into it.

[AnguisHerba]

I really wanted there to be a dedicated bus lane to ensure this was a success, but I had never heard of the "queue jumping" idea before. Sounds like it could work as long as the intersections are constructed appropriately.

[shawnw]

Agreed, wanting there to be more of these

[HOT ROD]

guys, everybody's desires will be solved with the implementation of this BRT.

1) Speeds will naturally decrease due to the ever present busses, increased pedestrians, and likely lower speed limits. also note that BRT will have signal priority and there's several mid-block crossings with signal - also slowing traffic overall.

2) Slowing traffic WILL increase delays on Classen and probably NW Expressway (to a lesser degree, but still). Luckily, since both are 6 lane highways (not freeways Panda) then there is already capacity.

3) While the 15-minute trip time may be seen as not an improvement, but that can be revised with more buses added if necessary as well as the promotion of the network that you can 'ride, relax, and leave the driving to Transit.' Along with the not having to park downtown. ..

it may take awhile and need promotion but it should promote folks along the corridor to give up or not use their cars as much.

4) As ridership increases hopefully Embark will do the right thing and have local bus added to feed the BRT. This will enable neighborhood and amenity attraction without having a door-to-door stop at EVERY location along the way. Folks will just have to get used to living in a big city, walking to a stop and/or transferring is a way of life but the city does need to accommodate local/feeder lines and I believe BRT will force them to do so.

5) Park N Ride may not ever be fully utilized at the Penn Square location but it would be foolish not to have one. Penn Square is one of the city's top destinations, add in Oak and a possible revitalized 50 Penn Place galleria and you have a true regional destination that you wouldn't ignore transit wise just because there are existing parking. .. The Lake Hefner Park N Ride makes the most sense overall since it WOULD cut down overall commute for folks living NW.

6) I assume this BRT will be extremely successful and would eventually be extended to Piedmont/Yukon - which would truly enable it to be a commute option. I agree that having the first terminus at Lake Hefner is probably short sighted but I think they did so to encourage/promote the use of Park N Ride rather than (again) having a front-door BRT for folks living in the outer loop suburban area.

7) The success of this BRT will feed the implementation of others. I presume lessons will be learned and other planned routes will be revised to facilitate a transit network. IMO, some of the other routes look just like a local bus with frequency upgrades.

BRT needs to be corridor specific and needs less (not more) stops to be successful. it is the implementation of the backbone COMBINED with local/feeder routes that make commuter and rapid transit lines successful so the transit moves on rather than stop at every point along the way (which is what local does/should do).


One thing I hope to eventually see in OKC (along with BRT implementation in dense areas) is Commuter Bus in corridors not planned for rail. We need true commuter routes (park n ride in the suburbs feeding non-stop bus into downtown) during rush hours in order for transit to truly be a 'thing'. This would resolve the trip duration issue plaguing the existing system and provide a REAL option for folks coming into the city.

Commuter Bus would be similar to Commuter Rail (planned N-S and to MWC) but cheaper and faster to implement. Switchover to rail could be justified once ridership is built by Commuter Bus.We could even implement Commuter Bus in the rail corridors to jump-start the route and get people comfortable with 'commuting'. Again, this is not BRT (which is rapid transit along dense population nodes), Commuter Bus is MASS transit where like Commuter Rail you connect suburban nodes to downtown en mass with very few if any stops.

[HOT ROD]

what happened to my formatting? fixed it. ..

[Teo9969]

So I'm assuming that at Expressway and Classen, BRT is going to get a green light in the far right (East) lane and will turn left across the intersection with the "queue jumping" and everyone else on red? If they have to get over to the left lane from 42nd, it's going to be a bad time during rush hour, precisely because of the speeds people drive this road at.

[shawnw]

Yes they say as much in the video

[lady_o]

Watched the video of the COTPA meeting. It's strange to me that there was no mention at all of the Independence x NW Expy intersection. They had a lot of material on this intersection in their original planning document. They had even thrown out the idea of a pedestrian bridge at one point.

Similar to Penn x NW Expy (where NWBRT actually is adding sidewalks), the intersection at Independence is currently unnavigable by foot or bike... as in literally no crossing whatsoever. If unaddressed, the lack of connecting infrastructure would severely restrict access to the bus station for anyone in surrounding neighborhoods. I live a quarter mile north of this intersection and wouldn't be able to access the station as it is planned.

Interesting though - I did find in the Better Streets project list that there's just under a million dollars of allocated funds for intersection improvements at Indep x NW Expy to begin in summer of 2022. Also, more vague and with no planned start date yet: "Bike Lanes: On NW Grand Blvd. and N. Independence Ave. to connect to the Bert Cooper Trails". Perhaps there is some coordination going on here?