Downtown Tulsa development ahead of OKC?

[Pete]

I doubt any city has had close to the return OKC has had on the Ford Center. Build dirt cheap by modern standards, it was completely responsible for landing first an NBA loaner team then making OKC a major league town. How can you begin to quantify the exposure? (Especially now with KD and the playoffs awaiting.)

Now, it's being upgraded at a still reasonable outlay and will serve the Thunder and citizens for quite some time.

Quite possibly the shrewdest arena deal in a very long time and that's a lot to be proud of in itself.

[OUGrad05]

I doubt any city has had close to the return OKC has had on the Ford Center. Build dirt cheap by modern standards, it was completely responsible for landing first an NBA loaner team then making OKC a major league town. How can you begin to quantify the exposure? (Especially now with KD and the playoffs awaiting.)

Now, it's being upgraded at a still reasonable outlay and will serve the Thunder and citizens for quite some time.

Quite possibly the shrewdest arena deal in a very long time and that's a lot to be proud of in itself.

Very true, the BOK is better looking and nicer to walk around inside. But the actual arena is as nicer or nicer in the ford center and the sound system is infinately better in the ford center.

[bombermwc]

Exactlly Pete and OUGrad. OKC got a lot more bang for the buck. We got a bargain basement deal with the opening of the thing, but kept it up to date over the last 10 years with wise investments from the citizens of OKC. We've got a debt free building while places like Seattle are still paying off a stinking renovation. We've brought a so-so building up to the upper echelon. The buidling will only be adequate for about another 15 years at most, but by then, we'll be ready to put it's replacement on the footprint of the Myriad anyway.1

We couldn't have asked for a better location for the arenas, because we will now forever have the side-by-side option. As one ages, it will be good timing for the other to bulldoze. I don't know of another city that planned that well in their downtown. Even Kansas City, which is as close as you get, demoed the wrong facility to keep their close arenas together....crap, they tossed Kemper but kept Municipal???? what the crap?


But back to OKC - Tulsa. Yeah the BOK is flashy, but what is the city going to get out of it? The 66ers are at the convention center, and I gurantee that the wnba will be there in a year. And the NBA won't be coming to town, so unless they get NHL, all they have will be the Oilers...and to be honest, they could probably go back to the convention center too...it would be a better financial decision for that team. Very soon, the "new car smell" will be gone, and it will be treading water, all the while the Ford Center will continue to fork out the cash. Remember the city gets tax dollars from out of town folks to all these events that help fill our pockets. If all you have is concerts and minor league hockey....honey you aren't getting crap. That's simply taking money that a person would have spent elsewhere in the city of tulsa and putting it in a restaurant downtown...it's redistribution, not new funds like an out-of-town visitor gives you (hotel/food/etc).

[BG918]

If there was ever going to be another pro team in Oklahoma it would be NHL at the BOK Center. But I don't see that happening for a long time unless an investor buys a team and brings them to Tulsa. I've always hoped the Blues would relocate from St. Louis to OKC (before the Thunder) or Tulsa, or one of the cities gets an expansion team.

[OUGrad05]

Exactlly Pete and OUGrad. OKC got a lot more bang for the buck. We got a bargain basement deal with the opening of the thing, but kept it up to date over the last 10 years with wise investments from the citizens of OKC. We've got a debt free building while places like Seattle are still paying off a stinking renovation. We've brought a so-so building up to the upper echelon. The buidling will only be adequate for about another 15 years at most, but by then, we'll be ready to put it's replacement on the footprint of the Myriad anyway.1

We couldn't have asked for a better location for the arenas, because we will now forever have the side-by-side option. As one ages, it will be good timing for the other to bulldoze. I don't know of another city that planned that well in their downtown. Even Kansas City, which is as close as you get, demoed the wrong facility to keep their close arenas together....crap, they tossed Kemper but kept Municipal???? what the crap?


But back to OKC - Tulsa. Yeah the BOK is flashy, but what is the city going to get out of it? The 66ers are at the convention center, and I gurantee that the wnba will be there in a year. And the NBA won't be coming to town, so unless they get NHL, all they have will be the Oilers...and to be honest, they could probably go back to the convention center too...it would be a better financial decision for that team. Very soon, the "new car smell" will be gone, and it will be treading water, all the while the Ford Center will continue to fork out the cash. Remember the city gets tax dollars from out of town folks to all these events that help fill our pockets. If all you have is concerts and minor league hockey....honey you aren't getting crap. That's simply taking money that a person would have spent elsewhere in the city of tulsa and putting it in a restaurant downtown...it's redistribution, not new funds like an out-of-town visitor gives you (hotel/food/etc).

Why do you assume the BOK is going to be "treading water" right now its one of the better facilities in north america and from what i have read its 38th in the world. That is impressive.

Sure the new car smell will wear off but its a nice facility that will continue to attract visitors for probably 15 years with no major renovations.

Just because its in Tulsa doesn't automatically mean it will suck in two or three years

[Rover]

Keep in mind the BOK center got several shows there because the Ford Center was being upgraded and not available. That helped BOK get the 38th ranking. When the Ford opened, it was one of the top 10 in the world if I remember correctly.

[OUGrad05]

Keep in mind the BOK center got several shows there because the Ford Center was being upgraded and not available. That helped BOK get the 38th ranking. When the Ford opened, it was one of the top 10 in the world if I remember correctly.

Yeah thats true, BOK picked up some shows because OKC was booked...
Ford center was top 10 in the nation not the world...but still top 10 in the US is good

[Spartan]

I think the discussion is addressing two distinct areas. The first being the actual downtown, and the second being surrounding neighborhoods. As someone who grew up in Tulsa, I am very familiar with the neighborhoods of Tulsa.

When looking at the actual downtown, OKC is far ahead of Tulsa. The level of activity during the day and night in Tulsa pales in comparison to OKC. Also there is a major difference between Tulsa and OKC in downtown is that since WilComm there have been no major expansion of employers. If anything there has been a steady loss, downsizing at Williams, WilCom, Parker Dilling left, if you talk to any of the restaurant owners in DT Tulsa they will tell you that they have noticed for years the steady decline in downtown employment. In Tulsa housing is merely being used to absorb office space off the market. In OKC you have employers expanding like Devon, and others like SandRidge filling in for the loss of K-M. Of interest is the last major private construction is now City Hall. BOk and ONEOK are the last major headquarter employers left in dt Tulsa, while OKC is booming comparatively. As a young person, I don't want to live in a downtown if their are not any good jobs there.

As far as the neighborhoods Tulsa has always had an advantage as it has historically been wealthier, so the inner city neighborhoods are better looking. This is nothing new, what is new the revitalization of midtown neighborhoods in OKC. Maple Ridge has been solid for over 20years now so its nothing new. Also as far as the wealth disparity with job losses continuing to mount in Tulsa, and replacements not filling in for CITGO, SemGroup, Parker etc. The wealth of the neighborhoods cannot be maintained at these levels.

And as far as arenas, and maybe I am biased as a sports fan, its the product inside that matters more. While Tulsa was bickering about perfection OKC hosted the Hornets and set itself up for the Thunder. Yes the BOk center is beautiful, but in a few years when the music acts die down, the 500 people that attend the WNBA games, and the few thousand going to a CHL or AFL game will be a shame for that nice of a building. OKC gotta a better bang for its buck!

This is a rational approach to comparison, and I appreciate someone saying something other than, "OMG OKC > Tulsa no contest."

Just like urbanism is without a doubt OKC's biggest issue right now, I think you correctly identified Tulsa's big issue..jobs. Economy. More practical things, things OKC isn't worrying about right now.

Tulsa is steadily hemorrhaging major corporations, one by one. And it's been a really bad last two months up in T-Town. They lost Arena Energy (bought by SandRidge, 500 jobs moving to OKC), HBSC Accounting or whatever (500 jobs lost) and TPD laid off a thousand officers..one of the hardest police layoffs in the country. Look at it in the grander scheme of Downtown Tulsa.. downsizing at IBM, WilTel, Williams, losing Parker, SemGroup going bankrupt, and elsewhere in the Tulsa metro.. Great Plains Airlines going bankrupt, Whirlpool leaving, WorldCom going bankrupt, CITGO leaving..I could go on and on. It's been bad.

But somehow it hasn't been that bad. Overall in January, OKC added 6,000 new jobs remarkably. Top category: Government. Does Tulsa get any government jobs? Of course not, one in almost four (over five) jobs in OKC is government..nowhere near that in Tulsa. However while Tulsa added 6,000 jobs, Tulsa added 2,000--more modest, but it is ALL private jobs in small companies that can grow. Also Tulsa sustained 2-3 years at the beginning of the decade with population loss, but has since backed back and currently Tulsa's population is at 399,000...so it will probably finally go over 400,000 in the 2010 census. The difference though is all of Tulsa's ankle-biting suburbs which are also Oklahoma's 3 fastest-growing cities..Bixby, Jenks, and Owasso, and Jenks has everyone in Oklahoma in its dust in terms of retail development. Broken Arrow is also newly Oklahoma's 3rd largest city, recently eclipsing Norman, and Lawton a few years ago.

So Tulsa isn't "loosing jobs" it's just not adding any high-profile companies, and those high-profile companies are absolutely essential to building community support for downtown. I think for Tulsans, seeing all of the corporations leave left and right, has played a huge role in somewhat turning Tulsans against downtown. What's interesting is how in Tulsa private benefactors, like the Hamm family, Kaiser family, etc etc..keep supporting the local causes, like the river, the ballpark, the arts, etc.

In fact Tulsa has these some sort of resemblances to France, in my opinion, in this way. It's remarkable how Tulsa can basically not "create" economic wealth, not add innovative jobs at the same pace as the competition, and basically be economically stagnant and still retain and even continue to enhance its aesthetic and cultural edge. Why is Tulsa continuing to clean up its inner city, now focusing on the downtown, and still maintaining its excellence elsewhere in the inner city? Simply because that's the way it's always been. Just like how France is economically stagnant and still somehow maintains its high standard of living and cultural "superiority," Tulsa in my opinion is similar in this regard..so they're still a trendsetter culturally and aesthetically even if they're definitely not a trendsetter economically. Economics is Tulsa's shortfall, even if they have a significantly higher average income than OKC (and slightly lower cost of living, actually).

[ljbab728]

Broken Arrow is also newly Oklahoma's 3rd largest city, recently eclipsing Norman, and Lawton a few years ago.

Actually, unless Broken Arrow has added around 10,000 people since January, it's just the fourth largest city.

Tulsa World: BA growth second in state

[Spartan]

Those numbers are surprisingly low..I remember discussions on my old forums where we talked about BA having over 100,000 and projected to be over 110,000 by 2010. Also ranking 2nd in growth is disingenuous because they're looking at total number..not percentage growth. The article also cites Owasso at 27,000...that is not true. Owasso is over 40,000 within the Owasso fence line. Tulsa suburbs are different from OKC suburbs in that they really control any open land. They have all annexed a thin ring of land beyond the corporal city limits to allow them to expand over Tulsa..Owasso, Jenks, Bixby, BA, and Glenpool have fencelines..I think Skiatook does too. So sometimes you see "fenceline" population numbers and "corporal limits" numbers which is what the census will reflect, not including those unincorporated areas 100% surrounded by the suburb, and part of that suburb for all intents and purposes.

[ljbab728]

Those numbers are surprisingly low..I remember discussions on my old forums where we talked about BA having over 100,000 and projected to be over 110,000 by 2010. Also ranking 2nd in growth is disingenuous because they're looking at total number..not percentage growth. The article also cites Owasso at 27,000...that is not true. Owasso is over 40,000 within the Owasso fence line. Tulsa suburbs are different from OKC suburbs in that they really control any open land. They have all annexed a thin ring of land beyond the corporal city limits to allow them to expand over Tulsa..Owasso, Jenks, Bixby, BA, and Glenpool have fencelines..I think Skiatook does too. So sometimes you see "fenceline" population numbers and "corporal limits" numbers which is what the census will reflect, not including those unincorporated areas 100% surrounded by the suburb, and part of that suburb for all intents and purposes.

Spartan, I'm sure when the census bureau makes estimates they take everything into account being within the city limits. City populations aren't figured differently for OKC suburbs as compared to Tulsa suburbs. It is based strictly on what is in the city limits. Having discussions about what a city's population may be at some point doesn't make it so. Percentage population growth versus exact numbers will always be two different issues. I guess we won't have to wait too long to find out what is accurate since the new census is under way. If you want to include unincorporated areas within city limits in that city's population you are free to do that but it will never be done that way officially. Making that argument would mean that OKC could include Bethany, Warr Acres, and Mustang within it's "fenceline limits" if it wanted to. I don't see the difference. The areas surrounded by Owasso, Jenks, Bixby, Broken Arrow, etc., aren't any more a part of the city population than those cities are in relation to OKC.

[OUGrad05]

This is a rational approach to comparison, and I appreciate someone saying something other than, "OMG OKC > Tulsa no contest."

Just like urbanism is without a doubt OKC's biggest issue right now, I think you correctly identified Tulsa's big issue..jobs. Economy. More practical things, things OKC isn't worrying about right now.

Tulsa is steadily hemorrhaging major corporations, one by one. And it's been a really bad last two months up in T-Town. They lost Arena Energy (bought by SandRidge, 500 jobs moving to OKC), HBSC Accounting or whatever (500 jobs lost) and TPD laid off a thousand officers..one of the hardest police layoffs in the country. Look at it in the grander scheme of Downtown Tulsa.. downsizing at IBM, WilTel, Williams, losing Parker, SemGroup going bankrupt, and elsewhere in the Tulsa metro.. Great Plains Airlines going bankrupt, Whirlpool leaving, WorldCom going bankrupt, CITGO leaving..I could go on and on. It's been bad.

But somehow it hasn't been that bad. Overall in January, OKC added 6,000 new jobs remarkably. Top category: Government. Does Tulsa get any government jobs? Of course not, one in almost four (over five) jobs in OKC is government..nowhere near that in Tulsa. However while Tulsa added 6,000 jobs, Tulsa added 2,000--more modest, but it is ALL private jobs in small companies that can grow. Also Tulsa sustained 2-3 years at the beginning of the decade with population loss, but has since backed back and currently Tulsa's population is at 399,000...so it will probably finally go over 400,000 in the 2010 census. The difference though is all of Tulsa's ankle-biting suburbs which are also Oklahoma's 3 fastest-growing cities..Bixby, Jenks, and Owasso, and Jenks has everyone in Oklahoma in its dust in terms of retail development. Broken Arrow is also newly Oklahoma's 3rd largest city, recently eclipsing Norman, and Lawton a few years ago.

So Tulsa isn't "loosing jobs" it's just not adding any high-profile companies, and those high-profile companies are absolutely essential to building community support for downtown. I think for Tulsans, seeing all of the corporations leave left and right, has played a huge role in somewhat turning Tulsans against downtown. What's interesting is how in Tulsa private benefactors, like the Hamm family, Kaiser family, etc etc..keep supporting the local causes, like the river, the ballpark, the arts, etc.

Not sure where you got your job loss numbers but you're wrong. TPD at its highest never even had a thousand officers to layoff. They laid off about 145 officers, hired back 29 of them and could hire back some more.

HSBC was a call center, we lost over 400 jobs on that one. Additionally American Airlines is relocating some maintenance jobs to DFW area so that will be another 200 higher paying jobs lost.

Arena Resources did not have 500 employees, not even close. They had about 70 employees. All told the last couple months we've lost about a thousand jobs that have been made public.

TPD did not layoff a thousand officers.

[LakeEffect]

Those numbers are surprisingly low..I remember discussions on my old forums where we talked about BA having over 100,000 and projected to be over 110,000 by 2010. Also ranking 2nd in growth is disingenuous because they're looking at total number..not percentage growth. The article also cites Owasso at 27,000...that is not true. Owasso is over 40,000 within the Owasso fence line. Tulsa suburbs are different from OKC suburbs in that they really control any open land. They have all annexed a thin ring of land beyond the corporal city limits to allow them to expand over Tulsa..Owasso, Jenks, Bixby, BA, and Glenpool have fencelines..I think Skiatook does too. So sometimes you see "fenceline" population numbers and "corporal limits" numbers which is what the census will reflect, not including those unincorporated areas 100% surrounded by the suburb, and part of that suburb for all intents and purposes.

What's your source on this "fenceline" vs. "corporal limits". I've never heard of it before... Also, what does "in that they really control any open land" mean? When you say "expand over Tulsa", do you mean on Tulsa's land, or outside of Tulsa?

[jbrown84]

The Mayo is having a very tough time. They've just lost their GM and Director of Sales and some other staff. The opening of the Atlas-Life Courtyard and the Holiday Inn will not help...

that is just a poorly laid out facility with a lot of flash, kind of like Dallas itself.

Love it!

[Spartan]

What's your source on this "fenceline" vs. "corporal limits". I've never heard of it before... Also, what does "in that they really control any open land" mean? When you say "expand over Tulsa", do you mean on Tulsa's land, or outside of Tulsa?

Tulsa World: Settling near Owasso: Stone Canyon builders plan up to 2,100 homes

Here's a good look at Owasso growth/fenceline strategy.

[ljbab728]

Tulsa World: Settling near Owasso: Stone Canyon builders plan up to 2,100 homes

Here's a good look at Owasso growth/fenceline strategy.

It mentions that some of this area will eventually be annexed into Owasso and then it will be provided with city services. At that point it can be included in Owasso's population. You're prevous point was that areas included within a "fenceline" should already be included in the population. Oklahoma City made this type of development basically irrelevant in our area many years ago by annexing massive amounts of land before the suburban areas could grab it in this manner.

[HOT ROD]

a HUGE mistake on OKC's part. ....

[BG918]

Arena Resources did not have 500 employees, not even close. They had about 70 employees. All told the last couple months we've lost about a thousand jobs that have been made public.

Arena employs 30 at their corporate office in south Tulsa. Most of these people have been offered jobs in OKC, or they will take other jobs in Tulsa. The CEO has not decided if he will relocate to OKC or stay in Tulsa (and possibly start a new company). They have around 100 employees in the field in TX and NM.

The 600 call center employees at HSBC Finance will either move to the other HSBC facilities or move to one of several Tulsa call centers most of which are hiring according to the TW article.

None of the layoff in the past two months have affected employment in downtown Tulsa.

[OUGrad05]

Arena employs 30 at their corporate office in south Tulsa. Most of these people have been offered jobs in OKC, or they will take other jobs in Tulsa. The CEO has not decided if he will relocate to OKC or stay in Tulsa (and possibly start a new company). They have around 100 employees in the field in TX and NM.

The 600 call center employees at HSBC Finance will either move to the other HSBC facilities or move to one of several Tulsa call centers most of which are hiring according to the TW article.

None of the layoff in the past two months have affected employment in downtown Tulsa.

Friend of mine works for arena and said there were 54 that worked in the Tulsa office so I put 70 to be generous in case he was wrong.

And yes they were all offered positiosn in OKC.

And I never mentioned downtown tulsa, I work downtown and like it a lot

Never got an exact number at HSBC, all I read and saw on tv was 400+

[Spartan]

Friend of mine works for arena and said there were 54 that worked in the Tulsa office so I put 70 to be generous in case he was wrong.

And yes they were all offered positiosn in OKC.

That's great for us. New residents.

Or for Edmond, or wherever they live..

[OUGrad05]

That's great for us. New residents.

Or for Edmond, or wherever they live..

For you guys sure, but in the Tulsa area we can't really continue to bleed good middle class and upper middle class jobs

[HOT ROD]

There's also the possibility that, at least in the short term, many of the transfer'ees could commute to the city but still live in tulsa. They could 'easily' purchase an apartment or condo downtown and stay during the week, but go home for the weekend. There's even some who might even drive or bus daily back and forth for what I would assume to be a very short time.

Anyways, sorry it had to happen but I am glad SandRidge and OKC is growing. Maybe we can get some of that Tulsa spirit and change some of OKC for the better. Again, OKC is good at building big boulders, but we need more small pebbles that Tulsa is good at - which will make OKC a much more attractive and competitive city.

I mean, really - as Artist on TulsaNow put it; OKC should have always been ahead since it is much larger. This is no offense to Tulsa, it is just a realism that OKC had started to realize only 15 years ago.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

This is a rational approach to comparison, and I appreciate someone saying something other than, "OMG OKC > Tulsa no contest."

Just like urbanism is without a doubt OKC's biggest issue right now, I think you correctly identified Tulsa's big issue..jobs. Economy. More practical things, things OKC isn't worrying about right now.

Tulsa is steadily hemorrhaging major corporations, one by one. And it's been a really bad last two months up in T-Town. They lost Arena Energy (bought by SandRidge, 500 jobs moving to OKC), HBSC Accounting or whatever (500 jobs lost) and TPD laid off a thousand officers..one of the hardest police layoffs in the country. Look at it in the grander scheme of Downtown Tulsa.. downsizing at IBM, WilTel, Williams, losing Parker, SemGroup going bankrupt, and elsewhere in the Tulsa metro.. Great Plains Airlines going bankrupt, Whirlpool leaving, WorldCom going bankrupt, CITGO leaving..I could go on and on. It's been bad.

But somehow it hasn't been that bad. Overall in January, OKC added 6,000 new jobs remarkably. Top category: Government. Does Tulsa get any government jobs? Of course not, one in almost four (over five) jobs in OKC is government..nowhere near that in Tulsa. However while Tulsa added 6,000 jobs, Tulsa added 2,000--more modest, but it is ALL private jobs in small companies that can grow. Also Tulsa sustained 2-3 years at the beginning of the decade with population loss, but has since backed back and currently Tulsa's population is at 399,000...so it will probably finally go over 400,000 in the 2010 census. The difference though is all of Tulsa's ankle-biting suburbs which are also Oklahoma's 3 fastest-growing cities..Bixby, Jenks, and Owasso, and Jenks has everyone in Oklahoma in its dust in terms of retail development. Broken Arrow is also newly Oklahoma's 3rd largest city, recently eclipsing Norman, and Lawton a few years ago.

So Tulsa isn't "loosing jobs" it's just not adding any high-profile companies, and those high-profile companies are absolutely essential to building community support for downtown. I think for Tulsans, seeing all of the corporations leave left and right, has played a huge role in somewhat turning Tulsans against downtown. What's interesting is how in Tulsa private benefactors, like the Hamm family, Kaiser family, etc etc..keep supporting the local causes, like the river, the ballpark, the arts, etc.

In fact Tulsa has these some sort of resemblances to France, in my opinion, in this way. It's remarkable how Tulsa can basically not "create" economic wealth, not add innovative jobs at the same pace as the competition, and basically be economically stagnant and still retain and even continue to enhance its aesthetic and cultural edge. Why is Tulsa continuing to clean up its inner city, now focusing on the downtown, and still maintaining its excellence elsewhere in the inner city? Simply because that's the way it's always been. Just like how France is economically stagnant and still somehow maintains its high standard of living and cultural "superiority," Tulsa in my opinion is similar in this regard..so they're still a trendsetter culturally and aesthetically even if they're definitely not a trendsetter economically. Economics is Tulsa's shortfall, even if they have a significantly higher average income than OKC (and slightly lower cost of living, actually).

If i were from tulsa, I would not want to be compared with france. That is degrading.

[ljbab728]

a HUGE mistake on OKC's part. ....

I totally disagree. This was the most farsighted thing that has ever occured to protect Oklahoma City's future.

[HOT ROD]

how, by letting statistics prevent OKC from ever hosting any big league retail?

tell us of your infinate wisdom lj, just how OKC has benefitted from the annexation of 300 square miles of absolutely nothing......