GE may move its HQ after Connecticut passed state corporate tax increases.

[BoulderSooner]

They already pay more than their fair share. As you have said the socialism is strong in this thread. Even from the "conservative" Kerry

[onthestrip]

Its hard to say the ultra wealthy already pay their fair share when its the head of a household that makes $40,000/year ends up paying more to taxes as a percentage of their income than the one percenters.

And its not as if the lower and middle class wouldnt love the opportunity to pay more in taxes, its that their employers arent paying them better wages.

[Bellaboo]

Its hard to say the ultra wealthy already pay their fair share when its the head of a household that makes $40,000/year ends up paying more to taxes as a percentage of their income than the one percenters.

And its not as if the lower and middle class wouldnt love the opportunity to pay more in taxes, its that their employers arent paying them better wages.

Maybe they should work for themselves ? I always contended if a person was going to really bust their butt, they should be self employed instead of working for the other guy.

[TU 'cane]

Many of us are missing the elephant in the room in regard to this discussion.
It's not even so much about the employers and the wages they pay. I've always contended that I can complain and I can request higher pay, but ultimately, if I'm not happy, I need to move on. I'm not forced to work here or there for this or that wage.

But, what I was referring to, is the rate of inflation.
Inflation is what causes us to lose our buying power, what was worth $20 in the 1980s, just for example, is $40 or more now. This a major reason why people are poorer and why the income gap is widening. Inflation doesn't hit the rich like it hits the middle and lower classes of society.

[onthestrip]

[/B]

Maybe they should work for themselves ? I always contended if a person was going to really bust their butt, they should be self employed instead of working for the other guy.

Sure, they can go work on their own, even though it is so much easier said than done (takes money, time and resources that one doesnt have). But that still doesnt do anything about the low paying job that still exists and will be filled by another head of the household who can barely provide for his family at that amount.

Its the same for people who argue against minimum wage increases. Theres some uninformed person saying the low wage employee should get more skills/more education/find a better job. OK, but its not like the min wage job will go away. It will still exist and it will be filled by another who cant work enough hours to provide for themselves or family, thus relying on govt assistance.

[Just the facts]

This jusy in - the people we are talking about, the 0.1%, didn't get in that bracket via capitalism. They got there by manipulating the government and exploiting the people. Why is anyone Okay with that?

[Just the facts]

I hate the word 'inflation' because it is a word used to trick the populace. Since the inception of the federal reserve, the US dollar has lost 94% of its value. That is deflation.

The Fed has a mandate to maintain 2% inflation every year. Imagine if people really knew that meant the Fed attempts to devalue the money already earned by 2%.

[Motley]

But JTF, isn't the opposite even worse? If you have "deflation," supply outstrips demand and leads to layoffs and a dead economy. Doesn't a low inflation mean higher demand and increased productivity and opportunity for employment?

[Urbanized]

This jusy in - the people we are talking about, the 0.1%, didn't get in that bracket via capitalism. They got there by manipulating the government and exploiting the people. Why is anyone Okay with that?

Really? What a general statement THAT is. I look at this list and see the American dream; a ton of people literally self-made - several of them started businesses in their own friggin garages fercryingoutloud - and some first-generation descendants of the same type of self-made entrepreneurs: The Richest People in America List - Forbes

But anyway, I get it; if someone has lots of money surely they didn't do anything to deserve such good fortune.

[Just the facts]

Come on Urbanized. Bill Gates didn't make billions off his garage startup. He made it on Wall Street.

[gopokes88]

Really? What a general statement THAT is. I look at this list and see the American dream; a ton of people literally self-made - several of them started businesses in their own friggin garages fercryingoutloud - and some first-generation descendants of the same type of self-made entrepreneurs: The Richest People in America List - Forbes

But anyway, I get it; if someone has lots of money surely they didn't do anything to deserve such good fortune.

900 of the 1300 worlds billionaires were created in the last 20 years. People move up and down in income classes constantly. That's something that is never reported on. People are moving up and down in classes. The recession took out a lot of people and the recovery made a different set of people rise in income.

Sure there is a very very tiny portion of society that will live and die then pass on to their kids a silver spoon, but it's such an insanely small percentage. This notion that the elite stays the elite is a farce.

Billionaire boom may be ending

Jtf is a conservative in name only evidenced by the fact he subscribes to very little of what conservatives believe.

Oh and read an economics book, low inflation is good for an economy. If a currency stagnates and starts to deflate it quickly stops being $20 and starts being a piece of paper with a 2 and a 0 on it.

Something the millienials have embraced that the older generation hasn't is entrepnuership. You used to be able to work for a company your whole life, probably join a union, and be setup with a nice retirement. That's not how it works anymore. The economy has advanced past that. It will never go back without serious pain. We're a technologically advanced global economy now. If you want to go back to those days, go move to Greece. Market forces will inflict unimaginable amounts of pain on economies that try to fight it.

2 ways to win in today's world.
1. Education. Doctor, accountant, IT, engineer, lawyer (although that bubble is bursting).
2. Own something. On every transaction there's a side that makes money and a side that loses money. Whether you start a company, own rent homes or buy stocks, be on the side that makes money off the transaction, don't always be the consumer.

That's it. Those are the ways to do it in a modern economy.

[gopokes88]

https://www.aei.org/publication/trac...come-mobility/
That's what I was looking for. This isn't the hunger games. People move up and down frequently.

Jamie dimon is the poster boy for the elite. His grandfather? Greek immigrant.

[Just the facts]

Sure there is a very very tiny portion of society that will live and die then pass on to their kids a silver spoon, but it's such an insanely small percentage. This notion that the elite stays the elite is a farce.

That insanely small percentage are the people we are talking about.

[zookeeper]

Really? What a general statement THAT is. I look at this list and see the American dream; a ton of people literally self-made - several of them started businesses in their own friggin garages fercryingoutloud - and some first-generation descendants of the same type of self-made entrepreneurs: The Richest People in America List - Forbes

But anyway, I get it; if someone has lots of money surely they didn't do anything to deserve such good fortune.

It's interesting you would support the corporatocracy that these millionaires and billionaires have given us. They manipulate the tax code and pay a far less percentage of taxes than most small businesses. Wall Street over Main Street. Your water taxi business, for example, is not what anybody here has a problem with. Nobody is condemning "success" - we are condemning EXCESS which hurts you and other small businesses right along with everyone else.

[Just the facts]

It's interesting you would support the corporatocracy that these millionaires and billionaires have given us. They manipulate the tax code and pay a far less percentage of taxes than most small businesses. Wall Street over Main Street. Your water taxi business, for example, is not what anybody here has a problem with. Nobody is condemning "success" - we are condemning EXCESS which hurts you and other small businesses right along with everyone else.

For every penny GE benefits from the tax code, the water taxi and every other small business has to make up for it.

[Just the facts]

But JTF, isn't the opposite even worse? If you have "deflation," supply outstrips demand and leads to layoffs and a dead economy. Doesn't a low inflation mean higher demand and increased productivity and opportunity for employment?

What is inflating and what is deflating? If I get paid today and put that money in a savings account it deflates. So why should I save money if it constantly loses value? The answer is - I shouldn't save, and neither should anyone else. However, we have a debt based currency and the only way new money is created is through new loans. However, loans are limited by the amount of money in savings accounts. See the problem? We have an unsustainable currency system (and it is one that I think will collapse in the next 5 years)....but that is a different subject.

[Jim Kyle]

They got there by manipulating the government and exploiting the people.

I think many, if not most, of them got there by skillful selection of grandparents or perhaps great-grandparents -- Hunt, Rockefeller, Morgan, Kennedy, Hutton, and so on come to mind.

[hoya]

Billionaires lobby to protect themselves. They lobby to protect their businesses, to pay lower taxes. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

The problem is that what is good for the billionaire is not necessarily what is good for the country.

If it is okay for the billionaire to lobby to protect their own interests, then it must be fine for the rest of us to lobby against those interests. Sometimes we will disagree with the very rich.

--

I don't hate the rich. I don't want to see the government rob them just because they are successful, to try and redistribute the wealth. I am not a Communist. But when I see a billionaire is paying a much lower percentage of the money he makes than I pay, then I have a problem. The very rich have managed to shift their investments to pay as little as possible, and they've been very good at it. I don't blame them for this -- I would do the same thing. But I'm not a socialist just for wanting to close those loopholes.

[Just the facts]

That is where we differ, I do blame them. They simultaneously avoid taxes and help create excessive government spending. They really are having their cake and eating it to.

[Bellaboo]

There's not a soul out there that can't live the American dream. Everyone on this board can go buy GRDA bonds (or others), which are state and federal tax free. It's open to all, just do it. Who's holding you back other than yourself. I've worked as many as three jobs at once over the years and have done fairly well. As my almost 92 year old mother says - It's not what you earn, it's what you save. A persons lifestyle may be the problem, my tax accountant says he does a lot of taxes for doctors who make 400,000.00 a year, but their problem is they'll spend 410,000.00 in doing so. Wake up folks.

[zookeeper]

There's not a soul out there that can't live the American dream. Everyone on this board can go buy GRDA bonds (or others), which are state and federal tax free. It's open to all, just do it. Who's holding you back other than yourself. I've worked as many as three jobs at once over the years and have done fairly well. As my almost 92 year old mother says - It's not what you earn, it's what you save. A persons lifestyle may be the problem, my tax accountant says he does a lot of taxes for doctors who make 400,000.00 a year, but their problem is they'll spend 410,000.00 in doing so. Wake up folks.

Help me understand....is this your proposal to stop the concentration of ALL the wealth in our country rising to the top 1/10th of 1%?

- Buy Grand River Muni Bonds
- Work three jobs
- Remembering it's not what we earn, it's what we save.
(God bless your wonderful mother, I'm sure she's the best - but you have to earn enough to be able to save enough to make a difference.)
- If you make $400,000.00 a year, don't spend $410,000

Bellaboo, I appreciate your sentiment with the above. But it addresses nothing we are talking about.

[Bellaboo]

Help me understand....is this your proposal to stop the concentration of ALL the wealth in our country rising to the top 1/10th of 1%?

- Buy Grand River Muni Bonds
- Work three jobs
- Remembering it's not what we earn, it's what we save.
(God bless your wonderful mother, I'm sure she's the best - but you have to earn enough to be able to save enough to make a difference.)
- If you make $400,000.00 a year, don't spend $410,000

Bellaboo, I appreciate your sentiment with the above. But it addresses nothing we are talking about.

My mother was a school teacher, my dad died in 1980 and she remarried to a man that was in the lower tier of income. He just turned 92. I'm the trustee on their accounts. They have in excess of a million dollars in their estates.

What I'm trying to say is to not get too excited about something you and I are not going to control (someone else's wealth). Instead of complaining about their wealth, build your own, it can be done.

[TU 'cane]

I hate the word 'inflation' because it is a word used to trick the populace. Since the inception of the federal reserve, the US dollar has lost 94% of its value. That is deflation.

The Fed has a mandate to maintain 2% inflation every year. Imagine if people really knew that meant the Fed attempts to devalue the money already earned by 2%.

For argument's sake:

"Inflation refers to a general increase in the price of goods and services. This occurs when demand for these items grows faster than the supply. The result is more money chasing fewer goods, and therefore prices increase."

Inflation, Deflation and Stagflation - CFP | Investopedia

In our case, supply hasn't outgrown demand, or even vice versa, no, no. The supply of money pumped into the economy by the Fed is what has led to inflation. Thus, that is where we see "too much money chasing too few goods." Or even excess money supply chasing a relatively normal amount of goods as determined by the market. The dollar loses value and that translates to goods and services becoming more expensive while our wages remain the same.

There is no word trickery here.

What is inflating and what is deflating? If I get paid today and put that money in a savings account it deflates. So why should I save money if it constantly loses value? The answer is - I shouldn't save, and neither should anyone else. However, we have a debt based currency and the only way new money is created is through new loans. However, loans are limited by the amount of money in savings accounts. See the problem? We have an unsustainable currency system (and it is one that I think will collapse in the next 5 years)....but that is a different subject.

I take it you are fan of Keynes? Have you taken Mr. Krugman's advice and broken all your windows? After all, it's in your best interest, and mine, for all of us to break our windows. This creates jobs and services to be provided by the glass manufacturers and all subsequent relations to the process.
Economies grow with savings, not excess spending. A consumer economy becomes one dimensional, that's what the U.S. has become, when our only goal is to spend more, save less.

And I'm being light hearted here, this is just a conversation we're having.

Billionaires lobby to protect themselves. They lobby to protect their businesses, to pay lower taxes. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

The problem is that what is good for the billionaire is not necessarily what is good for the country.

If it is okay for the billionaire to lobby to protect their own interests, then it must be fine for the rest of us to lobby against those interests. Sometimes we will disagree with the very rich.

Indeed, I would agree there is nothing inherently wrong with anyone, common person, rich person, or business lobbying for lower taxes. I find nothing wrong with that at all.
My personal issue, however, is when the corporations gain a complete foot hold within the political sphere of influence that leaves the common man without a voice. And before anyone argues that latter part, I've seen and experienced it myself, just try contacting Senators Inhofe, Coburn (back when he was in office), or now Lankford on certain issues and read their responses.
What I basically see between the lines in some of their responses is "this lobby/corporation has thrown money at me and has spoken with me here in D.C. and I have become convinced by their motives. I'm going to give you some fluff about following the Constitution and past precedent. Sorry, citizen, you'll have to keep paying your share, while we figure out how to get them to pay less here or there."

Again, while some of my language may instigate the class warfare mantra, I'm not really intending for it to. I'm simply saying that the current system is one of Cronyism/Corporatism, and it's clear where you and I are on this totem pole.

--

I don't hate the rich. I don't want to see the government rob them just because they are successful, to try and redistribute the wealth. I am not a Communist. But when I see a billionaire is paying a much lower percentage of the money he makes than I pay, then I have a problem. The very rich have managed to shift their investments to pay as little as possible, and they've been very good at it. I don't blame them for this -- I would do the same thing. But I'm not a socialist just for wanting to close those loopholes.

This is a state of mind some of us are in, as indicated by my response above. A catch-22 of sorts?
I don't want the government to rob anyone, especially me. But when I see what is happening in D.C. and who has the upper hand in negotiations and policy making, it's the corporations... It's the wealthy, it's not us, the common citizens. That's where I have my problem.

[ou48A]

There's not a soul out there that can't live the American dream. Everyone on this board can go buy GRDA bonds (or others), which are state and federal tax free. It's open to all, just do it. Who's holding you back other than yourself. I've worked as many as three jobs at once over the years and have done fairly well. As my almost 92 year old mother says - It's not what you earn, it's what you save. A persons lifestyle may be the problem, my tax accountant says he does a lot of taxes for doctors who make 400,000.00 a year, but their problem is they'll spend 410,000.00 in doing so. Wake up folks.

^That’s exactly correct…. Congratulations to your mother for her life time of discipline. She has no doubt passed wise advice on to you.
People who do not waste money and live well below their means in spite of the fact they do not make lot money via their employment, with wise investments over time can save / earn in well in excess of a million dollars… but it requires a type discipline over long periods of time that we don’t see enough of today.

People who live frugally over a lifetime should not be punished for the life style they have chosen… There successes should be commended and not demonized for having too much!

It is what you save and a person’s lifestyle is usually at the root of most personal money problems.

[hoya]

^That’s exactly correct…. Congratulations to your mother for her life time of discipline. She has no doubt passed wise advice on to you.
People who do not waste money and live well below their means in spite of the fact they do not make lot money via their employment, with wise investments over time can save / earn in well in excess of a million dollars… but it requires a type discipline over long periods of time that we don’t see enough of today.

People who live frugally over a lifetime should not be punished for the life style they have chosen… There successes should be commended and not demonized for having too much!

It is what you save and a person’s lifestyle is usually at the root of most personal money problems.

No one is upset at the person who lives frugally and invests their money wisely. I don't know how you could read this thread and come away with that idea. That's like adding 2 and 2 together and getting 9.

No one is upset over the person who has "a million dollars". My 85 year old grandma has about that, from her lifetime of cutting coupons and pinching pennies. The concern is that people who have far, far more than that have influenced the system to the point that they pay little to no taxes. Warren Buffet even said that he paid a lower tax rate than his secretary did.

Buffett says he's still paying lower tax rate than his secretary - Mar. 4, 2013

Are rich people going to be devastated if you increased capital gains taxes on everything over a million dollars to 40%? Of course not. Should how they make their money cause them to pay less taxes simply because it didn't come from a salary at a job? Of course not. When our government is running a $500 billion deficit every year, does it make sense to tax the wealthiest people less than the middle class? Of course not.

Again, I don't hate the rich at all. If I was in their shoes, I would do the exact same thing. But I have the ability to admit that, and also to recognize that functioning that way is not the healthiest way to run a country.