Lindsey Street

[ou48A]

Thanks for the clarification about roundabouts

[kevinpate]

I feel uncertain how a roundabout containing any meaningful center space would be possible in light of what presently exists, in particular the newest housing at the se corner of that intersection.

#trainable; #notopposedmerelyconcerned

[venture]

I feel uncertain how a roundabout containing any meaningful center space would be possible in light of what presently exists, in particular the newest housing at the se corner of that intersection.

#trainable; #notopposedmerelyconcerned

Kevin I agree with you on the space available for the centerpiece of the roundabout. I think a lot is going to come down to number of lanes going around it. They could probably put some art piece that goes over traffic, but then you have to worry about truck clearance. Though I would not be opposed to restricting height of vehicles coming down Lindsey. It would also permit tasteful pedestrian bridges that aren't going to need to be 20' high. However, I also worry about it destroying the look of campus in that part too. Something will have to be done at some point with the all the lights through campus since that can be a big bottleneck.

[ou48A]

I feel uncertain how a roundabout containing any meaningful center space would be possible in light of what presently exists, in particular the newest housing at the se corner of that intersection.

#trainable; #notopposedmerelyconcerned

Since there won't be any center turn lanes at Lindsey and Jenkins this would offer much of the necessary room.

They could also take some space from the corners of the intersection. OU will be tearing down the building on the NE corner.
A small reconfiguration of the intersections approaches could add additional room.

There are many examples of sculptors / art work have been added to enhanced the OU campus over the past 15 to 20 years.


Because of the very close proximity to the coaches statues and Heisman statues this would be an extremely great location fit for a Sooner Schooner sculptor.

The city of Norman has added art work along its trails and some streets. The bridges over I-35 are also examples of city supported art work. As with the above examples this would with out any question add value to the location and along Lindsey street.

The bottom line is if its worth tearing out the existing street to construct a roundabout, its worth doing right by putting up OU themed art work or the roundabouts on Lindsey are just basically another intersection.

[kevinpate]

venture79: Difficult if not impossible to limit big rigs on Jenkins and/or Lindsey. If nothing else, many Division I bands, and I assume teams, transport gear via 18 wheel tractor/trailer rigs.

ou48A: Again, not opposed, merely concerned. It's one thing to mount a statute of an OU president, athlete or one of the many excellent coaches, and quite another to erect a 2X life size Sooner Schooner (or some other significant symbol) that is as large or larger in girth than height.

[ou48A]

venture79: Difficult if not impossible to limit big rigs on Jenkins and/or Lindsey. If nothing else, many Division I bands, and I assume teams, transport gear via 18 wheel tractor/trailer rigs.

ou48A: Again, not opposed, merely concerned. It's one thing to mount a statute of an OU president, athlete or one of the many excellent coaches, and quite another to erect a 2X life size Sooner Schooner (or some other significant symbol) that is as large or larger in girth than height.

I think there may be more land on the Hedington Hall side that would be available for a roundabout than you may believe.
As far as big rig trucks there are not a lot that travel in this area but the police could block off traffic just as they already do on some occasions...but there are other streets available.
Most of the visiting marching bands had been parking their buses on the South Oval. But I'm not sure how that will be handled since part of Asp has been turned into a walk way now?

[mdeand]

I just read this entire thread from beginning to end. I have not been up to speed on the Lindsey Street improvement plans. However, I do live in the neighborhood and turn onto and from Lindsey Street every day.

Some observations: Do any of you live here? It doesn't seem like it, based upon some statements made, such as the concern for property values in the area west of campus. The value of property there is extremely high already. Widening a road there just to inflate property prices even more doesn't make sense. Some persons posting here seem to forget the fact that Lindsey Street serves the people who live in the neighborhood more than visitors to OU. It's access from the nearby homes to the stores on Lindsey Street and access to I-35 for the work commute to OKC.

Who is the improvement to Lindsay supposed to be serving? The assumption seems to be the university and folks who go to football games. That's a fallacy in both respects. Most commuter traffic to OU comes via state highway 9 -- not Lindsey Street. Lindsey Street serves the people who live along it between campus and I-35. It's a real neighborhood. Those trees people want to rip up for the sake of a four-lane road between Berry and Jenkins are some of the reasons people like living there. Very little traffic continues to the east side of Norman via Lindsey. Those pedestrian crossings at Cate Center deter that. There are better avenues to the east side, anyway.

As for football traffic -- big deal. So, it takes 45 minutes to get out of Norman. So what. As a citizen of Norman, I don't care one damn bit. I put up with you clogging my streets, so you put up with sitting in your car for a little time while you listen to the post-game interviews on the radio.

Am I the only one who is stuck on Lindsey Street every morning waiting on traffic to pass so I can turn left? (I laughed out loud at the person who posted that traffic on Lindsey is declining). Without a center turn lane, how is that supposed to happen without backing up traffic behind me? And the idea driving 1/2 mile to the next "roundabout" and come back just to turn left turn is ridiculous. The roundabout idea is ridiculous for any area of Lindsey west of campus. If David Boren wants one on campus, that's fine.

I have lived in this area of Norman for 31 years. My plan is to live here until I die. I like the idea of making the west-of-Berry portion of Lindsey Street more attractive (and bike lanes are needed there and throughout Norman), but let's keep sight of the constituency the street serves.

[venture]

Welcome to the conversation mdeand.

Some observations: Do any of you live here? It doesn't seem like it, based upon some statements made, such as the concern for property values in the area west of campus. The value of property there is extremely high already. Widening a road there just to inflate property prices even more doesn't make sense. Some persons posting here seem to forget the fact that Lindsey Street serves the people who live in the neighborhood more than visitors to OU. It's access from the nearby homes to the stores on Lindsey Street and access to I-35 for the work commute to OKC.

I use to live, for about 10 years, off Pickard and Lindsey - so I'm definitely familiar with the area. The property value information definitely has been posted here and in the OU Projects thread, and probably another 2 or 3 (LOL!) to give a clear idea of how high they actual are in that area now. I think some can lose focus on the fact that there is a fairly large neighborhood that is served by Lindsey itself and not just the university, but it is still one of the main gateways for it.

Who is the improvement to Lindsay supposed to be serving? The assumption seems to be the university and folks who go to football games. That's a fallacy in both respects. Most commuter traffic to OU comes via state highway 9 -- not Lindsey Street. Lindsey Street serves the people who live along it between campus and I-35.

I think it needs to be a balance but a lot of the respect needs to go to those living in the area and how it will impact them. They've chosen to invest in that area already and should definitely have a voice in the project. I think that is why you've seen the initially planned 5 lane solution (2 each way + center turn lane) scrapped for a 4 lane road with a landscaped median.

It's a real neighborhood. Those trees people want to rip up for the sake of a four-lane road between Berry and Jenkins are some of the reasons people like living there. Very little traffic continues to the east side of Norman via Lindsey. Those pedestrian crossings at Cate Center deter that. There are better avenues to the east side, anyway.

I agree that the large number of trees, and how dense the canopy is, is one of the main attractions to that area. We don't have many areas like that in Central OK. I would agree not much traffic continues down Lindsey to the east side, even though I'm one of those since I'm just down Lindsey a little bit further now. I do agree there are better ways to the east side now. The Robinson underpass helps a lot and I take 77/Flood from I-35 to Robinson now instead of going down to Lindsey or Hwy 9.

Am I the only one who is stuck on Lindsey Street every morning waiting on traffic to pass so I can turn left? (I laughed out loud at the person who posted that traffic on Lindsey is declining).

I wouldn't understand why you would laugh when those are hard/measured figures showing traffic in a 10 year decline. Of course that doesn't mean that peak times aren't actually higher as people adjusted their schedules.

Without a center turn lane, how is that supposed to happen without backing up traffic behind me? And the idea driving 1/2 mile to the next "roundabout" and come back just to turn left turn is ridiculous. The roundabout idea is ridiculous for any area of Lindsey west of campus. If David Boren wants one on campus, that's fine.

I would imagine we would see roundabouts at all the existing lights right now between Berry and Campus, which would keep traffic from backing up. Of course that project will entail some property acquisition but not nearly as much as would be needed in 4-lanning the segment. Roundabouts are pretty good solutions. I'm not sure if you are just confused on what we are actually talking about (see the one up on East Main) because they should actually greatly help with the flow of traffic.

[Questor]

I really wish all of you guys could have a conversation about Norman without insulting the other guys' part of town. That goes for both sides of town. I get sick of reading it.

[ou48A]

I just read this entire thread from beginning to end. I have not been up to speed on the Lindsey Street improvement plans. However, I do live in the neighborhood and turn onto and from Lindsey Street every day.

Some observations: Do any of you live here? It doesn't seem like it, based upon some statements made, such as the concern for property values in the area west of campus. The value of property there is extremely high already. Widening a road there just to inflate property prices even more doesn't make sense. Some persons posting here seem to forget the fact that Lindsey Street serves the people who live in the neighborhood more than visitors to OU. It's access from the nearby homes to the stores on Lindsey Street and access to I-35 for the work commute to OKC.

Who is the improvement to Lindsay supposed to be serving? The assumption seems to be the university and folks who go to football games. That's a fallacy in both respects. Most commuter traffic to OU comes via state highway 9 -- not Lindsey Street. Lindsey Street serves the people who live along it between campus and I-35. It's a real neighborhood. Those trees people want to rip up for the sake of a four-lane road between Berry and Jenkins are some of the reasons people like living there. Very little traffic continues to the east side of Norman via Lindsey. Those pedestrian crossings at Cate Center deter that. There are better avenues to the east side, anyway.

As for football traffic -- big deal. So, it takes 45 minutes to get out of Norman. So what. As a citizen of Norman, I don't care one damn bit. I put up with you clogging my streets, so you put up with sitting in your car for a little time while you listen to the post-game interviews on the radio.

Am I the only one who is stuck on Lindsey Street every morning waiting on traffic to pass so I can turn left? (I laughed out loud at the person who posted that traffic on Lindsey is declining). Without a center turn lane, how is that supposed to happen without backing up traffic behind me? And the idea driving 1/2 mile to the next "roundabout" and come back just to turn left turn is ridiculous. The roundabout idea is ridiculous for any area of Lindsey west of campus. If David Boren wants one on campus, that's fine.

I have lived in this area of Norman for 31 years. My plan is to live here until I die. I like the idea of making the west-of-Berry portion of Lindsey Street more attractive (and bike lanes are needed there and throughout Norman), but let's keep sight of the constituency the street serves.

I'm not going to say that your concerns shouldn’t be heard and considered but people are going to need to understand that with billions of dollars at stake the university’s economic impact to the entire state is paramount here.

OU would not be the university it is today with out the donations that have flowed into the entire university because of having the winningest college football program in modern times. Each home football game pumps many millions into the local economy, much of it from out of town and out of state. It's smart to make the trip easy for those folks so they will keep coming back and be engaged in the community and university.

But there are already big donor types who don't come to as many OU games now as they once did because of the increased time it takes to attend games. Insuring this type of future support for something that is so vital to the universitys over all mission trumps those old weed like elm trees along Lindsey and any emotional bond that the tree hungers may have with them. The trees can be essentially replanted and with better choices that would eventually look far better than they do now.

I don't know when it will happen, it may be 20 or 30 years, but eventually, you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsey St will eventually have 2 lanes running in each diction from 1-35 to campus. Lets not waste our time and money. Lets finally get it right this time.

[ljbab728]

But there are already big donor types who don't come to as many OU games now as they once did because of the increased time it takes to attend games.

Do you have evidence about that? I'm a donor although not a big donor. I've been attending OU games since the early 60's and have never based a decision about going to a game based on the time it takes to get there or the amount of traffic. As you should know, any long time OU fan understands all about that and makes arrangements to adjust any plans for attending the game accordingly.

For many years when I parked on the practice field south of the stadium, I knew that it could take an hour or two after the game before I could leave easily. I never minded that. It was just part of the game day experience.

[ou48A]

Do you have evidence about that? I'm a donor although not a big donor. I've been attending OU games since the early 60's and have never based a decision about going to a game based on the time it takes to get there or the amount of traffic. As you should know, any long time OU fan understands all about that and makes arrangements to adjust any plans for attending the game accordingly.

For many years when I parked on the practice field south of the stadium, I knew that it could take an hour or two after the game before I could leave easily. I never minded that. It was just part of the game day experience.

My evidence comes from more than a few conversions over several years at the OKC golf and country club and in Nichols Hills homes... This is not the type of news that's going to be published.


But I wouldn’t miss a home game if I had to crawl home.

[ljbab728]

My evidence comes from more than a few conversions over several years at the OKC golf and country club and in Nichols Hills homes... This is not the type of news that's going to be published.

Perhaps, but I just don't see that as a major issue.

[venture]

Transcript article Sunday on the Lindsey project...

City planners weigh in on Lindsey Street vision for the future » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

City's legal team essentially saying their change to the plans from what was originally in the bond issue is perfectly acceptable based on how they worded it. So it would seem we are well on our way to a new 4-lane divided street with bike lanes, sidewalks, and roundabouts.

[ou48A]

Perhaps, but I just don't see that as a major issue.

Right now I don't see it a major issue either, but it does happen now.....but if it became more significant its going start being a problem that we don't want. A great deal of the money that flows into OU athletics and to the University comes down Lindsey on a game day. Keep this sector of the fan base happy and engaged with OU is important to the university’s future. Reducing the amount of time required to attend OU events helps with some fans. Maybe OU could start letting helicopters land again someplace on campus?

Something else I would like to see is 2 turning lanes and a 2 lane entrance ramp to 1-35 off of Lindsey.
The State of Oklahoma has built this type of entrance to south bound I-35 on HY 51 coming from
Stillwater for OSU events.
With far larger crowds at OU and with far higher presentage of the fan base using I-35, a 2 lane entrance would seem even more justified.

[Geographer]

Something like this would be grand at I-35 and Lindsey.....

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=malta...gl=us&t=h&z=18

[venture]

Something like this would be grand at I-35 and Lindsey.....

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=malta...gl=us&t=h&z=18

That is probably the best example I've seen of what Lindsey will probably look like eventually.

[ou48A]

If the voters knew what some wanted to do with Lindsey the bond issue would have been a much closer vote and may not have passed......The language may allow it but I don't think most Norman voters thought they were voting for anything like what the Walkable and Livable Communities Institute is now talking about.

[Geographer]

If the voters knew what some wanted to do with Lindsey the bond issue would have been a much closer vote and may not have passed......The language may allow it but I don't think most Norman voters thought they were voting for anything like what the Walkable and Livable Communities Institute is now talking about.

IMO, I am glad that we have not officially gone forth with what the engineering firm originally put together.

[HangryHippo]

If the voters knew what some wanted to do with Lindsey the bond issue would have been a much closer vote and may not have passed......The language may allow it but I don't think most Norman voters thought they were voting for anything like what the Walkable and Livable Communities Institute is now talking about.

But it passed and the language allows for it. So time to move forward!

[venture]

But it passed and the language allows for it. So time to move forward!

Indeed. I'm glad they are thinking outside the box and brought in an expert in building streets/gateways for cities. If Lindsey truly is as important as claimed, we need to make sure that it is an attractive gateway into Central Norman. That also means utilizing the latest design methods to reduce congestion, increase safety, and provide for a more walkable community.

[ou48A]

IMO, I am glad that we have not officially gone forth with what the engineering firm originally put together.

Actually I am too, but I think we should expect our city leaders to shoot straight with us.
In this case I'm not sure they knew any better, which is not good either,,,, when your shooting from the hip.

[Geographer]

Actually I am too, but I think we should expect our city leaders to shoot straight with us.
In this case I'm not sure they knew any better, which is not good either,,,, when your shooting from the hip.

I would agree with that statement. I think we place too much faith in numbers based engineering design and not enough on common sense. I will say though that these are voted on by ordinary council members who, generally, have little to no knowledge of street design so they rely on engineering firms. The planning department should know better though and try to make their voice heard more.

[vaflyer]

But it passed and the language allows for it. So time to move forward!

You are correct, the city of Norman can do it. The problem is how such a radical change in design impacts people who voted for and desired a wider Lindsey St. but instead will get something significantly different. Those people feel like their trust in city government has been violated. So the next time the city wants money for something and promotes a certain design, some people will not believe them and vote against it for that reason alone. As the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[Geographer]

You are correct, the city of Norman can do it. The problem is how such a radical change in design impacts people who voted for and desired a wider Lindsey St. but instead will get something significantly different. Those people feel like their trust in city government has been violated. So the next time the city wants money for something and promotes a certain design, some people will not believe them and vote against it for that reason alone. As the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

From the opposite spectrum, maybe people will have MORE faith now since they can see the government opted for a better design once they see the new design physically built..maybe I'm too optimistic in the citizens of Norman haha.