New Downtown Arena

[PoliSciGuy]

Please, let's not gamble with our city's NBA future.

You're correct Pete, we're in a binary position, vote 'Yes' to keep or vote 'No' to reject.

There are no guarantees there will be 'another election' if this December vote fails; the ownership may be weary and ready to cash in on $1.75 billion which Seattle is waiting on OKC to eject their Supersonics. Our NBA franchise will be sold and relocated quicker than you can blink an eye.

A five year extension will cement the NBA in OKC until 2050. We're going to need a new arena. $900 million is a bargain; a new arena beyond 2030 could cost $1.2 billion and we may not have an NBA anchor tenant.
A 'No vote' will be contagious for future MAPS elections especially if our Thunder are gone.

PS: Ask cities like Seattle, Vancouver, Kansas City, Cincinnati and St. Louis who have been waiting 15-55 years for another opportunity to host an NBA franchise.

That is quite the slippery slope fallacy to claim that losing this single election would doom future MAPS elections based upon...what? The lack of an NBA team? The first MAPS passed just fine without the Thunder being here. Furthermore, $900m isn't a bargain. It'd be the single largest outlay of public money for a stadium in the entire NBA. And last I checked, metros like Seattle, Vancouver, Kansas City and Cincinnati have all been doing just fine lately. In fact, Seattle got a brand new stadium for an NHL team that will likely host an expansion NBA team too, all completed by private funding alone.

[OKC_Chipper]

I can't believe the negative reaction on here. There's a lot of people who have forgotten what a pre thunder Oklahoma City was like. So what we're paying a higher percentage than other cities? We have zero shot at any other pro franchise outside of this one. The people who think this vote will fail and then awwe shucks we'll just go back to the drawing board and vote again are completely wrong. The team will undoubtedly be sold and moved within 5 years. I'm not willing to chance that.

[April in the Plaza]

Can we land a Taylor Swift concert if we get a new arena?

Sure, if it holds 100,000 people.

[PhiAlpha]

I can't believe the negative reaction on here. There's a lot of people who have forgotten what a pre thunder Oklahoma City was like. So what we're paying a higher percentage than other cities? We have zero shot at any other pro franchise outside of this one. The people who think this vote will fail and then awwe shucks we'll just go back to the drawing board and vote again are completely wrong. The team will undoubtedly be sold and moved within 5 years. I'm not willing to chance that.

Yeah. I don’t love the proposal as it exists currently but in all likelihood will vote yes on it for this reason

[PhiAlpha]

That is quite the slippery slope fallacy to claim that losing this single election would doom future MAPS elections based upon...what? The lack of an NBA team? The first MAPS passed just fine without the Thunder being here. Furthermore, $900m isn't a bargain. It'd be the single largest outlay of public money for a stadium in the entire NBA. And last I checked, metros like Seattle, Vancouver, Kansas City and Cincinnati have all been doing just fine lately. In fact, Seattle got a brand new stadium for an NHL team that will likely host an expansion NBA team too, all completed by private funding alone.

Again, stop comparing OKC to larger cities that had multiple franchises to lose at the time they lost one and that are in some cases are international destinations. We lose the thunder, we will not have another professional sport franchise in our lifetimes which I know you don’t care about but many of us do.

[PoliSciGuy]

You may want to read up a little bit. I was not the one who made those comparisons to those cities in the first place. And you can make your point without trying to sneak in a little personal attack or dismissive comment at the end of every posting.

[Jake]

If this passes, got to think Memphis/New Orleans will be under a lot of pressure for big new arenas.

[fortpatches]

Experiment: Search for "OKC" on Google Images.

The majority of results relate to the Thunder.

We hashed this over for pages and pages earlier in this thread and it was one of the few things almost everyone agreed on. Anyone denying the role that the Thunder have had in changing our brand and visibility nationally are in denial.

I am not denying that other people care about these things - clearly they do. I didn't say that it hasn't had a role in changing the 'OKC' brand and visibility.

Growing up and until I moved here - the only things I knew OKC for were the bombing and the Omniplex.

Re: the Experiment: Search for "Oklahoma City" on Google Images. Maybe 4 of the top 100 images are for the Thunder - if you include just a picture of the Paycom as being for the Thunder. (when using incognito mode). All a search for "OKC" shows is that the initials of OKC are associated with the Thunder. On incognito mode, I actually get an image for "Oklahoma City Dodgers" before I get one for the Thunder - again, because the term I searched for "Oklahoma City" isn't part of the name of the Thunder.
So that experiment doesn't really tell us anything.

[PhiAlpha]

You may want to read up a little bit. I was not the one who made those comparisons to those cities in the first place. And you can make your point without trying to sneak in a little personal attack or dismissive comment at the end of every posting.

I've followed this thread for its entirety, which you know...and you've routinely made those types of outlandish comparisons throughout the 49 pages of this thread and others. It's borderline gaslighting to act like you just started doing that in response to one post though I get that you were responding to Larmie after reading it.

And it's not a dismissive comment or a personal attack, it's the truth and anyone reading your post history would be able to see that. You care more about the principles than whether we have a professional sports team and that's fine.

[chssooner]

You may want to read up a little bit. I was not the one who made those comparisons to those cities in the first place. And you can make your point without trying to sneak in a little personal attack or dismissive comment at the end of every posting.

KC and Cincy have multiple pro teams. They aren't comparable. Take their 2 teams away, they are not nearly as up there.

[fortpatches]

Please, let's not gamble with our city's NBA future.

You're correct Pete, we're in a binary position, vote 'Yes' to keep or vote 'No' to reject.

There are no guarantees there will be 'another election' if this December vote fails; the ownership may be weary and ready to cash in on $1.75 billion which Seattle is waiting on OKC to eject their Supersonics. Our NBA franchise will be sold and relocated quicker than you can blink an eye.

A five year extension will cement the NBA in OKC until 2050. We're going to need a new arena. $900 million is a bargain; a new arena beyond 2030 could cost $1.2 billion and we may not have an NBA anchor tenant.
A 'No vote' will be contagious for future MAPS elections especially if our Thunder are gone.

PS: Ask cities like Seattle, Vancouver, Kansas City, Cincinnati and St. Louis who have been waiting 15-55 years for another opportunity to host an NBA franchise.

So... a few years ago I did ask KCMO Mayor about hosting an NBA franchise and was told the Sprint Center was already at capacity without an NBA team. He said that it was not something they were pursuing due to the costs involved. But that was about 4 years ago now. But they already have the Royals, Chiefs, and Sporting KC.

[dankrutka]

Well, I guess it's a no from most of the OKCTalk community. Glad we got that settled.

Quit panicking/speculating. This type of thinking is exactly why OKC gets swindled. If people don't immediately appease corporate interest or the rich then we will all pay, the sky will fall, and every company/team will immediately abandon OKC.

I have written several critical posts, and if I were able to vote, I'd likely still vote yes. There's a big difference between raising concerns in the lead up to an election and voting no.

[Pete]

I'm confused, I thought the City would own the arena and lease it to the Thunder. If that's correct, then who would the city be donating the land to? Or will the Thunder be partners with the City in the ownership of the building?

Just saying that even when land is part of a project, the value is always factored in.

And if we build the new arena on the Cox Site, there is the opportunity cost of not using that land for some other development, as it was originally slated to be part of the CBD expansion per consultants hired by the City.

[fortpatches]

Just saying that even when land is part of a project, the value is always factored in.

And if we build the new arena on the Cox Site, there is the opportunity cost of not using that land for some other development, as it was originally slated to be part of the CBD expansion per consultants hired by the City.

What expansion is this?

[Mesta Parker]

A lot of discussion today about "backroom" deals.

Coincidentally there is an opinion piece in the NY Times today titled, "A Hidden Reason Cities Fall Apart'. Per the article, one reason among others; the "erosion of local establishment and the loss of civic and corporate elites" since the late 1970's. Local elites' backroom deals, while they benefit the elites, also benefit their communities because the elites have a "shared economic interest in their communities" They know that if their city fails, so do their businesses. As local banks and corporation were acquired by national or international corporations, local leadership was lost as leadership moved away to a new corporate home or lost its autonomy to make final decisions, i.e. the CEO was now a regional manager. When local leadership is lost, the know how and prestige to advance initiatives is lost also Much more info in the article.

Is this backroom deal a good one, I don't know. But don't assume it is bad, just because it is a backroom deal. Be glad OKC still has plenty of local civic and business leadership with an interest in moving the city forward and we have initiatives such as the new arena to debate. Some other cities are not as fortunate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/o...ittsburgh.html

[Pete]

What expansion is this?

The Alliance commissioned a study several years ago and the recommendation by the consultants was that the old Cox Center site would be used mainly as mid- to high-rise office as an expansion of the central business district:

[Laramie]

Quit panicking/speculating. This type of thinking is exactly why OKC gets swindled. If people don't immediately appease corporate interest or the rich then we will all pay, the sky will fall, and every company/team will immediately abandon OKC.

I have written several critical posts, and if I were able to vote, I'd likely still vote yes. There's a big difference between raising concerns in the lead up to an election and voting no.

Thank you, Dankrutka

[scottk]

Here's my hangup, we got a skeleton arena for $80-90 million about 20 years ago. It was "good enough" to get a professional franchise here, and yes 80 million was a bargain even in 2002. Then we (OKC citizens) invested another $200 or so million in making the arena more "hospitable" once the team moved in with some revenue generating areas for team ownership (nicer food options, fancier toilets, bigger scoreboard, etc)

Now, for $900 million we are building another 18,000 seat arena (presumably across the street) with a bigger concourse and slightly larger seats and a lot of amenities that most of us will never have access to? For the average fan, what will the difference be? I've been to Thunder Games, but never in a suite, court side, VIP access, etc. I watch the game from a seat in the 100 or 300 section. For the average fan is a game for the Mavericks at the American Airlines Center that much better of an experience than Paycom Center? Pretty much every NBA arena has the same setup, lower bowl, suite level, upper bowl. For the majority of us who go to events in the arena, what changes?

Do I think the Thunder have a positive impact on they city? Yes.

Will I be a yes vote, yeah, hesitantly, I want to keep the Thunder here, but man, it's gonna cost.

[Teo9969]

There are always price increases and add-ons. Nothing ever becomes less expensive once they start.

I fully expect this project to end up costing well over $1B just based on the very conservative numbers being presented now.

But what is this project? $1.3B buys way more than just an arena especially if there are no land costs. Sure, the Cox teardown will probably be costly, but I feel like we deserve to have a major category budget/square footage usage drawn up:

Teardown
Court
Bowl & Suites
Concourse
Retail/Restaurant (# Units and estimated square footage)
Incorporated Outdoor Space
Parking
Add'l amenities such as residential
Etc.etc.

If the presented amenities come in at $900M and seems like good value, then I'm comfortable with cost overruns and a cushion that can be socked away for future upgrades all inclusive in what will ultimately be close to $1.5B in collections. But if they are just saying "an arena" that's not enough to believe we have a quality vision for what this needs to look like.

[BoulderSooner]

If this passes, got to think Memphis/New Orleans will be under a lot of pressure for big new arenas.

memphis is getting ready to do a 350-400 mil dollar renovation (the state is paying for a lot of it)

[Pete]

But what is this project? $1.3B buys way more than just an arena especially if there are no land costs. Sure, the Cox teardown will probably be costly, but I feel like we deserve to have a major category budget/square footage usage drawn up:

Teardown
Court
Bowl & Suites
Concourse
Retail/Restaurant (# Units and estimated square footage)
Incorporated Outdoor Space
Parking
Add'l amenities such as residential
Etc.etc.

If the presented amenities come in at $900M and seems like good value, then I'm comfortable with cost overruns and a cushion that can be socked away for future upgrades all inclusive in what will ultimately be close to $1.5B in collections. But if they are just saying "an arena" that's not enough to believe we have a quality vision for what this needs to look like.

I believe they'll be conceptual plans presented before the Dec. 12th vote.

[BoulderSooner]

Growing up and until I moved here - the only things I knew OKC for were the bombing and the Omniplex.

where did you move here from? and clearly you are not a sports person??

[Shortsyeararound]

The “penny” cost I don’t mind at all, for this increase many years ago has bought and brought about so much change. If you want to gripe about something that most of us have paid since it was created go ahead, but I’d glady pay a 2 penny increase if they asked just to continue the positive changes. There is always the complainer when it comes to sports in college (they get too much money over academics and so on) but this is a major sport and if it is not funded we will lose them. I don’t know about y’all but I don’t want OKC to be on the “loser of team city” list at all.

[Mesta Parker]

Now, for $900 million we are building another 18,000 seat arena (presumably across the street) with a bigger concourse and slightly larger seats and a lot of amenities that most of us will never have access to? For the average fan, what will the difference be? I've been to Thunder Games, but never in a suite, court side, VIP access, etc. I watch the game from a seat in the 100 or 300 section. For the average fan is a game for the Mavericks at the American Airlines Center that much better of an experience than Paycom Center? Pretty much every NBA arena has the same setup, lower bowl, suite level, upper bowl. For the majority of us who go to events in the arena, what changes?

Maybe I am not the typical Thunder fan, but this pretty much describes me for the last 15 years. Arrive about 10 minutes before tip off, buy an overpriced beer, head directly to my seat in section 109, watch the game, then go home. Probably will have the same M.O. in the new arena, so the overall experience will not be much different for me. Never the less, I do support the new arena even though i will not use all the amenities, just like i supported other MAPS projects that I will never use. This project will make the city will be a better place, just like all of the other MAPS projects.

[caaokc]

Pretty loud vocal minority regarding the $50mil contribution. Really curious what the voting margin plus turnout will be.