Classen Curve

[Just the facts]

I think it can work if there are some big name tenants announced that will draw in customers. It has to become a destination though.

Well let me just go on record as saying - in 10 years some people will still be wondering why Classen Curve is a failure.

[lasomeday]

Well let me just go on record as saying - in 10 years some people will still be wondering why Classen Curve is a failure.

Very true. It is awkward getting in and out as well as being cold and uninviting.

[Dubya61]

Do you think that the outlet mall will face the same short lifespan due to its stores facing away from the street?

[bchris02]

Do you think that the outlet mall will face the same short lifespan due to its stores facing away from the street?

+1

Shopping centers all across the nation, especially those built during the 2000s, were built that way. Classen Curve's problem is that it has few national retailers to draw shoppers. Chesapeake made a HUGE mistake in insisting that all the tenants be local.

[Chadanth]

+1

Shopping centers all across the nation, especially those built during the 2000s, were built that way. Classen Curve's problem is that it has few national retailers to draw shoppers. Chesapeake made a HUGE mistake in insisting that all the tenants be local.

This. There's nothing inherently wrong with the plaza, except it's 3/4 empty.

[PhiAlpha]

Well let me just go on record as saying - in 10 years some people will still be wondering why Classen Curve is a failure.

I was thinking about this the other day when I drove by it. The only problem I can see with facing the streets is that it's a relatively deep lot bordered by a small highway like section of classen that is bordered on the other side by a cemetery. I guess you could've made some of the retail front military on the other side and some front classen, but in this case I think it would make accessing all the shops more difficult. I do think the part along east side should've fronted grand, but based on this lot specifically, I don't have a huge problem with the design. I'm interested to see how they plan to link all of the developments, since the design obviously isn't changing, that will be key.


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[PhiAlpha]

Double post

[Rover]

The Curve will become part of a whole shopping lifestyle center with the new owners. They didn't buy it to let it be. They will develop it out as part of the whole area and not treat it as a separate property. I know some on here really want it to fail because it doesn't fit a particular notion, but don't bet on it. It has location, affluent adjoining neighborhood, and an owner with money and plans.

[bchris02]

The Curve will become part of a whole shopping lifestyle center with the new owners. They didn't buy it to let it be. They will develop it out as part of the whole area and not treat it as a separate property. I know some on here really want it to fail because it doesn't fit a particular notion, but don't bet on it. It has location, affluent adjoining neighborhood, and an owner with money and plans.

+1

[Just the facts]

I was thinking about this the other day when I drove by it. The only problem I can see with facing the streets is that it's a relatively deep lot bordered by a small highway like section of classen that is bordered on the other side by a cemetery. I guess you could've made some of the retail front military on the other side and some front classen, but in this case I think it would make accessing all the shops more difficult. I do think the part along east side should've fronted grand, but based on this lot specifically, I don't have a huge problem with the design. I'm interested to see how they plan to link all of the developments, since the design obviously isn't changing, that will be key.

They could have made an internal street network similar to what was done at Scottsdale Quarter.

[PhiAlpha]

They could have made an internal street network similar to what was done at Scottsdale Quarter.

They kind of did.


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[Just the facts]

Do you think that the outlet mall will face the same short lifespan due to its stores facing away from the street?

I suspect by about 2024 the OKC outlet mall will have faded into the "Whatever happened to XXXXX, it used to be so nice" status. Outlet malls tend not to stay around for the long-run.

[Just the facts]

They could have made an internal street network similar to what was done at Scottsdale Quarter.

They kind of did.

They made a parking lot with a 3' grass median. Take a look at Scottsdale Quarter to see what they should have done. What they call a 'street' at Classen Curve should have been the delivery and trash corridor.

[PhiAlpha]

They made a parking lot with 3' grass median. Take a look at Scottsdale Quarter to see what they should have done.

I know what scottsdale quarter did, I'm just saying, they kind of did add a roadway through it. Though I agree, it's not as effective as the site plan for scottsdale quarter.


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[Just the facts]

I know what scottsdale quarter did, I'm just saying, they kind of did add a roadway through it. Though I agree, it's not as effective as the site plan for scottsdale quarter.

Another mistake was that the 'streets' in CC should have tied into the existing grid in the area so it was integrated to the surrounding neighborhood instead of just being a strip shopping center with its back to all the people driving by. Like I said, these new owners have their work cutout for them.

[onthestrip]

+1

Shopping centers all across the nation, especially those built during the 2000s, were built that way. Classen Curve's problem is that it has few national retailers to draw shoppers. Chesapeake made a HUGE mistake in insisting that all the tenants be local.

But bigger mistake was the design of the long, meandering center and the spaces that provided very little depth. It made it very hard to form a retail synergy and was unattractive to national tenants.

I suspect the Curve will always mostly be mom and pops and most national tenants will go around/to the north of the triangle at classen curve part, where there is a much better chance of a shopping center being designed by shopping center people and not a starchitect.

[PhiAlpha]

Another mistake was that the 'streets' in CC should have tied into the existing grid in the area so it was integrated to the surrounding neighborhood instead of just being a strip shopping center with its back to all the people driving by.

Yeah I agree, I've always thought that was shortsighted. It's extremely frustrating when trying to get into the cc from those neighborhood streets.


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[Snowman]

Yeah I agree, I've always thought that was shortsighted. It's extremely frustrating when trying to get into the cc from those neighborhood streets.


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I thought it was a compromise with the neighborhood, they were getting a lot of traffic where they did not want it and one of the streets had a tendency to jam since people not from there would not realize how bad it was to get out that way.

[PhiAlpha]

I thought it was a compromise with the neighborhood, they were getting a lot of traffic where they did not want it and one of the streets had a tendency to jam since people not from their would not realize how bad it was to get out from there.

I remember hearing something to that effect but I didn't follow this very closely back then. That would make sense.


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[Just the facts]

I thought it was a compromise with the neighborhood, they were getting a lot of traffic where they did not want it and one of the streets had a tendency to jam since people not from there would not realize how bad it was to get out that way.

So the blind led the blind and they fell into a ditch. Who would have thought...

[Urbanized]

I agree. The important piece to this puzzle is the Triangle and the undeveloped land along Grand. If those are properly developed (especially as mixed use) it will make Classen Curve proper (and NHP) successful by association.

Besides, I have always viewed "the street" that CC fronts as the median-divided lanes that run through the development itself. By that measure CC is at zero setback with angled parking on the fronts of the buildings. This will be more evident when the area south of Upper Crust (where the rumored Ruth's Chris is located) is brought online. The real PARKING LOT is south of that.

[Pete]

They did add Lululemon which is a national retailer and the center doesn't have that much vacancy; what there is it mostly at the far south end.

Bringing in Ruth's Chris would be a big difference maker and at the same time allow them to completely reconfigure the odd ingress/egress and parking:

[Pete]

Here is the latest lease plan from Glimcher.

I've highlighted the vacancies in yellow; they are close to being fully leased:

[Urbanized]

The area marked "future development", if developed, will change the entire character of the center.

[Pete]

Their plans for that part of the center have been approved.

My bet is Glimcher is busy figuring out the master plan for CC, The Triangle, the vacant land to the north and NH Plaza.

Then, they will lease up the centers and develop the vacant space pretty quickly. They are developer/investors and operate REIT's, so they need to get things done, full and income flowing.

They also have dozens of big centers across the country and relationships with virtually every regional and national chain.

I would expect them to drop in something like REI and/or Crate & Barrel (just speculation) on the vacant parcels then fill in the rest with smaller tenants.

The make money off the smaller spaces, they need big anchors as a draw, so I'm sure they are working on getting that part done.