Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[law]

261 days, assuming that the plant is putting out 100 million gallons per day and it's being used somewhere, and assuming zero water enters the lake. Neither of these things will happen.

As a point of reference, with only the water that went over the dam at Overholser this weekend, Lake Hefner could be filled by a third.

Are you calculating the entire volume of Lake Hefner?

[OKCRT]

261 days, assuming that the plant is putting out 100 million gallons per day and it's being used somewhere, and assuming zero water enters the lake. Neither of these things will happen.

As a point of reference, with only the water that went over the dam at Overholser this weekend, Lake Hefner could be filled by a third.

Too bad they couldn't shoot that excess water up to Canton.

[RadicalModerate]

Too bad they couldn't shoot that excess water up to Canton.

That is EXACTLY what I thought when I read the dam comment. =)
Yet, I think the gravity of the situation might require pumps and pipelines of some sort rather than shooting.
Or even chuting . . . or swaling.
Perhaps a complex system of aqueducts?

[RadicalModerate]

Nothing is more reassuring than basing future water usage on the results of record setting rainfall. Average water demand should always be measured against above average rainfall. That strategy can't miss.

Well . . . That . . . or building pyramids next to the Nile . . . or movable Anti-Tornado shelters on the plains . . .
Pet Lawns: An Anathema to Human Nature. Especially in August. In Oklahoma. In a Period of (insert cause) GlobalWarming/drought

[OKCRT]

Saw a forecast that is predicting thunderstorms in NW Oklahoma. Hopefully Canton will get some relief.

Looks like Canton lake is gonna get some heavy rains soon. Hopefully this will calm everyone down and help get the lake back to normal levels. It is and has been pouring just nw of Canton for quite some time and the lake should be in line for some heavy runoff. Happy Days are here again!!!

[ljbab728]

Looks like Canton lake is gonna get some heavy rains soon. Hopefully this will calm everyone down and help get the lake back to normal levels. It is and has been pouring just nw of Canton for quite some time and the lake should be in line for some heavy runoff. Happy Days are here again!!!

OMG, don't say that. Kerry will have a stroke. LOL

[Buffalo Bill]

Are you calculating the entire volume of Lake Hefner?

Yep, or at least what the volume was this afternoon.

80something thousand acre feet.

[OKCisOK4me]

Looks like Canton lake is gonna get some heavy rains soon. Hopefully this will calm everyone down and help get the lake back to normal levels. It is and has been pouring just nw of Canton for quite some time and the lake should be in line for some heavy runoff. Happy Days are here again!!!

You really need to add this to your bookmarks:

Mesonet | Rainfall Since Midnight

The rain in NW Oklahoma is doing nothing compared to the general 6-10" drowning rain that OKC got. You've got to be the most naive poster I've seen on this website...either that or you're completely sarcastic.

[catch22]

You really need to add this to your bookmarks:

Mesonet | Rainfall Since Midnight

The rain in NW Oklahoma is doing nothing compared to the general 6-10" drowning rain that OKC got. You've got to be the most naive poster I've seen on this website...either that or you're completely sarcastic.

And even a better map:

Mesonet | 30-day Rainfall Accumulation

Shows how little has fallen in Canton's catchment area.

[OKCRT]

And even a better map:

Mesonet | 30-day Rainfall Accumulation

Shows how little has fallen in Canton's catchment area.

Looks like canton will be full by morning so I guess we can shut this thread down till next year.

[OKCisOK4me]

Apparently OKCRT is a troll....

Putting on the ol' ignore list!

[law]

Yep, or at least what the volume was this afternoon.

80something thousand acre feet.

Won't work. You cannot drain Hefner dry. OKC doesn't have the engineering to do it. According to Slaughter, you need water at 40,000 acre ft. Using your numbers with Slaughter's bottom, you would have about 130 days if you use 100 million gal/day It's probably more like 25 million gal/day.

On average, disappearance from Hefner (use + evaporation) is about 1,000 acre-feet a week. If you cannot go below 40,000 in Hefner, you have about 40 weeks of usable water.

[Just the facts]

From a NEWSOK article in 2011:

Water treatment plant is expanded for growing Oklahoma City | News OK

The project started this year, and the plant will be able to pump out 100 million gallons of clean water per day when it's finished in 2013, plant manager Doug Holmes said. The current capacity is 75 million gallons.

...

Increased demand for water during the hottest and driest part of the summer meant Oklahoma City's three water plants ran “pretty close” to full capacity, city utilities spokeswoman Debbie Ragan said.

It doesn't define 'pretty close' but if the capacity was 75 million per day I would put 'pretty close' north of 50 million. Or someone at public works just wasted a bunch of money.

[Buffalo Bill]

in Hefner, you have about 40 weeks of usable water.

261 days, 280 days, whatever it takes....

[Buffalo Bill]

From a NEWSOK article in 2011:

Water treatment plant is expanded for growing Oklahoma City | News OK



It doesn't define 'pretty close' but if the capacity was 75 million per day I would put 'pretty close' north of 50 million. Or someone at public works just wasted a bunch of money.

Fortunately for everyone, the "hottest and driest part of the summer" does not last year 'round.

[Just the facts]

Fortunately for everyone, the "hottest and driest part of the summer" does not last year 'round.

Yea, my concern isn't so much that the lake can't support a single year - it is that the City is setting up a situation where it takes above average rainfall to support normal water demand. Once that happens there is a real problem because the in-flow can never keep up with the out-flow over time. This is a real problem in the west where lakes like Mead and Powell will never be full again, and will eventually dry up completely. And in the case of those two lakes it is double problem because they also produce a massive amount of electricity.

[Buffalo Bill]

Yea, my concern isn't so much that the lake can't support a single year - it is that the City is setting up a situation where it takes above average rainfall to support normal water demand. Once that happens there is a real problem because the in-flow can never keep up with the out-flow over time. This is a real problem in the west where lakes like Mead and Powell will never be full again, and will eventually dry up completely. And in the case of those two lakes it is double problem because they also produce a massive amount of electricity.

Fair enough, but in the case of Hefner being dry, this was the result of an extended drought. Normal precipitation levels would have re-plenished it, and fairly rapidly. OKC is a long way from having demand outstrip supply, although having Lake Canton as a reserve looks less and less appealing.

An interesting read: http://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/wri964304/pdf/wri96-4304.pdf

[Just the facts]

OKC is a long way from having demand outstrip supply

Here is the problem I have with that statement - OKC has been under watering restrictions for several years which to me means that demand does outstrip supply. Now you can say, well that is because we have been in a multi-year drought, and that is probably correct but the questions is - is that the new normal? A second question is, was the data used to establish 'normal' flow done in years that were unusually wet, thus giving the illusion that more water is available than actually exists (this was the case with Lake Mead and Lake Powell)? The study you linked to was created in 1996 and one of the impetuses for it was the noticeable reduced stream flow. Notice that a reduction in stream flow was NOT a result of decreased rainfall in the basin.

Moving averages, trend tests, and comparisons of median
and average flows for an early period (ending in 1971) with
those for the recent period (1978-1994) show that the total
annual volume of flow and the magnitudes of instantaneous
peak discharges measured at most gaging stations in the Beaver-
North Canadian River basin have decreased in recent years.
These changes are most pronounced in the headwaters upstream
from Woodward, but also are evident at Woodward and near
Seiling, which represents the inflow to Canton Lake. Precipitation
records for the panhandle, however, show no corresponding
changes.

Annual volume of flow has declined at most gaging stations
in the basin. Changes in the discharge of the Beaver River
through 1986 have been documented (Wahl and Wahl, 1988).
The average annual discharge of the river near Guymon
reported in 1960 for 23 years of record (water years 1938-1960)
was 23,300 acre-feet. The 10-year moving average was only
500 acre-feet by 1993. In this study, the decrease near Guymon
between the early period and the recent period was about 18,000
acre-feet and represented 91 percent of the average flow for the
early period. Even larger decreases were found in the annual
flow volumes between the early and recent periods at Beaver
(-68,000 acre-feet), at Woodward (-72,000 acre-feet), and near
Seiling (-63,000 acre-feet).

I can only guess that since 1996 things have not improved.

[BoulderSooner]

and now we have had the wettest May on record ... and OKC has NOT been on watering restrictions forever

[Just the facts]

and now we have had the wettest May on record ... and OKC has NOT been on watering restrictions forever

1) I didn't say forever, I said "several years".
2) Great, there is enough water during the wettest May on record. No surprise there. What about all the other May's, or do you expect record rainfall every May?

When the baseline was being established how do we know where that baseline period falls within the historical range (which is different from the recorded historical range).

[law]

261 days, 280 days, whatever it takes....

Your number used 100 million gallons of use per day, mine uses 25 million gallons of use per day. If you are right, and I am wrong, your number would be more like 130 days.

[OKCRT]

1) I didn't say forever, I said "several years".
2) Great, there is enough water during the wettest May on record. No surprise there. What about all the other May's, or do you expect record rainfall every May?

When the baseline was being established how do we know where that baseline period falls within the historical range (which is different from the recorded historical range).

I don't ever remember OKC being on water rationing in May.

[Just the facts]

I don't ever remember OKC being on water rationing in May.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think OKC was on Stage 1 watering restrictions all last month - the same month OKC had record rainfall. What does it say when there are water restrictions during record rainfall?

[Buffalo Bill]

Your number used 100 million gallons of use per day, mine uses 25 million gallons of use per day. If you are right, and I am wrong, your number would be more like 130 days.

My numbers were in response to JTF's assertion about the capability of draining Hefner dry with the new plant treating water at full capacity.

[Buffalo Bill]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think OKC was on Stage 1 watering restrictions all last month - the same month OKC had record rainfall. What does it say when there are water restrictions during record rainfall?

It says that the US Drought Monitor still had us in some stage of drought.

Regional Drought Monitor: South

As for the continual rationing, I believe this is a function of OKC's water treatment being capable of meeting peak demand and the infrastructure being capable of effectively delivering that water. The completion of the Hefner Plant should aid in that endeavor.

However, availability of water to be treated and delivered, is not an issue.