OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

That's not true, Hoya. If a project came along and built without requesting TIF funding - which is unlikely and certainly would be nothing of this scale or type if so - it would still generate incremental dollars that go into the TIF fund instead of to schools. They would just be spent on other TIF projects instead.

The only way to divert TIF district incremental money to schools/county would be to dismantle the TIF entirely.

I don't think that's true; I believe only a percentage of property tax goes to TIF #2, not all of it.

But frankly, the fact that very well-informed and extremely interested people are discussing this and still don't even know these answers (and I'm including myself in this group!) shows how difficult it is to get even basic reporting information for these huge projects being managed by the City. They do a horrible job in this area and it's something that needs to change.


I hope to have some time over the weekend to get more data because there is still a lot to this to understand before any decisions are made.

[bchris02]

Now I 100% agree with people need to live downtown and not just visit from 9 to 5 - which is exactly why residential should front the park and not the office space. For the life of me I don't understand the mentality that puts companies over people. Could you imagine any other city that claims to want to encourage walkability/downtown living and then would build an iconic park and surround it with non-residential uses? Not even suburban subdivision developers do that.

Would you oppose the existing proposal as strongly on the current terms if the residential was fronting the park?

[Paseofreak]

Are the TIF amounts requested in Clayco's proposal simply line item amounts, or are there specific objective set forth for the money. I've seen assertions that all this money/tax relief will just offset Clayco's expenditures entirely within the site boundaries. Yet, I've seen others argue that it will be used for off-site improvements much like the Devon TIF. Anyone have any hard information? Are the proposals on-line anywhere?

[Stickman]

I don't think that's true; I believe only a percentage of property tax goes to TIF #2, not all of it.

But frankly, the fact that very well-informed and extremely interested people are discussing this and still don't even know these answers (and I'm including myself in this group!) shows how difficult it is to get even basic reporting information for these huge projects being managed by the City. They do a horrible job in this area and it's something that needs to change.


I hope to have some time over the weekend to get more data because there is still a lot to this to understand before any decisions are made.

Lots of money involved I'm sure. Take that block and the block the bus station sits on and you are talking over a 1/2 billion dollars in future developments. That bids the land values up in the surrounding area also. The land the Peacock restaurant sits on is sold.

[Just the facts]

Would you oppose the existing proposal as strongly on the current terms if the residential was fronting the park?

I am for good urbanism AND responsible government. I'll be happy when both are done. If 'tax and spend' doesn't work why would we think 'untax and spend' will work?

[Spartan]

That's not true, Hoya. If a project came along and built without requesting TIF funding - which is unlikely and certainly would be nothing of this scale or type if so - it would still generate incremental dollars that go into the TIF fund instead of to schools. They would just be spent on other TIF projects instead.

The only way to divert TIF district incremental money to schools/county would be to dismantle the TIF entirely.

What are the boundaries of the present TIF district that includes this site? What is the millage? Where do loan repayments go (is it a revolving loan program, is OKC actually collecting?)

Does OKC keep or maintain any kind of public information on the TIF program?

[Rover]

Lots of money involved I'm sure. Take that block and the block the bus station sits on and you are talking over a 1/2 billion dollars in future developments. That bids the land values up in the surrounding area also. The land the Peacock restaurant sits on is sold.

Clayco's proposal is over 1/2 Billion Dollars by itself.

[Pete]

What are the boundaries of the present TIF district that includes this site? What is the millage? Where do loan repayments go (is it a revolving loan program, is OKC actually collecting?)

Does OKC keep or maintain any kind of public information on the TIF program?

I can answer some of these questions:

Boundaries of TIF #2: 13th, Western, I-235, old I-40


Also, keep in mind this TIF started in 2000 and expires in 2025. So, it only has 11 more years to run and since this project won't start generating increased property tax for at least three years (two years to build, then on more year before assessed -- took Devon 5 years) that means only about 8 years would remain.

That's a huge part of this math, because we are comparing 20-25 years of a new TIF vs. only about 8 years of the existing TIF, plus I'm quite sure the existing does not divert all property only a percentage.


I'll do a full analysis with several different scenarios, then confirm my assumptions/numbers are right with Brent Bryant who coordinates all this for the City.

[Stickman]

Clayco's proposal is over 1/2 Billion Dollars by itself.

Yes is a lot of money, no doubt. I hope oil prices don't stay flat. Did the incentives for BASS PRO work? I think it is a chance we might have to take, but it is a little scary.


BTW I don't have the answers about BASS PRO.........just sending it out. Maybe some knows the ROI on it.

[Just the facts]

Yes is a lot of money, no doubt. I hope oil prices don't stay flat. Did the incentives for BASS PRO work? I think it is a chance we might have to take, but it is a little scary.


BTW I don't have the answers about BASS PRO.........just sending it out. Maybe some knows the ROI on it.

Whether Bass Pro made money for the city or not really wasn't the goal of the Bass Pro deal. The purpose was to act as a magnet to attract retail to Lower Bricktown. In that regards it was a great big failure.

[Rover]

Whether Bass Pro made money for the city or not really wasn't the goal of the Bass Pro deal. The purpose was to act as a magnet to attract retail to Lower Bricktown. In that regards it was a great big failure.

Bass Pro brought lots of PEOPLE to lower BT. It is up to businesses and developers to actually further take the chance and develop the retail. In that sense Hogan failed. Apparently retailers were looking for additional things, like rooftops. That has been slow to develop. Given the Clayco development wants to also bring high density population along with its development it is a way different thing. Perhaps it should have been "Bass Pro Village" to earn the assistance. But, one of the big "what if" questions for a tif is whether the development raises the value in the area above and beyond what would develop normally without the project. I think adding lots of above average income population in a concentrated area certainly makes the area more valuable to retailers, etc. than just adding a building to put a store in, or even an office where people go home 10 miles away.

[Bellaboo]

I keep ready 140 plus million dollars. At this point a dollar figure has not been negotiated, so why use this number as a reference case argument ?

[Motley]

Like

[Motley]

Lots of sausage making going on here that should be done by the city and OCURA. Is there a lack of faith in them that makes people believe the funding for this project will be botched? I believe there is a 90 day period for negotiations, so unless our city officials are inept, they will feel out Clayco and see what is possible with the best use of TIF money. It could be there is ample parking in the plan to assist in the cc and arena; maybe the development will extend the gardens and create more public space, who knows, but I have faith the city will not just roll over and get nothing in return for the money.

[Spartan]

Yes is a lot of money, no doubt. I hope oil prices don't stay flat. Did the incentives for BASS PRO work? I think it is a chance we might have to take, but it is a little scary.


BTW I don't have the answers about BASS PRO.........just sending it out. Maybe some knows the ROI on it.

Kind of breathtaking to consider that as the level of development we used to incentivize.

[Pete]

It's very healthy when people care enough about a community to get involved.

And the way this works is that the negotiations happen in private, then are presented to the City Council for approval. Most often, there is less than a week notice when it comes to the agenda items and even then the details aren't always revealed until the meeting itself.

So, it's wise to get up to speed and talk to your councilman with an informed opinion.

This is not only a ton of money, it will definitely set a precedent for much more development to come.

It's every bit as important as MAPS, just without the public vote.

[Plutonic Panda]

This analysis by Steve is probably the best I've seen, for those who are able to see all of it.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5370467?embargo=1

Removed a renegade semicolon to appease the code gods.

Dr. Aldini, I presume.

[Just the facts]

Lots of sausage making going on here that should be done by the city and OCURA. Is there a lack of faith in them that makes people believe the funding for this project will be botched? I believe there is a 90 day period for negotiations, so unless our city officials are inept, they will feel out Clayco and see what is possible with the best use of TIF money. It could be there is ample parking in the plan to assist in the cc and arena; maybe the development will extend the gardens and create more public space, who knows, but I have faith the city will not just roll over and get nothing in return for the money.

Maybe, but this is the discussion we are having. Some people right now on OKCTalk would fork over the $140 million no questions asked for no other reason than they want the development and Clayco asked for the money.

[Pete]

I think most people, if not all, assume that questions are being asked. We're just not the ones asking them. I personally know the people asking these questions. They're not idiots. So I know they're doing their job in a competent way. While I may not agree with decisions they make, I know they're not asleep at the wheel. I think everyone on OKCTalk knows that.

Completely agree.

I absolutely trust Cathy O'Connor & Co. Cathy is probably the sharpest person in all of OKC government and she's done a great job with the Alliance and OCURA.


But of course, it's always good to understand all this stuff and get involved in the process.

And I think the MAPS comparison is a good one as this one project alone is about half the size of the original MAPS and also involves public tax dollars.

But since there is no public vote on this or any other TIF grants, the public has to get involved in another way; namely fully understanding all the complexities of the TIF's and also comparing different scenarios rather that assuming an all-or-nothing proposition.

You know, democracy, checks-and-balances and all that fun stuff.

[Just the facts]

Really?

I think most people, if not all, assume that questions are being asked. We're just not the ones asking them. I personally know the people asking these questions. They're not idiots. So I know they're doing their job in a competent way. While I may not agree with decisions they make, I know they're not asleep at the wheel. I think everyone on OKCTalk knows that.

I have faith that City leaders know what they are doing, but to my knowledge they aren't posting in this thread, and thus engaging in the this conversation. If you read through this thread it isn't hard to pick out the ones who would have already signed on the dotted line. How many times have we already read that if the City doesn't give the requested TIF amount this project isn't happening? Even Steve in his article yesterday about TIFs laid out the assumption that if Clayco doesn't build this project right now the lots will go undeveloped for 25 years.

[Stickman]

Really?

I think most people, if not all, assume that questions are being asked. We're just not the ones asking them. I personally know the people asking these questions. They're not idiots. So I know they're doing their job in a competent way. While I may not agree with decisions they make, I know they're not asleep at the wheel. I think everyone on OKCTalk knows that.

Agree, lots of questions need to be asked, but would hate to see us lose this too. I bet a lot of this $ is coming from REIT. Could dry up later.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not suggesting that they are posting here. I guess I'm seeing some pretty strong conclusions on the part of taxpayers being made in a vacuum. I love the discussion. Just caution against getting too worked up knowing that there are conversations that we're just not privy to.

I'm with you Pete. I'm a fan of transparency. But you know how some of this stuff is. It's all confidential during negotiations for obvious reasons. I'm holding out to see what the TIF proposals look like.

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but does anyone know when that will be?

[Rover]

Part of the transparency should be the economic assumptions regarding growth with and without the project, and how those assumptions were arrived at. Often people ignore the impact of early start vs. late start. If you can move the growth angle/curve early then the impact in just a few years is substantially improved. So, while Steve may be wrong that this kind of development might be 25 years away using normal economic growth standards, the difference between this project and one half the investment still may be exponential in upcoming years.

OKC is a hot topic right now among developers, but can lose that momentum. I sat in a meeting in Texas last week with a mixed use developer active in the DFW and Houston area who said that their investors are asking them to turn from Dallas to other fast growing or currently hot cities...first among them OKC. However, this developer is very unsure of what the actual risks are as we have little real direct experience to indicate. If they could assess the risk and it is appropriate, they will come in. But no one wants to be the guinea pig in a high stakes game. A $530 Million risk is a HIGH stakes game, especially in OKC.

[Just the facts]

I'm holding out to see what the TIF proposals look like.

Will there be time to express concern and raise objections AFTER they reach a deal? If so, I'll wait.

[bchris02]

(My edits)

This is key. This is why I'd be willing to pay a premium for residential projects in the CBD. Retailers are still counting households and expendable dollars and right now, just about any way you slice it, downtown comes up short. That leads to pure speculation plays and very little to no retail stability.

Any new residential lowers the risk threshold for other things and that alone is worth a pretty significant amount of money. What's the ratio: $ᵗᶦᶠ to -%ʳ?

Agree with this completely. As far as downtown has come there is still a long way to go and part of that is that there still aren't enough people in the core to be attractive to retailers. If you live in downtown OKC you still need to drive to the suburbs for basic living necessities. That should not be and every residential project gets downtown closer and closer to being able to have the kind of retail it needs to be a more self sustaining neighborhood. A development on this scale that will be mostly high income will be a great intangible benefit for everyone who lives downtown. I can't believe there is so much opposition to this on this board.