BOK Park Plaza

[Teo9969]

It's too late now. There's not much left to save.

Well, there's currently nothing stopping our progeny 30 years down the line from taking down Leadership square or everything on Film Row even if they have plenty of lots in the Coop site to develop.

But I'm with Pete on this…timing is, well, suspicious.

[KayneMo]

I feel like the additional criteria should've been in the ordinance from the beginning.

[BDP]

I feel like the additional criteria should've been in the ordinance from the beginning.

Yeah, what in the world were they evaluating in the first place? Seems if they had no basis for denying demolitions, they've been as irrelevant as they have appeared all along.

[ljbab728]

Steve's update on the lawsuit. "Should vs Shall"

Lawsuit filed to block bus station demolition | NewsOK.com

Brett Davis, the attorney filing the appeal, is wanting the court to settle whether the ordinance’s instruction to preserve historic buildings is the intent of the law, or whether wording that says the design committee “should” take such steps instead of “shall” is the key part of the ordinance. Such conflict was cited previously in the debates over demolition of Stage Center and buildings torn down to make way for the SandRidge Commons development. In each prior case, the design committee went with the discretionary wording in the ordinance with critics countering they ignored the instruction to preserve historic buildings.

[jccouger]

Its always interesting to see how the public feels on issues outside of OKCtalk. The overwhelming majority of people are opposed to demolition based on this KFOR-TV facebook post:

https://www.facebook.com/kfor4/posts/10152699777646636

[TU 'cane]

I can honestly see The Nichols taking his ball and going home sooner rather than later. Might be good for this site.
He'll just pack everything up and say "See, OKC? We try to progress and you fight with me. I tried and you didn't want it!"

[Just the facts]

Except 499 doesn't represent progress. It just represents one possible version of the future, and one that many people think will reduce the quality of civic life. There are other possible versions of the future that will enhance civic life. The future is coming, but shouldn't that future be an improvement over the present?

[TU 'cane]

Except 499 doesn't represent progress. It just represents one possible version of the future, and one that many people think will reduce the quality of civic life. There are other possible versions of the future that will enhance civic life. The future is coming, but shouldn't that future be an improvement over the present?

I agree. But, it's clear to all of us that Nichols believes HIS vision is what progress should look like.
Out with the old, in with the new, we're gonna steamroll everything and if you don't like it, well...

I like the pushback this is receiving, all after a time when we thought all was lost. There is a little fight left in this block.

[dankrutka]

I can honestly see The Nichols taking his ball and going home sooner rather than later. Might be good for this site.
He'll just pack everything up and say "See, OKC? We try to progress and you fight with me. I tried and you didn't want it!"

Does OKC want to be a Big League City? Because Big League Cities turn down bad proposals because they're not desperate or beholden to anyone willing to build. I'm not even saying whether this proposal should be accepted, but implying that proposals shouldn't be rejected or at least face scrutiny seems detrimental to OKC's future (and past... Most of which is gone anyway).

[Laramie]

Does OKC want to be a Big League City? Because Big League Cities turn down bad proposals because they're not desperate or beholden to anyone willing to build. I'm not even saying whether this proposal should be accepted, but implying that proposals shouldn't be rejected or at least face scrutiny seems detrimental to OKC's future (and past... Most of which is gone anyway).

Definitely agree with you, Dan. Scrutiny isn't a bounty; it should never be left off the table.

In some respects to the Big League City realm, OKC continues to carve its niche; it will take more than one project. We continue to gauge what happens in other cities similar in size to OKC like Omaha, Little Rock, Tulsa, Wichita & Memphis. Omaha's goal has been to get better without an emphasis on bigger. Tulsa is where OKC should be now in respects to retail and other categories like beautification.

The 'Big League City' transition in areas other than sports will not occur overnight. Our city experienced a 30 yr., period of neglect from 1960 through 1990. The 1989 Centennial was the turning point along with the MAPS launch passage in 1993. The destruction of the Murrah Building brought national attention to the heart & true soul of our people.

Improvement takes time; we need to work with leaders like Larry Nichols who has invested in Oklahoma City. Where would OKC be without Devon Energy had he taken his 50 story skyscraper along with employees to Houston? Larry Nichols has earned a say; not to be confused with earned his way.

We're not Dallas, Houston or Denver; however, follow some of the positive blueprints of those cities to make OKC better. You should be encouraged by OKC's growth & economic indicators.

OKC has strength in the oil & gas segment with complementary energy giants like Chesapeake Energy, Sandridge Energy & Continental Resources along with more companies in the energy area with aggressive growth potential. General Electric Global Research chose to put its center here to serve and advance oil & gas exploration worldwide. Those are the giants you want to attract as you become 'Big League.'

[soondoc]

Does OKC want to be a Big League City? Because Big League Cities turn down bad proposals because they're not desperate or beholden to anyone willing to build. I'm not even saying whether this proposal should be accepted, but implying that proposals shouldn't be rejected or at least face scrutiny seems detrimental to OKC's future (and past... Most of which is gone anyway).

What I am about to say I do not mean it as negative but purely my opinion which I find to be quite accurate. The answer to your question is no, I don't think OKC "truly" wants to be a Big League City. I think their are some that share that dream but are derailed by the power of some power people that I think have their pocket books above all else. This state has basically always been about catering to a select few to get richer while infrastructure, roads, schools, and non liquor stores suffer the consequences. I am sorry but that is just the way it is and has always been and has basically set this state back many decades from the rest of the country. It is my state, I love my state and think it has some of the best people in the entire world in it. However, we have been victims of lots of corruption for many years at many levels which is the reason why we are not Texas when we could be just like Texas.

So, of course we will never see a major attraction, theme park, etc here. We will never be a major player regarding our airport and flights, and we will never be a viewed positively because of the stigma that has followed us for many years and that we allow to continue. We don't dream big, we are pretty content on just trying to keep pace or improve. They have done an admirable job of that and that is to be commended. I have stated it before but it is the perfect description of this city that I love and have big dream for. OKC is not nor will it ever be a great city. It is what it is and that is an OK City. The very name of the city says it all and fits it perfectly. I guess that beats where we were years ago for sure but if you want to keep it real we don't have enough dreamers or people who seem to want to take action to make this place great.

[bchris02]

Soondoc, OKC could have simply not passed MAPS, never built the Peake and would not have the Thunder. The city could have left Bricktown as a run down industrial warehouse district. The city could have turned away the Devon tower, sending Larry Nichols and his company to Houston. That would be not dreaming big and accepting mediocrity. I think OKC does want to be a big league city but special interest groups and an extremely conservative state are hurting its efforts.

OKC could do much better but I think you are way off-base when you say things like OKC will never be big league, will never have a major attraction, or will never be viewed positively. It can and will take work to make happen but it can happen.

[adaniel]

OKC is not nor will it ever be a great city.

Then why are you here?

[Just the facts]

I take exception to 'conservatism' being blamed. I am as conservative as anyone can possibly be and I am constantly attacked because my urban ideas are to radical. What is holding OKC back is people who glory in mediocrity, are slaves to the status quo, and have a complete lack of taste and style - and that cuts across all political ideologies.

[gopokes88]

What I am about to say I do not mean it as negative but purely my opinion which I find to be quite accurate. The answer to your question is no, I don't think OKC "truly" wants to be a Big League City. I think their are some that share that dream but are derailed by the power of some power people that I think have their pocket books above all else. This state has basically always been about catering to a select few to get richer while infrastructure, roads, schools, and non liquor stores suffer the consequences. I am sorry but that is just the way it is and has always been and has basically set this state back many decades from the rest of the country. It is my state, I love my state and think it has some of the best people in the entire world in it. However, we have been victims of lots of corruption for many years at many levels which is the reason why we are not Texas when we could be just like Texas.

So, of course we will never see a major attraction, theme park, etc here. We will never be a major player regarding our airport and flights, and we will never be a viewed positively because of the stigma that has followed us for many years and that we allow to continue. We don't dream big, we are pretty content on just trying to keep pace or improve. They have done an admirable job of that and that is to be commended. I have stated it before but it is the perfect description of this city that I love and have big dream for. OKC is not nor will it ever be a great city. It is what it is and that is an OK City. The very name of the city says it all and fits it perfectly. I guess that beats where we were years ago for sure but if you want to keep it real we don't have enough dreamers or people who seem to want to take action to make this place great.

Ok Stan.
http://southpark.cc.com/clips/ux8mdp/same-old-crap

BTW throw some cities out there that are "great" I'll happily take them down a notch for you.
Seattle and Portland have high suicide and depression rates because of the lack of sun.
San Fran is always sorta cold and costs and arm and a leg.
NYC smells terrible, expensive, and crowded.
Chicago is cold, crime ridden, and corrupt to no end.
Washington DC has politicians and is filled with power hungry people.
Florida is God's waiting room and is always humid and hot.
Dallas is sprawled and you'll live in a car basically. (I'm not even a big urbanist but even Dallas seems excessive)
LA is fake, expensive, sprawled.
Paris is expensive and has french snobbery
London is super expensive, cold, rainy.
Phoenix is 5 months of good weather followed by 7 months of heat, plus it is the $30,000 millionaire's paradise
Las Vegas would suck to live in always dealing with drunken tourists, plus crime.
Austin has unbearable traffic, rapidly increasing cost of living, and there's no more locals-its some bro or chick from somewhere random complaining about how much Austin has changed even though they've lived there all of 7 months. I can't even imagine how annoying all those festivals would get- 50,000 people pouring in from all over the place constantly and getting obliterated drunk or high then eating at the great restaurants so they always have long wait times. Denver isn't much different, swap festivals for weed.

Everywhere can suck. You attitude determines everything. Your attitude sucks which is why your perception of the city sucks.

-We have 2 of the great basketball players in the world playing in the state 42 times a year. Not only that, they seem to genuinely like it and they are great citizens and representatives of the city. Can you even grasp what other cities would do to get that? I'll give you a hint they start attempting to recruit then 2 YEARS before their contracts are up. Wear an OKC Thunder polo next time you are out of town and watch what happens.

-There is a very very deep sense of community here. People are very kind to each other. The tragedies we have had to endure (the bombing, tornados) and the constant threat an EF5 will wipe out a few miles of town bind us to each other that is unusual for a town this size. It's the #1 thing people notice when they get here or visit. A town of 1.3 million feels like a family. We bicker, have disagreements, and a few knuckleheads like any other family but overall its pretty unique to us.

-Things actually function decently well at the city level. You don't think another city has said wow look at OKC is doing let's get our own MAPs going? Yet very few seem to be able to pull it off. For a government our city does a pretty good job.

-You can live close to work in just about any part of the city. It's also fairly easy to get around. Walk-ability is improving daily.

Sure the urbanists have been losing some battles lately but dang it you went against billionaires. When you play tennis with McEnroe you shouldn't expect to win. Same thing in this case. You go against powerful people you are probably not going to come out a winner. There's no harm in fighting, but don't burn yourself out on battles you can't win. A winnable battle will appear but if you've spent too much emotional capital on the wrong fights that winnable fight becomes a loss as well.

There's plenty to enjoy here, just as much as anywhere else. This is a you thing, not a OKC thing.

[bchris02]

I take exception to 'conservatism' being blamed. I am as conservative as anyone can possibly be and I am constantly attacked because my urban ideas are to radical. What is holding OKC back is people who glory in mediocrity, are slaves to the status quo, and have a complete lack of taste and style - and that cuts across all political ideologies.

I know what you mean. When I say "conservative" I am not talking about your shade of conservatism but people like Mary Fallin, Jim Inhofe, and Sally Kern.

[shawnw]

OKC is not nor will it ever be a great city. It is what it is and that is an OK City.

I would say that OKC was a GREAT city pre-WWII when we had all the streetcar lines and our beautiful buildings pre-urban renewal. And as such what was once great can be great again.

[adaniel]

Defeatists posts like the ones above are a reason I'm considering taking a little vacation from OKCtalk. Way too much negativity on here lately. Given how quiet its been on here lately, I think others are doing the same.

If soondoc and others want to stink up this place with their self-loathing, don't expect me to stick around and smell it.

[soondoc]

^^^^ Enjoy your vacation, I am sure not much will have changed when you come back. I am sorry, but the things I stated may not have been popular to some of you all but it is not being negative. CChris had some valid points, but lets be honest with ourselves and just admit that the city and state has held itself hostage with many poor choices for years. Yes, the took a chance with MAPS and a disaster in New Orleans helped us land the Thunder with some luck of course. Lets also be honest on how it took someone like Clay Bennett who is from Oklahoma and had a dream and vision to land this team here.

I gave kudos to OKC for the things they have done, you seem to ignore that fact. It has changed and is a much better place. However, poor decisions at both levels have always and shall continue to be what never will allow us to be Texas. It is a stigma that we have endured for years and that will not leave us most likely. We have some people who have great ideas and vision for OKC but will be trumped by those who run the show. It is not me being negative as much as it is about just being honest about this city. It does things on the cheap as does the state. ODOT should be in prison as far as I am concerned, but that is beside the point. Why can't they build and design highways like they do in other states? I know the answer but it might hurt someone's feelings and cause them to take a vacation from here.

[Bellaboo]

Defeatists posts like the ones above are a reason I'm considering taking a little vacation from OKCtalk. Way too much negativity on here lately. Given how quiet its been on here lately, I think others are doing the same.

If soondoc and others want to stink up this place with their self-loathing, don't expect me to stick around and smell it.

^^^I've been thinking the same way lately.^^^ Some folks don't know what 'bad times' really are.

[Teo9969]

^^^^ Enjoy your vacation, I am sure not much will have changed when you come back. I am sorry, but the things I stated may not have been popular to some of you all but it is not being negative. CChris had some valid points, but lets be honest with ourselves and just admit that the city and state has held itself hostage with many poor choices for years. Yes, the took a chance with MAPS and a disaster in New Orleans helped us land the Thunder with some luck of course. Lets also be honest on how it took someone like Clay Bennett who is from Oklahoma and had a dream and vision to land this team here.

I gave kudos to OKC for the things they have done, you seem to ignore that fact. It has changed and is a much better place. However, poor decisions at both levels have always and shall continue to be what never will allow us to be Texas. It is a stigma that we have endured for years and that will not leave us most likely. We have some people who have great ideas and vision for OKC but will be trumped by those who run the show. It is not me being negative as much as it is about just being honest about this city. It does things on the cheap as does the state. ODOT should be in prison as far as I am concerned, but that is beside the point. Why can't they build and design highways like they do in other states? I know the answer but it might hurt someone's feelings and cause them to take a vacation from here.

Well oh my...whatever will come of us if we can't become Texas???!!!

[dankrutka]

Defeatists posts like the ones above are a reason I'm considering taking a little vacation from OKCtalk. Way too much negativity on here lately. Given how quiet its been on here lately, I think others are doing the same.

If soondoc and others want to stink up this place with their self-loathing, don't expect me to stick around and smell it.

Don't leave, just put those posters on ignore. Easy solution.

[hoya]

Yeah I really don't want to be Texas.

[soondoc]

^^^^ That's right, just hit that ignore button if you don't agree with someone. Have you all ever competed in sports before? I have some valid points but what you just said is nothing more than the little kid "taking the ball and running home". If we don't like to hear anything negative (although a lot of truth in my statements) you can choose to hit the ignore button or take your ball and go home. Some of you seriously need to toughen up a little bit, geesh. How do you deal with other things in your life if someone says something that you don't agree with?

[Rover]

What is holding OKC back is people who glory in mediocrity, are slaves to the status quo, and have a complete lack of taste and style - and that cuts across all political ideologies.

There are MANY, MANY in this city doing great things. The will do more for this city today than all the dogmatic diatribe accounts for in the life of this board. There are people with vision, energy, and yes, with way more taste and style that you can even relate to, who are working tirelessly to improve our city. To you and Doc who do nothing but see everything as a failure, I say get over yourselves. The leaps and bounds that this city has made in the past 15 years is recognized by many who have far more credentials and wisdom. Do we have issues....of course. We can list many. But this constant need to denegrate says more about the poster than the city.

And yes, the tea partiers and ultra conservatives in this state do give it a backward image. And yet this city is prospering DESPITE them.