Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[OKCRT]

Good for you! It's a race to the bottom of both lakes. Use Hefner/Overholser asap, Canton will evaporate, doesn't change anything for us, only for you. No offense intended.

Nah,OKC has all that SE Ok. water we can fall back on. Don't think for a second that OKCs life depends on Canton Lake to survive. That pipeline will be built and OKC will have all the water it will ever need. Texas can pound sand and look somewhere else for the water they will need. Dallas is the city that has a water problem,not OKC.

[WilliamTell]

I just wanted to send you a picture so you didnt forget what it looks like.

[law]

Nah,OKC has all that SE Ok. water we can fall back on. Don't think for a second that OKCs life depends on Canton Lake to survive. That pipeline will be built and OKC will have all the water it will ever need. Texas can pound sand and look somewhere else for the water they will need. Dallas is the city that has a water problem,not OKC.

Kinda short sighted. There is no pipeline today, nor have they started it. Those people dependent on Hefner are stuck. Sardis people are not any happier than we are. Why do you think OKC deserves all the water that falls on OK?

Who's abrasive now? LOL!

[law]

I just wanted to send you a picture so you didnt forget what it looks like.

We have an equally rude photo that I would not post. Not nice.

[mkjeeves]

I tend not to focus on labels.

BTW...post 248, law talks about having a husband. Not that I think anyone much cares at this point but the person shared that tidbit as if...

I'm sorry I made myself relive part of this thread.

[law]

BTW...post 248, law talks about having a husband. Not that I think anyone much cares at this point but the person shared that tidbit as if...

I'm sorry I made myself relive part of this thread.

Are you stalking me?

[mkjeeves]

Seems like you are stalking OKC citizens with your broken record. Got anything besides that to offer?

[Martin]

alright... i think everyone needs to back away from their keyboards and take a breath. there's no need to get personal. there's no need to taunt each other. let's stick to topic. -M

[RadicalModerate]

I know that there are those who would debate the veracity of prophecy especially on an online forum . . .
Yet the fact remains that drinkable water belongs to native people by treaty.

Here is a plagiarised history link to prove it:
American Literature, Black Elk Speaks Research Papers

I'm not dissin' "law" . . . nor blowing smoke signals out of my hindquarters . . .
I am simply attempting to promote and support a cosmic shift in consciousness.
About water rights and wrongs.

(edited to add: sorry, mmm. apparently crossed posts simultaneously. =)

[mkjeeves]

The point is law made it clear she is a woman and she did that early on in the thread. Now I'm a bad people because I corrected someone who got that wrong in later posts. My bad.

I was rereading the thread for another reason though. It was to find the snark in your posts you just claimed isn't there. It doesn't take long to find those either, they come up pretty quick. 240 is a good example. But I don't care anymore.

[RadicalModerate]

The point is law made it clear she is a woman and she did that early on in the thread. Now I'm a bad people because I corrected someone who got that wrong in later posts. My bad.

I was rereading the thread for another reason though. It was to find the snark in your posts you just claimed isn't there. It doesn't take long to find those either, they come up pretty quick. 240 is a good example. But I don't care anymore.

"I'm a bad people . . ."
what an interesting turn of phrase . . .
now back to our regularly scheduled programming . . .

Water: Don't Waste It. OK?

[mkjeeves]

I always hated "my bad". I apologize to myself for having used that just now.

[law]

The Cheyenne Arapaho tribes do not seem very interested in their Riparian rights at the present time, no doubt they have not given up those rights, and if the tribes in the SE prevail, they will reconsider their position. Once the precedent is set, OKC may not be able to draw water until they negotiate a contract new with the CA tribe.

[Midtowner]

I doubt the tribes in the SE are going to get their way. If you care, ask me why.

[law]

I doubt the tribes in the SE are going to get their way. If you care, ask me why.

Sorry, I've been busy this evening. Of course, I'm interested in your evaluation of their legal case.

[Midtowner]

The tribes' legal argument is centered around the Winters doctrine. That's a turn of the century case which awarded a tribe the amount of water it would take to irrigate all of the irrigable parts of their land. Three reasons that's a losing argument today: 1) the water needed to irrigate the irrigable portions of tribal lands falls out of the sky--no need to access storage rights, 2) tribes in SE by and large for the past 100 years haven't used their land for agriculture; 3) we don't have reservations in Oklahoma, only former reservations.

Of course there's a 4th reason too--that you don't get to wait 150+ years and only THEN assert you have rights to certain specific water that you've never claimed before only after someone else paid for it to be stored.

[Bellaboo]

Even the tribes are in disarray over the issue of ownership, whereas the Choctaw and Chickasaw are making a claim, the Caddoan tribe is claiming indigenous rights, as being the original owners, therefore over riding any transplanted tribes rights to the water.

[Midtowner]

There is no such thing as indigenous water rights in U.S. law. The furthest extent is the Winters case, which only applies to peoples settled onto reservations. On the other hand, there has long been the concept of acquisition of land by conquest. Whether we committed crimes in the past and were somehow unfair, we went to war with the indigenous peoples who previously inhabited this land or otherwise bargained with them for them to give up their indigenous claims. Was it fair? Nope. Is life fair? Nope.

And let's do some navel gazing.. what does aboriginal even mean? I mean it's established that the Indian peoples of North and South America likely migrated here across the Bering Straits or otherwise from Asia, so are they really aboriginal? Did they find SE Oklahoma before the Vikings? Does the first people to find a piece of land get forever-dibs? Empires rise and fall. Indigenous peoples have relocated or been forced to relocate or have been exterminated many times. Even the Caddo were run out of their land by the Osage. At some point, the sovereign actually able to exercise control over a resource should be able to do so. In other words, might makes right. At least it does if the offended sovereign waits 200+ years to register a complaint.

[law]

My understanding is the Cheyenne Arapaho would be claiming outright ownership of at least a portion of the water. They still have tribal grounds adjoining the Corps property. Ft Cantonment is on tribal grounds adjoining the lake itself, so they have shoreline. While they are not doing anything legally now, that may change depending on other lawsuits and the political situation inside the tribe. I believe the Choctaws and Chickasaws are in negotiations in their suit, not just the cost of the water, but control of the water. Water law is a very complex issue in Oklahoma. I believe there will be many very expensive lawsuits in the future, and it will take many years to decide those cases. I would never attempt to predict the decision of a federal judge.

[Dubya61]

I would never attempt to predict the decision of a federal judge.

Especially when what Dallas is saying is that they own 1/4 of the water in the river basin, but can only draw their 1/4 by crossing state lines even though they have access to water from the river basin without crossing state lines.

I would also never attempt to discern the true motives of any of the tribes/business entities involved in the legal battles.

ETA: Midtowner's got it right. It's an uphill legal battle for anyone opposing OKC on this particular issue. Politics, now ... that may muddy the waters considerably.

[Edgar]

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

[Bellaboo]

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

Not to be too harsh, but Edgar, come back when you can vote.....

[Bellaboo]

Especially when what Dallas is saying is that they own 1/4 of the water in the river basin, but can only draw their 1/4 by crossing state lines even though they have access to water from the river basin without crossing state lines.

I would also never attempt to discern the true motives of any of the tribes/business entities involved in the legal battles.

ETA: Midtowner's got it right. It's an uphill legal battle for anyone opposing OKC on this particular issue. Politics, now ... that may muddy the waters considerably.

Dallas wants Oklahoma water. The water in the Red has a high saline content. They want the excess water flowing into the Red from Oklahoma above a certain water point before it meets the Red River. At least that is what they wanted a few years back.

[MikeLucky]

Can tell from all the Alfred E Newman what me worry about Canton comments that people with a conscience feel bad about what OKC did to Canton. Don't fret, not talking about you Midtown. You'll all feel better with an apology to our fellow Okies in NW Ok, and an admission that the deed done not for need but esthetics for a movie shoot and pretty location shots during the NBA finals. The Spirit of Canton Lake no doubt tore Westbrook's meniscus.
Thank God the tribes have raparian rights long predating statehood, and now have the money to fight yet another resource grab, this time in the Kiamichi Watershed. For the sake of SE Ok pray for their success. It'll be a tragedy if the greedy hicks in OKC get their hands on Sardis.

So you would prefer that the greedy hicks in Texas take your water instead? Because that is what will happen if the tribes win. And, if Dallas starts taking our water, it'll make OKC's water policies look like child's play.... count on that.

[Edgar]

There is a serious case of prejection going on when the hicks in OKC accuse the tribes of only being in the fight for the money. Natives have a reverance for the Creator's blessing and don't view it as an asset to exploit for profit. The Kiamichi Watershed belongs to the people of SE Ok. They're not holding it for when OKC residents need to water 63rd St in August. OKC provoked this court case with their stong arm good ole boy network tactic, a complicit OWRB, and never returning the tribes phone calls on the issue. Kick dirt in their faces one more time. Pray for their success.