New Downtown Arena

[Laramie]

American Family Field (formerly Miller Park) broke ground, November 9, 1996 opened 2001 at a cost of $400 million = $661 million in 2022 dollars. The stadium has a retractable roof:

Beautiful ballpark with plenty of sky and light.

BTW: A public taxpayer funded venue.

[April in the Plaza]

American Family Field (formerly Miller Park) broke ground, November 9, 1996 opened 2001 at a cost of $400 million = $661 million in 2022 dollars. The stadium has a retractable roof:

Beautiful ballpark with plenty of sky and light.

BTW: A public taxpayer funded venue.

That's a pretty interesting progression, though, that Milwaukee paid for 100% of Miller Park in 1996 but then managed to have sufficient leverage -- as a proper Big League City -- such that the Bucks chipped in 200MM to construct the FiServ Forum.

[BG918]

Let's continue with the discussion, to my observation we'll just have to agree to disagree. Most posters IMO know our current arena is inadequate for the long-term viability of hosting an NBA franchise.

This is Oklahoma City & Oklahoma's NBA team supported by the corporations, ownership and the fans.

Our current arena needs to be replaced with something more State-of-the art comparable to Milwaukee's $524 million Fiserv Forum and San Francisco's $1.4 billion Chase Center. Time to invest is now, let's go big and build an arena that will last for the next five decades or longer with minimum upgrades.

Want to see an arena with eye appeal of T-Mobile (formerly Sprint Center) in Kansas City and more impressive than Golden 1 Center in Sacramento.

In that case a more “classic” design would be better like AA in Dallas, Little Caesar’s in Detroit or Nationwide in Columbus. The most important thing IMO is that this isn’t just an arena but includes mixed-use retail/restaurant space along the ground floor.

[Dob Hooligan]

FiServ might be the prime example of how inane, and insane, discussions of owner contributions are.

From what I read FiServ Forum cost $500 million, $600 million, or even $1.2 billion. Bucks ownership contributed anywhere from 50% to 17% of the total cost. The Bucks contribution was intertwined with the sale of the team.

Lifelong Milwaukee resident US Senator Herb Kohl was the owner of the Bucks for over 25 years when he sold in 2013. It was reported the team sold for $550 million. Kohl paid $15 million for the team in 1984. He contributed $100 million to the arena deal. I’m guessing that amount would have gone to capital gains tax, so there was a mutual benefit to Kohl and the citizens of Milwaukee.

Wes Edens and Marc Lasry were the buyers of the Bucks in 2013, and reportedly contributed $100 million for arena construction. In the last ten years they got the arena built, drafted Giannis, won the title, Lasry’s son ran for the US Senate from Wisconsin, and Lasry sold his 25% interest in the Bucks to Jimmy and Dee Haslam for $850 million-ish.

Who is the philanthropist? Who is the great, civic leader? Who is the carpetbagger? All? One? None?

[aDark]

I recall someone here, or on social media, was speculating that we'd have renderings of what the arena could look like when the proposal was announced and prior to the vote. Mayor Holt seems to have cleared that speculation up by way of a recent reply on Twitter.

As I understand it, we'll be voting on the tax package based only on $$$, with renderings to come if it is passed. Makes sense that the City can't/won't spend on getting renderings before it's even passed. Bummed though, as I had somehow gotten it into my head that end of August/early September we'd learn what the future could hold.

[Laramie]

.

Just by the mayor's reaction in 2023 State of the City Address, got the impression the City and the ownership group are much further along with this development.

We should see sometime in September-November renderings--maybe several exterior designs to choose from of an impressive State-of-the-art nearly billion dollar arena on the PSM four square super block site.

________Placeholder for new Oklahoma City billion dollar arena.

Since one of the owner's bank (Mid-First) may be involved with funding to allow the new arena early
construction with a loan, the arena probably won't follow the previous debt-free sales tax collection patterns used with MAPS funding. Once the new arena is approved by voters, look for construction to begin.

Expect the new arena to seat somewhere in the 18,000 - 18,500 seating capacity, exceeding 725,000 total square footage.

[April in the Plaza]

It sounds like both sides understand that $75M just isn’t going to cut it.

That might have worked in 2015 or so, but $75M might as well be $0 given what things cost to build in 2023.

[caaokc]

I recall someone here, or on social media, was speculating that we'd have renderings of what the arena could look like when the proposal was announced and prior to the vote. Mayor Holt seems to have cleared that speculation up by way of a recent reply on Twitter.

As I understand it, we'll be voting on the tax package based only on $$$, with renderings to come if it is passed. Makes sense that the City can't/won't spend on getting renderings before it's even passed. Bummed though, as I had somehow gotten it into my head that end of August/early September we'd learn what the future could hold.

Interesting. You’d think that seeing the renderings before could influence voting in a positive way.

[caaokc]

Maybe they’ll “leak” to get feedback

[aDark]

.

Just by the mayor's reaction in 2023 State of the City Address, got the impression the City and the ownership group are much further along with this development.

We should see sometime in September-November renderings--maybe several exterior designs to choose from of an impressive State-of-the-art nearly billion dollar arena on the PSM four square super block site.

________Placeholder for new Oklahoma City billion dollar arena.

Since one of the owner's bank (Mid-First) may be involved with funding to allow the new arena early
construction with a loan, the arena probably won't follow the previous debt-free sales tax collection patterns used with MAPS funding. Once the new arena is approved by voters, look for construction to begin.

Expect the new arena to seat somewhere in the 18,000 - 18,500 seating capacity, exceeding 725,000 total square footage.

No, the mayor quite literally said that “process unfolds after the commitment is made to proceed by the voters.”

I don’t think we should keep circulating rumors of renderings- unless someone knows something I don’t know.

[Urbanized]

Plans alone will cost millions of dollars. Right now there is zero budget to create said plans. Even once this measure (hopefully) passes, there will be no tax funds collected until after MAPS 4 collections end (2028).

Moving forward quickly will require debt, which is one of the reasons this effort will not be called MAPS; the entire MAPS brand is built around pay-as-you-go, debt-free projects.

The only way they will be able to move forward on the desired timeline (move-in prior to 2030) will be to associate significant debt with the project, and NOBODY is going to take on debt before the measure passes, ESPECIALLY the City of Oklahoma City. Not to mention the site has not even been fully determined yet (true, regardless of what someone following along on the Internet might think).

You might see a placeholder conceptual in marketing materials, but similarly to the ones shown in the lead up to the original MAPS and the construction of what is now Paycom, the marketing conceptual will bear little or no resemblance to the finished product.

When they mayor says most of this will only begin to unfold once the measure passes, believe him.

[Laramie]

No, the mayor quite literally said that “process unfolds after the commitment is made to proceed by the voters.”

I don’t think we should keep circulating rumors of renderings- unless someone knows something I don’t know.

We all are clueless about any information or renderings.

“process unfolds after the commitment is made to proceed by the voters.” --True statement

Used Louisville's (similar in OKC's MSA size) KFC 'Yum' Arena since it was designed specifically to lure NBA Basketball; also shared interest with University of Louisville and concerts.

Louisville hosted the ABA Kentucky Colonels before the NBA-ABA merger. They wanted an NBA franchise decades before OKC. Louisville offered the Hornets Freedom Hall (Fairgrounds) after Katrina, our new DT arena was offered to Hornets' owner George Shinn. OKC exceeded the 12,500 fan break even mark with a whopping 18,168 average the first year of temporary relocation---Shinn inquired about a permanent move to Oklahoma City.

Don't recall any MAPS projects, beginning with our first (Bricktown Ballpark) where you didn't see some kind of renderings before the vote. Recall seeing the Bricktown Ballpark presented to the council with an upper deck (One the council selected) and one with mostly suites in the upper deck.

BTW, Holt put $70 million earmarked for Paycom Center on 'pause' to go toward the new NBA arena. Anyone think that money can't be used toward architectural designs... You're not going to sell a near billion dollar arena to the voters without some kind of specs, designs or renderings. This will be the largest single MAPS development project (future collections will be used to pay off loan) our city has ever seen.

Also, the ownership's commitment, could some of those funds be advanced for architectural designs before the vote. It's in the ownership's interest for this to pass; the arena could cost $750 million to $1 billion--group visited Milwaukee's Fiserv Forum ($524 million), you bet OKC wants to exceed those specifications. Don't recall any budget with a figure or arena price tag.

[Laramie]

Pete commented about the ownership chipping in $70 million which turned out to be $75 million--his comment was based on a creditable source. That $75 million probably represent 10% of what the arena's budget will be: $750 million.

He also cleared the misinformation (Oklahoman published) about the PSM lease agreement. City needs to get this agreement off the books.

Don't see a $1 billion arena development unless there is more planned than the arena itself.

The PSM 4-square block site is (IMO) the most logical and economical choice for a new arena; since the city already owns this land. Parking underneath will need to be rebuilt or restructured and reinforced once PSM is demolished.

Meanwhile: The Bod Howard parcel continues to inflate its value as a result of its location as land values in DT OKC continues to rise.

[lpsooner]

Plans alone will cost millions of dollars. Right now there is zero budget to create said plans. Even once this measure (hopefully) passes, there will be no tax funds collected until after MAPS 4 collections end (2028).

Moving forward quickly will require debt, which is one of the reasons this effort will not be called MAPS; the entire MAPS brand is built around pay-as-you-go, debt-free projects.

The only way they will be able to move forward on the desired timeline (move-in prior to 2030) will be to associate significant debt with the project, and NOBODY is going to take on debt before the measure passes, ESPECIALLY the City of Oklahoma City. Not to mention the site has not even been fully determined yet (true, regardless of what someone following along on the Internet might think).

You might see a placeholder conceptual in marketing materials, but similarly to the ones shown in the lead up to the original MAPS and the construction of what is now Paycom, the marketing conceptual will bear little or no resemblance to the finished product.

When they mayor says most of this will only begin to unfold once the measure passes, believe him.

This is disappointing to read. No one expects to have fully developed construction plans but if the whole pitch is "give us a billion dollars and will tell what we're doing with it later" then it gives me pause. And I'm a die-hard Thunder fan who wants this to happen more than most. But it makes me leery that they won't give us any details about the project before asking us to vote. That's a BIG ask imo.

[Teo9969]

I recall the MAPS 3 marketing before the vote had plenty of imagery. I don't think anyone is saying we'll have detailed floor plans with electrical and duct work laid out, but a "rendering" with general massing and points about what they anticipate being available by 2030(ish) along with some broad idea of what a budget might look like...all of that has historical precedent, right?

[chssooner]

I recall the MAPS 3 marketing before the vote had plenty of imagery. I don't think anyone is saying we'll have detailed floor plans with electrical and duct work laid out, but a "rendering" with general massing and points about what they anticipate being available by 2030(ish) along with some broad idea of what a budget might look like...all of that has historical precedent, right?

The difference between $650 or $750 million and $1 billion is MASSIVE. So why not wait until you know how much money you will truly have before putting out something grand, then not being able to fund it? Or putting out something on the low end, and upsetting people by not being too grand? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[scottk]

I recall the MAPS 3 marketing before the vote had plenty of imagery. I don't think anyone is saying we'll have detailed floor plans with electrical and duct work laid out, but a "rendering" with general massing and points about what they anticipate being available by 2030(ish) along with some broad idea of what a budget might look like...all of that has historical precedent, right?

My memory says yes. All the MAPS projects, dating back to 30 years, have closely resembled what the initial renderings/images looked like. The current arena when it was pushed to "Finish MAPS right" campaign was very close to what we got with the original Ford Center in 2002.

[PoliSciGuy]

Pete commented about the ownership chipping in $70 million which turned out to be $75 million--his comment was based on a creditable source. That $75 million probably represent 10% of what the arena's budget will be: $750 million.

He also cleared the misinformation (Oklahoman published) about the PSM lease agreement. City needs to get this agreement off the books.

Don't see a $1 billion arena development unless there is more planned than the arena itself.

The PSM 4-square block site is (IMO) the most logical and economical choice for a new arena; since the city already owns this land. Parking underneath will need to be rebuilt or restructured and reinforced once PSM is demolished.

Meanwhile: The Bod Howard parcel continues to inflate its value as a result of its location as land values in DT OKC continues to rise.

Glad to see a lower overall dollar investment (and thus a slightly higher percentage investment from the team). We should be able to still build a top of the line arena for $750m.

[Laramie]

Glad to see a lower overall dollar investment (and thus a slightly higher percentage investment from the team). We should be able to still build a top of the line arena for $750m.

If the City and the Thunder ownership agreed to a $750 million arena, you would vote for it?

Factoring in inflation/loan interest rate, OKC could build something comparable or better than Milwaukee's
Fiserv Forum on city owned land.

Get the loan details, plans and renderings before the public, a $750 million arena will easily pass an extension
vote of MAPS 4.

[April in the Plaza]

If the City and the Thunder ownership agreed to a $750 million arena, you would vote for it?

Factoring in inflation/loan interest rate, OKC could build something comparable or better than Milwaukee's
Fiserv Forum on city owned land.

Get the loan details, plans and renderings before the public, a $750 million arena will easily pass an extension
vote of MAPS 4.

Fiserv cost $1.2B in 2016. Given the increases in labor and materials, a similar facility would cost $1.4B or more.

ETA: I'm thinking someone jacked with Wikipedia. Lots of other sources saying it was ~$525MM.

[Thunderbolt]

Fiserv cost $1.2B in 2016. Given the increases in labor and materials, a similar facility would cost $1.4B or more.

ETA: I'm thinking someone jacked with Wikipedia. Lots of other sources saying it was ~$525MM.

Did they jack all of the local newspaper coverage too???

https://www.jsonline.com/story/opini...le/5384338001/

"The Fiserv Forum cost $524 million — $250 million from taxpayers in various forms, $174 million from the team’s owners and $100 million from former Sen. Herb Kohl"

[BG918]

Fiserv cost $1.2B in 2016. Given the increases in labor and materials, a similar facility would cost $1.4B or more.

ETA: I'm thinking someone jacked with Wikipedia. Lots of other sources saying it was ~$525MM.

Yeah no way Fiserv was over $1B. Maybe including the surrounding Deer District

[Laramie]

Insider Business



Bucks president Peter Feigin, who helped head the project, spoke with Business Insider about the
$524 million arena, the club suites, food options, design features, and surrounding plaza, which will
have a brewery, beer garden, sports bar, residential space, and more.

Link: https://www.businessinsider.com/buck...on-august-26-2

You will probably see a new arena in the $675 - $750 million range, it will probably blend in more with
the new convention center and Omni Hotel complex. The glass facade seems to be a main feature of
the Milwaukee and Louisville arenas.

[Mountaingoat]

From the Milwaukee newspaper:

The Fiserv Forum cost $524 million — $250 million from taxpayers in various forms, $174 million from the team’s owners and $100 million from former Sen. Herb Kohl, who saved the team from leaving Milwaukee not once but twice

[Laramie]

Arena race: San Antonio, Oklahoma City, New Orleans & Las Vegas.


Sounds, familiar . . .