LifeChurchTV

[Midtowner]

Kodak moment.

[Randy]

Profanity darling? Where have I used that? I say nothing that can't be said on TV.

The anti-Catholic comments are noted. What are you implying here? Can you make an intelligent comment/arguement, or are your abilities in using the written word limited to swill such as the above?

Let's get back to the fact that you contradict yourself which you seem not to want to admit even though it's plainly obvious. In one sentence, you said:

"We don't attend services to be entertained," and in the next sentence, you said "Nobody wants to sit through a boring, routine, church service on Sunday."

Think really hard back to grade school -- you learned important concepts there. Two (or really one) that will come in quite handy in catching yourself making self-contradictory arguments is/are the differenc(es) between syonyms and antenyms.

You see, a synonym is two things that are the same -- say I say that I'm entertained. I could also say that I was amused. Amused and entertain mean the same thing, thus they are synonyms.

As for antenyms, those two things are diff-er-ent. For example, you said you "Didn't" want to be entertained in one sentence and then you said that you wouldn't go to a boring service. You see.. entertained and bored are diff-er-ent -- they're antenyms.

Now, here's the neat part. Since you used the word "entertain" in a negative context, in other words, you didn't go to be entertained, it would have been the same thing as saying "I don't want to be not bored" (as awkward as it is). Then you turned around and said you wouldn't want to go to a not boreing service... So in essence, you said:

1. 'I don't go to be not bored.' Then,
2. 'I would not go if it made me bored.'

Now that I've spelled that out for you in such a way that first grader could understand it, not allowing for nasty little abstract and complicated terms that might confuse, please address it.

I look forward to your reply.

Gosh, I really don't know how to explain it any clearer to you. My 5 year old nephew understands it better than you do. Go figure.

Yes, you use profanity on your posts. Whether they say it on TV or not doesn't matter. There are all kinds of profanity on TV, but that doesn't make it right.

Your above post makes no sense. You tried to explain it in your "intellectual" way, but I don't think you even knew what you were saying.

If you feel that attending a routine service and saying a few "Hail Mary's" will get you through the next week, then that's your choice. Make sure you take your no-doze pills, because you will need them to stay awake.

Now, since you can't seem to grasp what I am telling you, then I will give up trying, and have an intelligent conversation with someone who does understand, my 5 year old nephew. At least he knows what I'm saying.

Adios. You aren't worth my time.

[Midtowner]

Randy, where have I used profanity? Perhaps what is profane to you is not to me? I suppose it's a subjective matter -- I'll give you a pass on it.

My above post explains things that are 'the same' and 'different.' I tried to take these very (not) complicated concepts and boil them down to their core meanings so you could see what a contradiction you were trying to convince me of.

Either you didn't read or lack the raw material to comprehend the above...

Then you proceed to attack Catholicism, and in doing so show how utterly clueless you are about that religion. Have you been to a Catholic mass? There are truly all kinds -- charismatic 'new' type of masses exist. Still pretty conservative, but St. John's up in Edmond is damn near a hootinanny.

Randy, the personal insults are so very Christian of you. Way to witness buddy.

[writerranger]

I have to agree in this thread - again - with Midtowner. Randy, your anti-Catholicism is sickening. It's one thing for us to question a style of worship. It's quite another to bash the largest Christian group in the world. I am not a Catholic, but frankly, I feel much closer to God at a Catholic mass than I do at a P.T. Barnum produced show with lasers, fog, crying "spirit-filled" preachers, giant screen monitors, etc. Do me a favor: read the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew Chapters 5-7) and tell me who comes closer to that CLEARLY DEFINED mission: the Catholic Church or the Disney churches. I think it's more than clear.

- A former charismatic Christian who woke up to the fakery in Church-As-Entertainment.

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[Randy]

I have to agree in this thread - again - with Midtowner. Randy, your anti-Catholicism is sickening. It's one thing for us to question a style of worship. It's quite another to bash the largest Christian group in the world. I am not a Catholic, but frankly, I feel much closer to God at a Catholic mass than I do at a P.T. Barnum produced show with lasers, fog, crying "spirit-filled" preachers, giant screen monitors, etc. Do me a favor: read the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew Chapters 5-7) and tell me who comes closer to that CLEARLY DEFINED mission: the Catholic Church or the Disney churches. I think it's more than clear.

- A former charismatic Christian who woke up to the fakery in Church-As-Entertainment.

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First of all, I did not bash the Catholic Church. All I did was point out how routine and unexciting their churches are. Now, if you feel closer to God at a Catholic mass than a spirit filled, high energy worship service, then maybe you need to examine your own life instead of trying to judge mine.

Go ahead and make fun of charismatic churches, but I would rather be around some spirit filled, charismatics than some boring, let's say a few hail mary's, catholics. Again, not bashing catholics, just stating the facts. I have been a Christian, probably longer than you have been alive, so don't try to insult my intelligence by suggesting I read the "Sermon on the Mount." For your information, I have that story memorized.

- an excited, spirit filled Christian, who is sick and tired of phony denominations that claim to "worship."

Ok, now that I have answered Mid's post and answered your post, I am finished.

PS. I hope you guys make it to your "worship" services this morning.

[bandnerd]

Okay, being the person that I am (not very religious, don't attend church) this will probably be taken with a grain of salt, but I have to put in my 2 cents anyway because that's who I am.

I used to go to the "popular" church in my little town. I tried to fit in, went every Sunday and to Wednesday night youth groups when I didn't have too much homework. All the cool kids went...I'm not making this up, seriously...but I never "fit" with this group. The pastor would go on basically that we were all sinners and going to hell, etc...this was a Baptist church, btw. Anyway, I got really tired of the fire and brimstone crap, the flashy music, the big screens on the wall...what was the point? It didn't actually "mean" anything to me.

I went to a Catholic mass last year with the future mr. bandnerd. It was at St. Joe's downtown. The church was beautiful, the people kind, the sermon very, very meaningful to me at the time (my dad was very ill with cancer and I have questioned faith and religion for a long time, and the sermon was about questioning God's existence during times of pain and crisis...very timely). The music was amazing, listening to the priest sing and chant was nothing like I've ever heard before. I had no idea what was going on when it was in Latin, but the music was something that didn't need explanation. When we greeted the others around us, I felt that the people were actually being heartfelt in greeting the newbie. I have never, EVER gotten that feeling from a popular, charismatic church.

To each, his/her own. Just because you may think it is "boring" does not mean it can't be meaningful to others. We don't all need guitars and strobe lights to keep our attentions focused. I always thought church was for worship and fellowship (though I never got that feeling back at the church in my hometown) not for strobe lights and pizza parties.

[osupa05]

As a christian, church to me is not a building or a service (whether traditional or contemporary)... Church is the body of believers, otherwise known as the body of Christ.. the point is not where you meet, but it's all about who you are in Christ! Meet at a traditional place of worship or meet at a contemporary place... the point is, as a christian, pick a place that preaches only the bible to fellowship with other christians! I just got back from New Orleans where 5 months post Katrina there is very little that has changed! The devestation was indescribeable! Who's down there helping these people who lost everything? It's the chruch! The body of Christ is down there donating their time and money to give these people a little bit of hope. It's not about religion down there. It's about bringing God's love to people who need it... which is how it should be everyday of our life with every person that we meet! We made just a tiny, tiny, tiny dent in a problem that's nothing short of God-sized! Quit fighting about whose "church" is better and start showing people the light! In the end it won't be about what "church" you went to, but about the condition of your own heart!

[Midtowner]

osupa, with all due respect, it's not about whose church is better. It's about one individual claiming at once that he doesn't go to his church becuase it's exciting, and at the same time stating he wouldn't go to a church that was boreing. It's about a certain individual then denying (to everyone's great amusement) that he is contradicting himself. It's about dishonesty and silliness.

Bandnerd makes a point.. what the heck do lasers, big screens, pyrotechnics, etc. have to do with the message of Jesus Christ? Please make a connection.. any connection. For a church that claims to be based in the Bible, I saw nothing in the Bible to suggest that they ought to sell t-shirts and bumper stickers in the backroom for a signficant markup to pay for massive overhead...

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

[PUGalicious]

...then maybe you need to examine your own life instead of trying to judge mine.

Pot calling the kettle black...

Matthew 7:1-5

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Worship is an attitude and a matter of the heart, not a style of religious practice or a particular church. It's very telling that certain people seem to be unable to worship in "routine and unexciting churches" and rely on the crutch of a "a spirit filled, high energy worship service" to get to a place of worship.

It's also telling that someone who claims to have the Sermon on the Mount memorized seems to be disconnected with some of its basic tenets:

"Blessed are the meek..." (Matthew 5:5)
"Blessed are the merciful..." (Matthew 5:7)
"Blessed are the pure in heart..." (Matthew 5:8)
"Blessed are the peacemakers..." (Matthew 5:9)

and then there are those other commands:

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." (Matthew 5:44)

And that verse I quoted at the top. (Matthew 7:1-5)

I think the most appropriate response can be found in Matthew 7:20:

"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

[osupa05]

osupa, with all due respect, it's not about whose church is better. It's about one individual claiming at once that he doesn't go to his church becuase it's exciting, and at the same time stating he wouldn't go to a church that was boreing. It's about a certain individual then denying (to everyone's great amusement) that he is contradicting himself. It's about dishonesty and silliness.

Bandnerd makes a point.. what the heck do lasers, big screens, pyrotechnics, etc. have to do with the message of Jesus Christ? Please make a connection.. any connection. For a church that claims to be based in the Bible, I saw nothing in the Bible to suggest that they ought to sell t-shirts and bumper stickers in the backroom for a signficant markup to pay for massive overhead...

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Lasers, big screens and whatever have everything to do with the message of Jesus Christ if God uses them to reach people who otherwise would go unreached! It, once again, is not about the method... Jesus ate dinner with the sinful tax collector to reach out to him... if it's not sin (no where in the bible does it say that thou shall not use loud music and lights to worship the most high God) then it can/should/will be done to get the word of God out! Some of the most awesome moments in the bible were filled with loud music (the fall of the wall in Jericho), David using instruments and dancing to praise God). It says to make a joyful noise! Just because I wear a sweatshirt that identifies me as going to a certain place to woship doesn't mean that they "needed" my money to because of all the bright lights! Sure, there are electric bills to pay (I'm sure that any place that uses any sort of electric light has to pay one), but if you look at the way some churches are set up (especially ones like Lifechurch, where there are multiple campuses all over the nation) you will find that it is very economical... and that putting a "pricetag" on the salvation of a soul is just another way man puts God in a box! If you will recall, Jesus turned a few fish and a few loaves of bread into a feast! How much more can he then multiple whatever I choose to give, no matter how much or how little it is? The church that I attend is very missions oriented, which is what it's all about... reaching people, equipping them and sending them back out! Mid, I challenge you to go to New Orleans and see how the barriers of denominations have crumbled and how God is moving there!

[Keith]

Lasers, big screens and whatever have everything to do with the message of Jesus Christ if God uses them to reach people who otherwise would go unreached! It, once again, is not about the method... Jesus ate dinner with the sinful tax collector to reach out to him... if it's not sin (no where in the bible does it say that thou shall not use loud music and lights to worship the most high God) then it can/should/will be done to get the word of God out! Some of the most awesome moments in the bible were filled with loud music (the fall of the wall in Jericho), David using instruments and dancing to praise God). It says to make a joyful noise! Just because I wear a sweatshirt that identifies me as going to a certain place to woship doesn't mean that they "needed" my money to because of all the bright lights! Sure, there are electric bills to pay (I'm sure that any place that uses any sort of electric light has to pay one), but if you look at the way some churches are set up (especially ones like Lifechurch, where there are multiple campuses all over the nation) you will find that it is very economical... and that putting a "pricetag" on the salvation of a soul is just another way man puts God in a box! If you will recall, Jesus turned a few fish and a few loaves of bread into a feast! How much more can he then multiple whatever I choose to give, no matter how much or how little it is? The church that I attend is very missions oriented, which is what it's all about... reaching people, equipping them and sending them back out! Mid, I challenge you to go to New Orleans and see how the barriers of denominations have crumbled and how God is moving there!

Excellent post.....very well said.

[OkieBear]

I fully agree with Scribe when he says:
"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

I think hundreds of people coming to Christ every week at Life Church is some pretty sweet fruit! That's all that counts at the end of the day. The method and the style are secondary to bringing people to become fully devoted followers of Christ. If people are coming to Christ through quiet music and subdued sermons, that's great! Others, many others, are coming to Christ through Life Church-style worship. It's all the same result. People who were once lost in sin are now going to have eternal life.

[metro]

Don't know how many of you are Lifers. Was just curious as to what your thoughts were on where LIFE's next campus will be when it is announced next week. I'm guessing either Bethany/Warr Acres area (NW OKC area) or I would like to say downtown. I guess Norman could be a possibility but my top pick I would say West OKC. I know they almost expanded here instead when they expanded to Southside. They definitely need another location more in the Central part of OKC. The OKC campus is to the farthest North part of OKC so makes quite a drive for a lot of people.

[OkieBear]

I'm guessing either Norman or farther west, like Yukon. I know someone who lives close to downtown and she goes to S. Side because it's easier to get to than North OKC, so central OKC may not be a bad guess either.

[Midtowner]

Don't know how many of you are Lifers. Was just curious as to what your thoughts were on where LIFE's next campus will be when it is announced next week. I'm guessing either Bethany/Warr Acres area (NW OKC area) or I would like to say downtown. I guess Norman could be a possibility but my top pick I would say West OKC. I know they almost expanded here instead when they expanded to Southside. They definitely need another location more in the Central part of OKC. The OKC campus is to the farthest North part of OKC so makes quite a drive for a lot of people.

Are they growing by merger/acquisition or are they franchising a new location? What's the franchise fee anyone know? This has got to be a hugely profitable venture...

[OkieBear]

Are they growing by merger/acquisition or are they franchising a new location? What's the franchise fee anyone know? This has got to be a hugely profitable venture...

The Fort Worth, TX campus was a merger with another church. Since the next one hasn't been announced yet, we don't know whether it is a merger or a brand new campus. But I suspect it is new.

[Midtowner]

Do you have any information about Lifechurch heading for an IPO? I'd seriously be interested.

[OkieBear]

Do you have any information about Lifechurch heading for an IPO? I'd seriously be interested.

I know you aren't a big fan of Life Church, but let's not go down that road, okay?

[metro]

franchise fee? it's not a business, it is a non-profit church. if you mean profitable as in bringing unsaved or unchurched people in then I would have to agree but as far as money wise I would have to disagree. My guess is that they will go into an existing shopping center or another church has expressed interest into becoming an affililate. I'm still guessing West OKC

[Midtowner]

Not for profit?

That's hilarious. Tell me another one.

[Randy]

Not for profit?

That's hilarious. Tell me another one.

We all know you detest religion, and think that a church is a business out to make money, but you are wrong>>>again, but we expect that kind of answer from you.

Guys, debating with Mid is like beating your head against the wall. He debates and makes fun of other people for the fun of it.

[Jack]

What ever happened to churches planting mission churches? Seems like Life Church is just hanging onto these campuses to make more money.

[Midtowner]

We all know you detest religion, and think that a church is a business out to make money, but you are wrong>>>again, but we expect that kind of answer from you.

Guys, debating with Mid is like beating your head against the wall. He debates and makes fun of other people for the fun of it.

You have got it totally wrong Randy. In any event, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself.

I don't detest religion, I just detest phony religion that takes advantage of gullible people. LifeChurch is not religion -- it's a rock'n roll concert where they talk about some Christian stuff and pass a collection plate.

It's a place that talks a lot about tithing and it's a place that has a really healthy bottom line.

To some extent, it's a personality cult centered around Mr. Groeschel, to some further extent, it's more of a social gathering than a church.

At any rate Randy, I don't really detest it as much as I think it's absolutely silly. If you like it, hooray for you. Personally, I don't need lasers, smoke, and loud music to contemplate my existance.. Strangely, (I guess) I find them distracting.

That aside, LifeChurch is making several people a TON of $$$. Jeebus meets Steven Covey.. It's a great thing. Actually, I'm just sad that I didn't think about it first

In 20 years, we'll have something new, and the Lifechurch crowd will be much the same as the folks that take that lady with the pink-beehive hairdo (on Channel 14 I think) seriously.. Who are those people and how in the heck can they afford a TV station!?

[writerranger]

Midtowner, You're talking about Paul and Jan Crouch, right? They own TBN and have stations all over the world. Apologetics.com has a zip file with articles from a Three-part/Five-article series from the Orange County Register . The articles expose them as the frauds they are. You can download the zip file with all the OCR articles here:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/tbnarticles.zip (the file is safe)

[OkieBear]

What ever happened to churches planting mission churches? Seems like Life Church is just hanging onto these campuses to make more money.

Life Church has and does plant mission churches. They just planted one in Tulsa last year. Not the LC Tulsa campus, but a distinct, fully independent church. And Life's multi-campus approach is not new. It is just what the leadership believes is best for this church, for several reasons.

First, the bible says we are to go into all the world to preach the gospel. LC could save all that money and build one huge building and ask people to come to it. There is nothing wrong with that, but that isn't what LC is all about. And LC isn't going into years of debt to build new buildings. When the South OKC campus started, it was paid for in cash. Isn't that a good thing for a church to accomplish? Apparently not for some of you.

Second, it allows more effective use of staff. With a central staff and central planning team they need less staff on each campus, and they maintain consistency between the campuses. The goals are the same and the message is the same, but each campus has a distinct relationship with the community where it is located. This frees up more money for missions and charity work, which is a huge part of LC.

Third, Christ can change more lives. If LC is going to the people, they are more likely to hear the good news of Jesus's saving grace. The loud music and exciting worship is a tool to bring people in who wouldn't otherwise set foot in a traditional church. That's probably why traditional, mainline churches are losing people right and left, but churches like LC are growing by leaps and bounds, and people are coming to Christ by the thousands every year.

Craig says himself that this is not the best way to do church, but it's the best way for LC. If you prefer to go to your quiet, traditional church where you can contemplate your existance, that's fine. But you should be careful criticizing that which you do not understand.

By the way Mid, I wish I had your connections so I could know the fanancial standing of other churches. You seem to have insight into who is making how much at LC and you don't even attend there. Do you know their accountant?