Guardian: Oklahoma isn't working.

[Pete]

I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

And even with the occasional school district bond add-on's OK property taxes are still incredibly low compared to anywhere else.

[Swake]

I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

[Jersey Boss]

^^^ "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree."

[Jersey Boss]

And even with the occasional school district bond add-on's OK property taxes are still incredibly low compared to anywhere else.

Outrage at low property taxes, yet none at the regressive tax on groceries. Go figure.

[dankrutka]

The problem is and has always been a disconnect between what the people SAY they want the government to do (schools, roads, health, etc.) and what they are willing to pay for. This is true at all levels of government.

Yeah, but Oklahomans and their legislators have been more unwilling to do these things than almost any other state. It was a stunning failure that as schools are falling apart that the legislature did nothing last session... and while a lot of Oklahomans say this is bad, they don't really motivated enough to change it. In other states, it doesn't seem citizens let it get to this point of failure and disaster. For example, Kansas hit rock bottom with their ineffective tax cuts that gutted public spending and there has been a backlash. Hopefully, a backlash is coming in Oklahoma, but I'm not convinced there is the will to do it.

[Swake]

Outrage at low property taxes, yet none at the regressive tax on groceries. Go figure.

It’s the most regressive tax of all. The poorer a family is the higher percentage of their income they pay for food. In Oklahoma the effective tax rate is the higher to the more poor you are, not lower. This is nothing short of evil.

[Pete]

Yeah, but Oklahomans and their legislators have been more unwilling to do these things than almost any other state. It was a stunning failure that as schools are falling apart that the legislature did nothing last session... and while a lot of Oklahomans say this is bad, they don't really motivated enought to change it. In other states, it doesn't seem citizens don't let it get to this point of failure and disaster. For example, Kansas hit rock bottom with their ineffective tax cuts that gutted public spending and there has been a backlash. Hopefully, a backlash is coming in Oklahoma, but I'm not convinced their is the will to do it.

Things have definitely changed but I'm not sure how much.

I can't post any news on social media without a lot of people commenting "why are we spending money on this when our schools are in crisis?".

I'm hopeful people have finally started to understand the gravity.

[Pete]

Oklahoma taxes groceries (something only 14 states do) and does it at the standard 4.5% rate, which is a very high rate as previously noted.


https://taxfoundation.org/which-states-tax-groceries/

The following is a list of the states that do tax groceries, and if applicable, which ones apply a special rate on grocery items. All other states do not tax groceries.

States that tax groceries (rate if not fully taxed): Alabama, Arkansas (3%), Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois (1%), Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri (1.225%), Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee (5.5%), Utah (1.75%), Virginia (1.5% + 1% local option tax), and West Virginia (5%).

[chuck5815]

I really don't care where they are set - the point is that to paint a broad brush and say "property taxes are low" is just overlooking a reality - that "low state rate" is mythical to someone in a district where the additional local rates make the actual dollars paid higher. Just because it's "temporary" or "voter-approved" or whatever phrase is used to diffuse their reality doesn't make the dollar voluntary or less difficult to pay.

But, to be fair, you also live in Zip Code 73170, which is the highest income per capita zip code in the OKC Metro--higher than Nichols Hills and Gaillardia!! It makes sense that property taxes would be high in such an elite zip code.

[SoonerDave]

So your main voting issue is abortion, which is a federal question and not a state issue, and you are upset over your not really very high property taxes and not our bankrupt state and schools.

THIS is the problem in Oklahoma.

Huh!?!?!? Where on earth did *that* come from? I've not said one thing about abortion in this thread. I replied to *one* generalized comment about Christianity.

And you conclude I'm not upset about our schools? Really? One-third of our state's budget goes to education, yet teachers are paid like paupers and are buying their own supplies. I get that. You know *why* I get that? My *wife* is a teacher. I fume at my property taxes just as she walks in the door with a bag full of markers or notebooks or whatever else the school is out of or the parents can't buy, so I'm realizing I'm paying at the federal, state, and local level - then paying AGAIN when she goes out and buys supplies. So please save me the indignation about not caring about our bankrupt schools.

I want the wellhead tax raised to regional averages. I want unnecessary and excessive corporate incentives taken out. I also want this state to figure out how it can live within its means. It doesn't mean you have to be an extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing - there's *got* to be some semblance of a direction in the middle. Somewhere.

[SoonerDave]

^^^ "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree."

And there with it goes the implication that I'm not being taxed at all, which obviously isn't true. Next strawman.

[SoonerDave]

Here's a neutral third-party's assessment of national property tax rates. Oklahoma lands almost exactly in the middle (24th).

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...5/#real-estate

[Pete]

Here's a neutral third-party's assessment of national property tax rates. Oklahoma lands almost exactly in the middle (24th).

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...5/#real-estate

Same site I originally posted and their methodology in these calculations has nothing to do with % of tax paid on property.

It takes median property tax payment and divides by median house price. Has nothing to do with what people actually pay in tax.

You really should quit while behind here.

[TheTravellers]

I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church and my father is a preacher. There are indeed a lot of people who will say that a person cannot be a Christian if they don't vote Republican. Most in the denomination I grew up in believe its a sin to even vote for a pro-life Democrat since the Democratic Party supports abortion. Shortly before I stopped going to church in 2015, I was doing Christian counseling and my counselor literally told me with conviction that it's impossible for somebody to be a Christian and have voted for Obama.

What we have with Christianity is a "no true Scottsman" fallacy. Most Christians believe that those who are more right-wing doctrinally and authoritarian than them are Pharisees while those who are more liberal are apostates. You see this mindset across the entire spectrum.

Not to derail, but as a side note, coincidentally read this today, which backs up your narrative:

So much for Christian charity: Evangelicals blame the poor for poverty, which makes them a lot like other Republicans

"New research published in the Journal of Religion and Health suggests that Christian evangelical voters are more likely to support Donald Trump and the Republican Party because they have been conditioned by their religion to be irrational and thus inherently suspicious of empirical reality and reason."

Note that the article pretty specifically speaks about Christian *evangelicals* (which I label as "Christian" since in general, they don't have real Christian values), not Christians in general.

[SoonerDave]

Same site I originally posted and their methodology in these calculations have nothing to do with % of tax paid on property.

It takes median property tax payment and divides by median house price. Has nothing to do with what people actually pay in tax.

You really should quit while behind here.

Why is it OK as a source for your argument, but not for mine? It was an effort to put something objective into the discussion. Your original link was for a chart on *total* tax burden, mine was focused on property taxes (and auto taxes, to be complete, but that was ancillary to the discussion here).

[Pete]

Why is it OK as a source for your argument, but not for mine? It was an effort to put something objective into the discussion. Your original link was for a chart on *total* tax burden, mine was focused on property taxes (and auto taxes, to be complete, but that was ancillary to the discussion here).

Because your link has nothing to do with taxes actually paid. It's just some random calculation that has nothing to do with anything.

The link I posted broke out the tax burden by percentage by category including property tax.

You are just arguing against common sense because you don't like the objective answers being provided.


And BTW, Oklahoma's crazy low property tax rates also include a limitation on how much the value of a home -- and thus the property tax paid -- can increase per year. That limit is 5%, even if your home's actual appreciation is more than that. There is no downward limit if a house goes down in value.

So, the low rates themselves are based only on an estimated value that is kept artificially low until the house is sold, then the proper market value is reset.

[Pete]

Oklahoma is not all that bad of a state as long as you don't need state help from welfare, or are a state employee, such as a teacher.

Or have kids in public schools, or in college, or drive on roads, or need healthcare, or care about people with mental illness and other disabilities, etc., etc.... Or care about the long-term economic consequences of horrible education and vocation training.

Tax discussions always talk about 'welfare' when it is a tiny sliver of any government budget and is used a red herring for perceived over spending while having little bearing on the overall budgets.

[SoonerDave]

Because your link has nothing to do with taxes actually paid. It's just some random calculation that has nothing to do with anything.

No, it was based on the *median* value among actual property tax payments - and median from a large sample is a perfectly reasonable statistical tool and prevents wild values at either end from skewing as can occur with just a mean value. So you may not agree with their methodology, but to say its has "nothing to do with anything" is factually false.
[/quote]

The link I posted broke out the tax burden by percentage by category including property tax.

You are just arguing against common sense because you don't like the objective answers being provided.

Hardly objective, because you like one form of calculation from a given site, yet dislike the other from the same site merely because it doesn't support your opinion. You keep trying to insist that there's absolutely no argument against your position, and if someone opposes you, you belittle them for "arguing against common sense" and implying your *own* argument is beyond reproach. I'll toss out a *different* site (https://taxfoundation.org/how-high-a...ur-state-2016/) that calculates *real* taxes paid (in consideration of your argument against WalletHub's methodology) against home value, and puts OK at #29.

Bottom line? We can hurl competing statistics at each other all day and wave implied empiricism at our own sources, but it's not going to get us anywhere except generate mutual hard feelings. Let's agree that neither of us is a paragon on this issue, that we disagree on the generalizations being made, and move on.

And BTW, Oklahoma's crazy low property tax rates also include a limitation on how much the value of a home -- and thus the property tax paid -- can increase per year. That limit is 5%, even if your home's actual appreciation is more than that. There is no downward limit if a house goes down in value.

So, the low rates themselves are based only on an estimated value that is kept artificially low until the house is sold, then the proper market value is reset.

[Pete]

I'm not going to take the time to explain while pulling the median property tax and diving by median home values has absolutely zero bearing on how much *you* and any individual tax payer actually gives the government, which is what we are discussing.

[Bellaboo]

I took a statistics class many years ago. The first statement on the first day from the professors mouth was - 'you can prove or disprove just about anything depending on your slant with statistics'.

[chuck5815]

[onthestrip]

Fact is our property taxes are relatively low. Also fact is that if you live outside of OKC and Tulsa, you are likely to have an assessor who on average undervalues properties. If properties were properly valued across the state, mostly in rural parts, our school funding would look a lot rosier. But now that there is a 5% cap, it will take eons to get it up. And the fact that is that these counties elect good ol buddy assessors who dont want to raise values.

As for eliminating waste, I cant remember the exact numbers but the state has eliminated state employees by the multi-thousands in the last 15 years or so. Theres always waste but we have eliminated a ton of it. We have also just bowed down to our corporate and chamber rulers when it comes to dropping or eliminating some taxes over last decade. The middle and lower class have essentially seen no tax relief during this time, its all gone to higher earners.

[Pete]

Low property taxes also favor big business because commercial property gets taxed at the same rates as homes.

[Ross MacLochness]

lol I was thinking about posting the same gif! Lots of salt on the forums the past few days!!

[SOONER8693]

I took a statistics class many years ago. The first statement on the first day from the professors mouth was - 'you can prove or disprove just about anything depending on your slant with statistics'.

I think it was Mark Twain that said, "statistics are like a cheap whore, once you throw them down there, you can do about anything you want with them".