Toll Every Interstate

[catch22]

We are going to have to move to some sort of mileage and gross weight based tax.

I drive an older sedan, it gets okay gas mileage but weighs nothing. I do zero damage to the roadbed and cause very little wear to the surface. yet because I drive a car with less gas mileage, I pay more in taxes than someone who is fortunate enough to have a nicer car.

[tomokc]

JTF, why do prices > than 4 bucks/gallon tank our economy but not those of other industrialized countries?

I just returned from London where the price for regular unleaded is 1.389 GBP per litre, or roughly $8.25 per gallon. The cars you find in central London are typically very expensive, ranging from Mini Countryman subcompacts to legendary supercars (Lambos, Ferraris, Bentleys and Maybachs). People economize by riding lots of motorcycles, scooters and bicycles - even in the rain - and of course the Metro is packed during rush hours.

The UK economy is doing well, mostly attributed to phase 2 of a "Help to Buy" scheme that has resulted in a terrifying real estate bubble across the country, but especially frightening in London. It probably won't end well, but that's another thread topic, and unrelated to the price of gas or how we'll fund roads in the US. Their gasoline price 2x ours hasn't affected their economy - it has affected the behavior of their citizens.

[venture]

I just returned from London where the price for regular unleaded is 1.389 GBP per litre, or roughly $8.25 per gallon. The cars you find in central London are typically very expensive, ranging from Mini Countryman subcompacts to legendary supercars (Lambos, Ferraris, Bentleys and Maybachs). People economize by riding lots of motorcycles, scooters and bicycles - even in the rain - and of course the Metro is packed during rush hours.

The UK economy is doing well, mostly attributed to phase 2 of a "Help to Buy" scheme that has resulted in a terrifying real estate bubble across the country, but especially frightening in London. It probably won't end well, but that's another thread topic, and unrelated to the price of gas or how we'll fund roads in the US. Their gasoline price 2x ours hasn't affected their economy - it has affected the behavior of their citizens.

So would it be safe to assume, if we go down the road of higher gasoline taxes or a mileage tax, it could inadvertently push demand for quality mass transit higher? That seems to be the take away from what you are saying.

[Just the facts]

So would it be safe to assume, if we go down the road of higher gasoline taxes or a mileage tax, it could inadvertently push demand for quality mass transit higher? That seems to be the take away from what you are saying.

Our big problems is that our cities and towns are not setup for mass transit and they sure aren't setup for walking. Rail works best in a service areas with a density of 20 to 30 units per acre. 90% of OKC is less than 5 units per acre.

[bluedogok]

London also has a "congestion tax" that works similar to the toll roads, 7:00AM to 6:00PM the tax is £9/10/12 a day to drive a vehicle in the congestion zone. Motorcycles, LEV/ULEV vehicles are exempt.

[hoya]

Texas is also much bigger and there are a TON of construction projects going on. ODOT could tackle more projects in OK if they wanted to. Maybe they need to change the way they fund things.

In other words... they need a lot more money. That's what we've been saying.

[Just the facts]

London also has a "congestion tax" that works similar to the toll roads, 7:00AM to 6:00PM the tax is £9/10/12 a day to drive a vehicle in the congestion zone. Motorcycles, LEV/ULEV vehicles are exempt.

Doesn't that just apply to the one square mile of Central London? If I remember correctly the toll system photographs every license plate entering the zone and sends a bill to owner.

[bluedogok]

Everything within the inner ring road including the main financial district and West End. They have an EZ Pass type system, the charge with that is £9, plate recognition is £10 if paid by the end of the day, £12 if paid by the end of the following day. The fine for not paying in that amount of time is £60-187.

[zookeeper]

Our big problems is that our cities and towns are not setup for mass transit and they sure aren't setup for walking. Rail works best in a service areas with a density of 20 to 30 units per acre. 90% of OKC is less than 5 units per acre.

I wish you would "come out" and get yourself an urban blog. You have a lot to offer in this area and I wish you would seriously consider it.

[bluedogok]

I find it funny that Texas gets talked about so much here. Do we really have that much of a complex?

There are TONS, and I mean TONS of really crappy highways in Texas. We by no means are getting it all wrong and they certainly aren't getting it all right. To dismiss a discussion based on a single highway here and there is completely unproductive.

I agree, they also take good roads and make them crap with chip seal. DFW and Houston get the bulk of TxDOT money, the roads there should be better. The rest of the state gets the leftovers.

[Buffalo Bill]

ODOT could tackle more projects in OK if they wanted to. Maybe they need to change the way they fund things.

Like with more money? Or creating more toll roads?

[Just the facts]

I wish you would "come out" and get yourself an urban blog. You have a lot to offer in this area and I wish you would seriously consider it.

Thanks, but everyone has their place and mine right now is 'internet agitator'. On a serious note, I have started the initial work on writing a book but I have a couple of items left on my have-to-finish list before I can devote the amount of time it will require, so don't expect it any time soon.

[Mel]

Just raising the gas tax is not the answer. There are couples struggling with Daddy working 2 jobs and Momma wants to work but the child care is out of reach. There has to be a economic factor to this complex formula.

[RadicalModerate]

For "The 'Hindsight is 20/20' File":

It's a shame that Dwight D. Eisenhower--the same president who, earlier in his career, oversaw D-Day, and exercised personal responsibility, while remaining accountable, in order to play a pivotal role in quashing The Nazi Threat to Humanity, and later warned us about the unintended consequences of The Military Industrial Complex--was so enamored with The Autobahns of Der Fuerher (alt. spelling Future) that he foisted The Interstate Transportation and Defense Highway System upon us.

Dang.

And then there was Reagan wiping out The Soviet Union, former, with nothing but words . . .
Thereby planting the seeds to eliminate and deprive us of our worst foreign enemy . . . and, therefore, the need for ". . . and Defense" (highways)

I guess that "the sins of the fathers" ARE passed along to [The Nth Generations].

(now, cross-click to The New Corvette (and/or Possible Costco/Trader Joes/Etc. Opening) thread and feel better about the whole situation . . . =)

Edited to Add: If Uncle Joe Stalin was still around, he would probably be "demanding" that The Interstates be upgraded to peaceful and idyllic bicycle paths. Perhaps paid for with either a "toll" for the "rich" or a forced labor pogram/program. But he isn't so that will never happen. Because all "money"--nowadaze--is imaginary anywayz =)

[Just the facts]

So get this. Eisenhower's Secretary of Defense at the time was Charles Erwin Wilson. Before become Secretary of Defense Charles held a job. That job was CEO of General Motors. No joking.

During the hearings, when asked if he could make a decision as Secretary of Defense that would be adverse to the interests of General Motors, Wilson answered affirmatively. But he added that he could not conceive of such a situation "because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa".

[bradh]

Tinfoil hat aside, are you saying that the Interstate system should have never been created and is a huge failure?

[Just the facts]

Tinfoil hat aside, are you saying that the Interstate system should have never been created and is a huge failure?

Man would I love to answer that question in depth but for the sake of keeping this thread on topic let me just say I think in the end - yes, it will be a huge failure in a 'it was fun while it lasted' kind of way and the fact that we have an interstate system today is proof enough to me that time travel isn't possible.

[Video Expert]

I find it funny that Texas gets talked about so much here. Do we really have that much of a complex?

There are TONS, and I mean TONS of really crappy highways in Texas. We by no means are getting it all wrong and they certainly aren't getting it all right. To dismiss a discussion based on a single highway here and there is completely unproductive.

I know Texas highways probably better than most anybody on this forum. I don't mean to be contradictory, but I have traveled thousands and thousands (and thousands) of miles of Texas roads in just about every section of the state over the last 30 plus years and I seriously have no idea where these "TONS of really crappy highways" in Texas are located. Granted there are temporary crappy areas where all the road construction is going on, but the finished products are top notch. From Interstates to US Highways to State Highways to many of the FMs...I've driven them all. Bottom line is that Texas has one of the best roads and road systems in the entire US. I've driven FMs that blow away some of the US Highways in other states. It's not really even debatable if you've actually driven the road system to any degree. It's just a fact and has nothing to do with any complex or whatever.

[Just the facts]

Texas might have nice freeways but they paid a heavy price for it that they are just now beginning to come to grips with. Once again we are back to 'everyone says they hate government debt' but then live a lifestyle that requires massive government debt. Why is that?

[venture]

I know Texas highways probably better than most anybody on this forum. I don't mean to be contradictory, but I have traveled thousands and thousands (and thousands) of miles of Texas roads in just about every section of the state over the last 30 plus years and I seriously have no idea where these "TONS of really crappy highways" in Texas are located. Granted there are temporary crappy areas where all the road construction is going on, but the finished products are top notch. From Interstates to US Highways to State Highways to many of the FMs...I've driven them all. Bottom line is that Texas has one of the best roads and road systems in the entire US. I've driven FMs that blow away some of the US Highways in other states. It's not really even debatable if you've actually driven the road system to any degree. It's just a fact and has nothing to do with any complex or whatever.

Many of those FMs are going to start being torn up as well, so they might be nice now...but the party is over.

Texas might have nice freeways but they paid a heavy price for it that they are just now beginning to come to grips with. Once again we are back to 'everyone says they hate government debt' but then live a lifestyle that requires massive government debt. Why is that?

Sometimes I think so called "conservatives" really have no idea the meaning of the word...they just go with it because the TV, newspaper, friends, family, the boogy man tells them to. Imagine if we had an extensive rail network right now. Rising gas prices would be something to laugh at. $300 to go to Chicago one-way? No problem...I'll just pay $150 and take the HSR train.

[Just the facts]

Sometimes I think so called "conservatives" really have no idea the meaning of the word...they just go with it because the TV, newspaper, friends, family, the boogy man tells them to. Imagine if we had an extensive rail network right now. Rising gas prices would be something to laugh at. $300 to go to Chicago one-way? No problem...I'll just pay $150 and take the HSR train.

I know and it is starting to piss me off. The level of intelligence in the country has hit an all time low in my opinion and now it seems even 'smart' people are stupid. Half on America says 2+2 = 5 and the other half says, "No you moron, it's 3." It's like we have lead in our entire national water supply.

It is just this simple:

1) If you don't like government debt - stop living a lifestyle that requires massive government debt (Tea Party people - I am staring right at you)
2) If you don't like military action - stop living a lifestyle that requires global military intervention to keep oil flowing
3) If you don't like global warming - stop living a lifestyle that requires pollution to get you to work
4) If you don't like health issues for being overweight - stop living a lifestyle that requires you to drive everywhere. Live where you can walk or ride a bike.
5) If you don't like corporate farming stop buying houses on land that used to be family farms.
6) If you think we pay enough taxes then live a lifestyle that allows government to function with money it already has
7) If you think government regulates too much then stop living a lifestyle that requires so much darn government regulation

Okay - rant off and now back to how to fix an interstate system we can't afford. I say scrap the whole thing. Don't spend another dime on it and lets use that money to build a sustainable national transportation system, one that doesn't cost more to maintain than it does to build.

[LandRunOkie]

I've started to realize that raising the gas tax by itself isn't politically viable. Every time I've discussed it, posters with mindless names like "Belly-boo" start their mindless rants. If a rail system enhancement and interstate overhaul were to take place, it would have to be done with bond issuance. The easiest way to tax trucks is at the weigh stations. People won't approve a gas tax increase (or any tax increase, in today's low trust, individualistic society) without seeing what's in it for them.

[Just the facts]

LOL - I run into the same issue LandRunOkie. I tell people we need more money to pay for roads and you would think I went over to their house and kicked their puppy. Why can't people understand simple stuff? Fine, if you don't want to pay what it cost, then lets only build what we have money for (but they don't like that option either).

[BoulderSooner]

LOL - I run into the same issue LandRunOkie. I tell people we need more money to pay for roads and you would think I went over to their house and kicked their puppy. Why can't people understand simple stuff? Fine, if you don't want to pay what it cost, then lets only build what we have money for (but they don't like that option either).

hard to tell people we need to raise taxes .. when the federal govt does such a terrible job with the money we give them now

[Bellaboo]

I've started to realize that raising the gas tax by itself isn't politically viable. Every time I've discussed it, posters with mindless names like "Belly-boo" start their mindless rants. If a rail system enhancement and interstate overhaul were to take place, it would have to be done with bond issuance. The easiest way to tax trucks is at the weigh stations. People won't approve a gas tax increase (or any tax increase, in today's low trust, individualistic society) without seeing what's in it for them.

LandRunOkie....... Up Yours ! How about coming to the next get together and introduce yourself pothead ?