DT Public Basketball Court

[MikeOKC]

I think the plan is for the rest of the parking lot is to replace the Thunder season pass parking lost under the Crosstown. That is until the Convention Center is built. Then it all goes away.

Off topic: Kerry, I am fascinated by your passion and your self-education regarding urban development, your belief that it's a lifestyle issue with ramifications for all of society, I've seen you take this issue and run. You really need to do something with it all. Even a blog where you can hash some of this out. You have a lot to say on this issue and I imagine a lot of us (I know I would), would love to read your thoughts on a regular basis. Keep up the good work and think about sharing your thoughts in soapbox fashion with a blog, tumblr or something.

[Bellaboo]

The most famous urban basketball court in the world is Rucker Park in Harlem. It's in a park with trees surrounding it. A former polo grounds is accross the street.

The court can have trees surrounding it and be urban.

[Just the facts]

Thanks for the kind words MikeOKC. Right now OKCTalk is my outlet but as I learn more who knows what the future holds.

Trees are an important part of urbanism and the court in OKC has trees around it is as well. Like Rucker Park (except for the baseball field) there is very little grass.

[Rover]

The whole argument as to whether this is urban or suburban is a little juvenile. What we are talking about is trying to create an urban lifestyle where normal activities of life are in a compact area. If this court were surrounded by an urban neighborhood it would feel more urban. This will never achieve that feel because it will be torn out in a couple of years when the cc is built. It is on a huge vacant car lot, across from a park and next to two arenas. This is not a neighborhood court. To me, if you want the real feel of a neighborhood court you would find one between some of the buildings in deep deuce on some of those small lots. Or on a vacant lot in mid-town down where there is some density. The urban courts I see near my place in New York City, and when I am in LA, Detroit, etc. are almost all neighborhood hangouts. And the fences are as much to keep people out as to keep the ball in. And the ones most think about, the ones in Harlem and DC with all the famous streetball games are generally in the middle of big housing projects (and yes, many with grass and trees up next to it). Many of the inner city courts are defined on one or two sides by buildings and occupy a corner or between a couple of buildings. They come in all shapes and sizes, and most feel organic, not contrived.

So, I could care less if this design is found on Urban for Dummies, page 12. I was looking at the picture in context, and with my poor "eye" it didn't have the gritty urban feel to it. It looks like something that could just as easily been built at Will Rogers Park. But that is okay. It will be a great addition to downtown, and on occasions provide some great life to downtown. It is a step in the right direction, for sure. I applaud it. I just don't look at it and start drooling about how urban it looks. Maybe after it gets some graffiti painted on it and is scuffed up a little, it will look like what I am used to seeing. Maybe when it becomes the neighborhood hangout and the 3 guys from midtown create a Tuesday night rivalry with the guys from dduece. Or Level urban challenges 1212. And maybe the young boys hang out at night to catch the neighborhood legend take the frat boy from Devon to school.

[Larry OKC]

I would add to FTF's list, that at least 50% of any surface area MUST be covered in graffiti to qualify as "urban"

[Just the facts]

I would add to FTF's list, that at least 50% of any surface area MUST be covered in graffiti to qualify as "urban"

That's the criteria for the ghetto list - not the urban list.

[BDP]

I would add to FTF's list, that at least 50% of any surface area MUST be covered in graffiti to qualify as "urban"

Haha. Where do get this?

I think you have been watching too many 80s breakdancing movies. lol!

[Larry OKC]

Was making a joke, but recall folks talking about graffiti being part of what makes an area urban a while back on one of the threads. There was some business where it had happened and remember the media campaign of plastering those stickers everywhere (I realize that isn't graffiti but still destruction/defacing of others property). The defense offered? "That is just part of being an Urban, Big League City. Get used to it." Also, what areas would BDP & JTF use of examples of being "urban" without the seemingly pre-requisite that they be graffiti covered (ghetto or not)?? I certainly have seen it myself in places that often get cited as being on the usual lists of cities folks here want OKC to emulate.

[BDP]

Also, what areas would BDP & JTF use of examples of being "urban" without the seemingly pre-requisite that they be graffiti covered (ghetto or not)??

and even:



Seriously, there are more examples of urban districts not dominated by graffiti than there are of "graffiti covered" districts. I could fill this thread with pictures, but i haven't found any with basketball courts yet and I can feel Metro lurking and ready to copy and paste his "back on topic!" post into this thread.

[Just the facts]

All I know is graffiti is not part of the new urbanism. In fact, one the objectives of new urbanism is to increase eyes on the street to prevent that type of activity. I remember several OKCTalkers who defended graffiti on certain building and freeway infrastructure - my response was that I want those paint happy bas***** hung up by their buster browns (a little Jaws reference). Graffiti is a crime and is counterproductive to re-urbanizing a city.

[Rover]

There is an academic, naive and sterile view of urbanism and a reality based one. In reality, high density and diversity brings bad with good. We get a planners view of what is going to happen that generally doesn't include reality. Urbanism has its costs, just like the development of suburbs has had. Some people believe communism is a great ideal, only to find the lack of privacy, security, personal control, etc. is not worth the unachievable ideals. We want urbanistic concepts to develop in OKC, but let's be realistic. It can be a great lifestyle, but not a perfect one. Graffiti is just one of the battles. That's why a real sense of neighborhood has to exist to police this and other abhorrent behavior. If this bb court is an outpost and there is no sense of neighborhood ownership, it will indeed become graffiti and trash infested unless a lot of city assets are used to police it. If it is surrounded and used by neighbors with a stake it its cleanliness and safety it wouldn't be such a concern.

[Larry OKC]

JTF & Rover: I think we are on the same side. Unfortunately one of the problems with graffiti and other things of the sort is no matter how much those in the neighborhood hate it unless they have the resources to fix it every time it happens (or somehow prevent it in the first place), it is going to happen. As a side note, this was one thing that impressed me about Disney when I lived in Florida. They cleaned the park nightly and if graffit etc was found it was fixed that night! I cant imagine the vast majority of those that live in heavily tagged areas actually want it there (but maybe they do). It only cost a couple of bucks to but a can of spray paint (or nothing if you steal it) but it can be very costly to remove it especially to the point where it doesn't just look covered up. Always makes my blood pressure rise whenever I see it. Especially on new/renovated properties where it is obvious that someone does care to make it look nice and make improvements on their property. Or in the case of public projects where the new I-40 was tagged in several places before it had even opened to traffic. The roaches of our society used to wait until the cover of darkness but it seems their is more impunity on some folks part, doing it in broad daylight etc.

[Just the facts]

Which leads us to modern urban spraw resulting in the concentration of people who perform this type of activity.

[Larry OKC]

BDP: do you mean to tell me if you were to take a closer look at those buildings (and esp on the sides that aren't the most public of views), that graffiti doesn't exist?

[Larry OKC]

Which leads us to modern urban spraw resulting in the concentration of people who perform this type of activity.

You lost me on that one...are you saying that if we didn't have sprawl we wouldn't have graffiti???

[Just the facts]

You lost me on that one...are you saying that if we didn't have sprawl we wouldn't have graffiti???

For the most part yes. There is no graffiti in my suburban subdivison. If everyone in my subdivision lived in a tradional neighborhood do you think we would start doing it?

[Larry OKC]

Sorry, still lost...from what you are saying, the sprawl has eliminated the graffiti where you live, that is a good thing. Right? I don't think that if you moved back to the urban core that you would start doing it. But you being there or not doesn't seem to have any effect on those that do it in the urban area. Right???

[Just the facts]

Sorry, still lost...from what you are saying, the sprawl has eliminated the graffiti where you live, that is a good thing. Right? I don't think that if you moved back to the urban core that you would start doing it. But you being there or not doesn't seem to have any effect on those that do it in the urban area. Right???

Sprawl didn't stop graffiti in my area because before sprawl happened no one lived in my area. If someone was spray painting trees out in the woods no one knew about it. Paint has existed for over 4,000 years so why has graffiti only be around for 40 years and occurs mostly in poor areas?

To get this back on topic - Rover is correct that if there are not eyes on this court it could become a gathering place for the criminal element (although the criminal element doesn't live nearby either).

If you really want read up on it check out chapter 3 and 4 of Suburban Nation. It is now available at your local Barnes and Nobel.

[Larry OKC]

Ok I think I got you now,... so sprawl really doesn't have any effect on graffiti. It didn't exist in those places before the sprawl happened but still exists in those places where it was before/after the sprawl. When did spray can paint come about? That seems to be the medium of choice 9rather than a gallon bucket & brush). The advent and accessibility of the spray can seems to be when graffiti became the rage, although one could argue that caveman "art" and even pioneer defacing of rocks etc long before....

ON EDIT:

Spray Paint in a Can

In 1949, canned spray paint was invented by Edward Seymour, the first paint color was aluminum. Edward Seymour's wife Bonnie suggested the use of an aerosol can filled with paint. Edward Seymour founded Seymour of Sycamore, Inc. of Chicago, USA, to manufacture his spray paints.

[BDP]

BDP: do you mean to tell me if you were to take a closer look at those buildings (and esp on the sides that aren't the most public of views), that graffiti doesn't exist?

Not 100% at any given time, but it's not dominating or prevalent, and it does get cleaned up, so much of it is short lived. I did pick some typically clean neighborhoods in cities that are not always known as clean, especially by people who have not visited them in quite some time, mainly as an example of how graffiti is in no way an inherent or defining factor of urban neighborhoods. I can say that at any given moment, there is often more graffiti in some of our suburban districts than there is in the examples I provided.

And as evident by the fact that the well manicured lawn or well kept house is hardly an inherent part of suburban living, there are people that care about their neighborhoods as a community and people who don't in every part of every city. I do know that my personal urban living experiences have anecdotally shown me that, often, there is a much greater sense of community in tighter knit, mixed use urban communities (especially amongst the businesses) than any of the suburban neighborhoods I have lived in. I think that is just a product of the fact that in urban areas you interact with your neighborhood more than you do in a suburban neighborhood where you spend a lot of time just driving through it or away from it.

In any event, there are tons of urban neighborhoods where you would have to try very hard to find graffiti and be actively looking for it around corners or get "lucky" one day to see it conspicuously on display. Of course, the aesthetic upkeep of a neighborhood can change quickly when its occupants change, but that happens everywhere and is not exclusive to urban enclaves.

[mcca7596]

http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-.../1656886913001

[Eddie1]

What great move on the city's part...simple, inexpensive, urban.

[betts]

The Cage - Another Way Downtown OKC is Becoming an Incredibly Cool Place | NewsOK.com

This is cool. I noticed Steve tweeting about The Cage last night but didn't know what he was talking about until I saw this article. I'd noticed a lot of activity there when going to the Sunday night concerts in the park and will need to check this out next Sunday.