Why no retail in Bricktown?

[Steve]

Never said that Spartan. But too often I see analysis that seem to be rooted in idealism and planning theory - all well and good - but don't take into account real life economics and difficulties in obtaining financing.
Here are things to consider about downtown housing, especially in Bricktown:
- New fha rules making condo financing very difficult
- Lack of comps
- Code issues involving conversion older buildings (for example, the Mercantile building needs a $150,000 fire stairway for the top three floors to convert into housing. This is a big added cost that the owner is struggling to address to get his project started).
- Parking (you say it's not an issue - and it might not be - but bankers think it is)
- Design review (feasibility may demand more windows in a wall that doesn't have any. but will design review say "yes"?)
- Fewer buyers

[Spartan]

So Steve, do you think parking is a problem or not? I remember you setting me straight last year when I was arguing that the perception of the problem matters a lot more than the reality, and I've read your recent columns in which you attributed Jim Cowan with repairing that perception recently. I guess the question is, which is it? If bankers think there is a parking problem and that is one of a few contributing factors that making real estate projects in Bricktown difficult..well, then it definitely is a problem.

Also the entirety of financial feasibility seems predicated on CONDOS. "Fewer buyers," "lack of comps," "FHA rules," and other things seem to make apartments more attractive, and indeed, a lot of Tulsa's new downtown development that's getting off the ground right now does seem to capitalize on that rental market that swells during recessions like this. Because Oklahoma's economy is still functioning unlike other places and unemployment is still relatively low, you're not going to see Okies give up on the dream of downtown living just yet until the economy totally goes off a cliff. It just makes renting a more attractive temporary solution, and in my opinion, it should be a permanent solution for Bricktown.

And all along I've suggested that the city needs to try and make happen some way to assist financing. It's not me saying this, it was the 2003 Downtown Strategic Action Plan that also advocated this on several different pages of the 50+ page plus report. Tulsa has their Vision 2025 Downtown Housing fund (Vision was their response to MAPS) which issued loans in two phases to downtown developers which get paid back and then put back into the revolving fund and once its whole again will do another round of lending likely after 2015). Obviously the city budget is tight, but it wasn't in 2003. There are other ways that the city can make this happen, too.

Also for downtown housing....what about student housing? The Strategic Action Plan implored the city to enter discussions with OU to put student housing for the medical center in Bricktown. That obviously never happened despite its huge potential. Same now goes for UCO, OCU, OBU, and all the other schools that are beginning to get involved downtown.

None of us are saying Mr. Bricktown needs to add housing to his district. What are we, two years old? Nobody here is so retarded that we think Bricktown is a person and we want to convince Bricktown to change his mind and go ahead and develop some housing (sorry ljbab). We realize that developers, and several different developers at that all with competing interests, put that in motion. BUT developers aren't getting the job done so obviously City Hall, if Bricktown housing is a priority, needs to reevaluate the strategy on how to get that...and might actually want to read a few of the studies on downtown planning that came out during the last decade and were obviously ignored.

[Kerry]

Why wasn't there any housing being built inside Bricktown limits when money was easy to get. A lot of housing was built around downtown but not in Bricktown proper.

[okclee]

How is Deep Deuce apartments doing during these tough economic times? Are people still renting in this area? What is the occupancy rate?

[Bazooka Joe]

Are you really comparing the Strip to Bricktown?

whats wrong with comparing Vegas to it?

besides, what happens in Bricktown stays in Bricktown.

[Steve]

RE: Sanity and logic comment. ^^^^^^

Spartan, what you bring up in regard to OKC matching Tulsa's Vision 2025 funding is an intriguing discussion, and I'm not dismissing it. But I think you're getting to the heart of it all when it comes to reality, perception, ability, etc.
From everything I've seen on the busiest nights in Bricktown, there is no "problem" finding affordable, accessible parking. But that's a different issue from whether bankers see housing being viable without attached, secured parking for the homebuyers. It's apples and oranges.
I'm not justifying this. Just saying it's an issue.

[metro]

i think it's because lack of parking in Bricktown............i kid i kid

[kevinpate]

... besides, what happens in Bricktown stays in Bricktown.

And cell phones, and FLIPS, and YouTube and Flickr and Facebook anbd Myspace and ......

[ljbab728]

None of us are saying Mr. Bricktown needs to add housing to his district. What are we, two years old? Nobody here is so retarded that we think Bricktown is a person and we want to convince Bricktown to change his mind and go ahead and develop some housing (sorry ljbab). We realize that developers, and several different developers at that all with competing interests, put that in motion. BUT developers aren't getting the job done so obviously City Hall, if Bricktown housing is a priority, needs to reevaluate the strategy on how to get that...and might actually want to read a few of the studies on downtown planning that came out during the last decade and were obviously ignored.

Spartan, you don't have to apologize to me. Of course I understood the meaning of what was being said. I was just trying to emphasize that the ease of adding housing was being over simplified by emplying that "Bricktown" should do it instead of mentioning that real people with real issues to solve would be involved.

[king183]

I went to the Red Dirt Emporium today. It was empty, but that's to be expected because they just opened yesterday and they're still completing the store space and moving vendors in. I was mostly impressed with what I saw, and I think it has great potential to be successful. I bought some pepper jelly from a lady I read about in the paper. She gave me a sample, which convinced me to buy.

Chad was there doing some work. My only real concern is regarding the vendors. I think for this type of marketplace to be successful, the right type of vendors need to occupy the booths. That seems like a no-brainer, but I saw a couple booths that appear to be occupied by furniture vendors who were selling very large pieces of wooden furniture and thus had maybe three pieces of furniture in it. It seemed out of place amongst the vendors who were selling custom shirts, art, jewelry, pottery, food items, and other Oklahoma items. I don't think anyone really goes to a place like Red Dirt Emporium for their furniture needs, so it seems likely those booths will be "dead" space. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

You all should go check it out when you get the chance. It's definitely a plus for the canal level area.

[OKCMallen]

whats wrong with comparing Vegas to it?

You're comparing America's adult playground, an internationally known city that has been growing for decades based on gambling and excellent marketing, a city that has no closing or opening time, a city where they have more money for more private development than we can possibly fathom, with planeloads more coming in every weekend from every city in the United States and - no exaggeration- the globe, where pyramids and Eiffel Towers and Coliseums stretch into the sky and where excess, consumerism, and the general spending of money is like breathing...

...to Bricktown.


I'm thinking it's not an apt comparison.

[Spartan]

RE: Sanity and logic comment. ^^^^^^

Spartan, what you bring up in regard to OKC matching Tulsa's Vision 2025 funding is an intriguing discussion, and I'm not dismissing it. But I think you're getting to the heart of it all when it comes to reality, perception, ability, etc.
From everything I've seen on the busiest nights in Bricktown, there is no "problem" finding affordable, accessible parking. But that's a different issue from whether bankers see housing being viable without attached, secured parking for the homebuyers. It's apples and oranges.
I'm not justifying this. Just saying it's an issue.

So what do you think about this for a story idea, asking developers what IS the solution to the housing problem? (Not just to identify what is causing it) I imagine that the solution isn't just going to come by looking at the root causes, but rather by looking outside the box..

[Steve]

I've pretty much explored that option - developers are reluctant to go on the record and admit they're in trouble or say things can't go forward with "x" or "y" - but your ideas are noted.

[betts]

So what do you think about this for a story idea, asking developers what IS the solution to the housing problem? (Not just to identify what is causing it) I imagine that the solution isn't just going to come by looking at the root causes, but rather by looking outside the box..

If they think they can make money, i.e. sell or rent housing at a price that will guarantee them a profit, developers would be on board I would assume. I suspect they either think there's no demand, or the demand is for housing they cannot afford to create. If there's money to be made, and it's a sure thing, you'll find developers. So, somehow they have to be shown there's demand, at price points that make development worthwhile.

[flintysooner]

Thought this was an interesting article and project:

Dallas Mixed Use Project Defies Market Trends and Hits 100% Leased Mark

SHELBY - Exclusive Apartment Living

[Spartan]

I've pretty much explored that option - developers are reluctant to go on the record and admit they're in trouble or say things can't go forward with "x" or "y" - but your ideas are noted.

Right, Steve. Definitely wasn't suggesting something you haven't thought about, and I understand the difficulty in getting developers to talk or admit things aren't going forward. It's so ironic sometimes how badly we need to make these people be successful for our downtown to thrive..ugh.

I've been trying to get some developers to go on the record for my blog and haven't had any luck..not surprising that developers may or may not be supportive of the controversial posts but don't want to appear associated or supportive in any way. Nobody wants to get Bob Funked if they upset the wrong person at City Hall by being associated with voices for change..

[Steve]

Ah, welcome to my world....

[Urbanized]

I went to the Red Dirt Emporium today. It was empty, but that's to be expected because they just opened yesterday and they're still completing the store space and moving vendors in. I was mostly impressed with what I saw, and I think it has great potential to be successful. I bought some pepper jelly from a lady I read about in the paper. She gave me a sample, which convinced me to buy.

Chad was there doing some work. My only real concern is regarding the vendors. I think for this type of marketplace to be successful, the right type of vendors need to occupy the booths. That seems like a no-brainer, but I saw a couple booths that appear to be occupied by furniture vendors who were selling very large pieces of wooden furniture and thus had maybe three pieces of furniture in it. It seemed out of place amongst the vendors who were selling custom shirts, art, jewelry, pottery, food items, and other Oklahoma items. I don't think anyone really goes to a place like Red Dirt Emporium for their furniture needs, so it seems likely those booths will be "dead" space. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

You all should go check it out when you get the chance. It's definitely a plus for the canal level area.

Thanks for the good feedback! You should have said hello.

Regarding the furniture, it is from Treasures Past, the fantastic antique store that opened some months ago in Midtown. Jon and Laura, the owners, have been great through this process and their store a wonderful addition to the marketplace. They also brought in Brian Nault of Nault Fine Art Gallery (also located in Midtown), who is in the process of installing museum-quality African artifacts (masks, arrows and other items). Many of the booths are taking on the quality of art galleries, which is a fascinating and somewhat unexpected turn that we are keenly interested in.

What you saw in Treasures Past's booth was very unfinished. They have since moved in a considerable amount of smaller decor items, though the booths are still works in progress, like most in the marketplace.

Interestingly enough, the first thing(s) to sell out of their particular booths were two large furniture pieces, one to a local person and one to a lady visiting from Louisiana. Jon is arranging shipment on that piece. We were interested in whether large pieces could or would sell, and actually believed that the large pieces might possibly serve more as set dressing than anything, but have been pleasantly surprised by all of the activity specifically on large antiques. In fact, a large percentage of our overall sales has been due to furniture purchases. This no doubt would surprise you more than me, but it was still somewhat unexpected for us.

I will try to get some photos posted soon of the amazing centuries' old handcarved stuff from Scotland that he has in there. What is perhaps most amazing is the (low) prices he has on the items. On one piece in particular, people are consistently shocked at how little he is asking for it.

The real pleasure here has been watching the local merchants who have rented these spaces turn them into their own. Each one is developing character that has nothing to do with what I would necessarily put there, which is a good thing I think. I don't mind helping them decide at the front end whether or not their particular products may or may not be a good fit for Bricktown's customers, but after that it has been exciting to see them put their own creativity to work.

[Steve]

I'm still wowed by the pepper jam. I never, never, ever, ever would have thought about trying such a thing - now I'm the proud owner of a jar full of it and will buy more when it's done. Suan's trick is to get you to try it - and then a sale is almost inevitable.

[Urbanized]

She has sold more than 10 cases in the past three days.

[SkyWestOKC]

I might drop by with my girlfriend sometime this week. Interested to see it.

[Spartan]

She has sold more than 10 cases in the past three days.

Does that cover rent for the space?

[Urbanized]

Well, I'm not sure what her cost is, but yeah, her retail take covers the rent for the space. By a bunch. When you factor in that her daughter is selling beautiful pottery from the same space, and the ten cases of jelly was after only three days of business, I think the both of them are doing pretty well at this point.

[redrunner]

All this talk about pepper jam/jelly makes me wanna try it. I've seen jalapeno jelly at the grocery store before. Is it the same thing? What do you put pepper jelly on?

[Steve]

redrunner, I wish I could describe it. I don't like jalapeno - and I certainly never would have liked a jam with peppers in it. And yet ... this stuff is addictive.
Suan makes this stuff from scratch from her own recipe.