Automobile Alley

[onthestrip]

Kerry, I think your multiple property owners/managers theory isnt exactly what is holding things up. Granted it would help having one leasing group to go through but thats assuming we could attract the Gap, Jos A Banks, or Ann Taylor types...which isnt happening right now. We will see more retail eventually, just going to take several hundred more living units. It also has to happen organically. It will be up to local and independent retailers to locate there and build a strong retail base. Then you might see national retailers take notice and start to look at Auto Alley. Its going to be a slow process but I do see AA eventually being the retail hot spot for downtown. I mean, where else would it be? I cant think of a better spot than AA.

[betts]

I don't even particularly care about national retail on AA. What's wrong with local shops? I go to Western to shop, not to Belle Isle, because I like the smaller locally owned shops. A lot of other people do too. When I go to a city to visit, I want to shop in unique stores and for unique items. If I want to shop at Ann Taylor, I go to the mall and I go here, not in Chicago. I've lived here long enough to see Western evolve, and I think AA will too, but hopefully the way Western, 9th St. and Midtown have.

[SkyWestOKC]

I think the streetcar will significantly improve the idea of shops opening in Auto Alley. It's an urban corridor, and if you add easy options to bring people in without using a car. You will have a much better shot selling these spaces to retailers and restaurants.

[onthestrip]

I don't even particularly care about national retail on AA. What's wrong with local shops? I go to Western to shop, not to Belle Isle, because I like the smaller locally owned shops. A lot of other people do too. When I go to a city to visit, I want to shop in unique stores and for unique items. If I want to shop at Ann Taylor, I go to the mall and I go here, not in Chicago. I've lived here long enough to see Western evolve, and I think AA will too, but hopefully the way Western, 9th St. and Midtown have.

Nothing is wrong with local shops but the fact of the matter is that you wont have a strong and vibrant retail area with only local shops. You have to have some national, recognizable retailers in there. But if AA can create a strong local retail base then you might attract some nationals and then you will create a good retail street.
Also, Im not comparing AA to a Belle Isle. Ideally AA would get Penn Square type stores.

[Kerry]

This is where all the national retail decisions are made. A street with 20 different property owners doesn't have a chance.

http://www.icsc.org/2011SC/

Go to the Exhibitor list and ask yourself how AA is ever going to reach that group.

[betts]

Nothing is wrong with local shops but the fact of the matter is that you wont have a strong and vibrant retail area with only local shops. You have to have some national, recognizable retailers in there. But if AA can create a strong local retail base then you might attract some nationals and then you will create a good retail street.
Also, Im not comparing AA to a Belle Isle. Ideally AA would get Penn Square type stores.

Seriously? What I think is that if we want Penn Square type stores, we need a developer to build an outdoor mall in or near downtown. Places that would work would include the Cotton Gin area, the steelyard east of Bricktown or perhaps in or west of Core to Shore. It has to happen from scratch, because we don't have the space anywhere on AA. The Bob Howard site would have been a wonderful place to locate a few anchor retail stores, if such stores even have any interest in downtown OKC. Now, if you want national retailers in a place like AA, you could try to attract an Urban Outfitters, an American Apparel. The closest think I can think of to AA is someplace like Bucktown in Chicago. They have a few national retailers, Free People (a store in the Anthro/Urban group), Cynthia Rowley, Joe's Jeans, Intermix, Ralph Lauren. But, mostly they have unique stores that are not national chains or the type of chains you see in every mall. It would be amazing if we could develop retail like that in the area, but we're not getting Neiman Marcus, Barneys, Saks or Bergdorfs. We're not even getting Nordstrom, Dillards, Coach or Banana Republic, and personally I don't want them. People will travel for unique. They won't travel for the same things they can get at the mall, nor should we want the mall stores in that location, IMO.

[okclee]

The vacant parcels of land along Broadway between 11th and 16th on the east side could be good for the new retail / mixed use developments. Heritage Hills / Mesta Park to the west, possible streetcar access at 13th and Broadway, good highway visibility, reaches midtown-cbd-deep deuce areas, etc.

I don't guess the Dolese family wants to become developers? They are the owners of the large land parcels between 13th - 16th.

[Kerry]

They won't travel for the same things they can get at the mall...

People travel to the mall all the time.

[onthestrip]

This is where all the national retail decisions are made. A street with 20 different property owners doesn't have a chance.

http://www.icsc.org/2011SC/

Go to the Exhibitor list and ask yourself how AA is ever going to reach that group.

It takes going to Vegas and talking to these guys. Ive been to ICSC, anyone can talk to these reps and if you have a desirable spot, even if its just one building, they will listen. Ever shopped on M St. in Georgetown? Do you think each side of the street for several blocks is owned by the same person? Obviously not, over time it slowly grew as a retail hotspot along a street similar to Broadway. As I said, first we have to build up a strong local independent retail base on AA before any of this will happen.

Seriously? What I think is that if we want Penn Square type stores, we need a developer to build an outdoor mall in or near downtown. Places that would work would include the Cotton Gin area, the steelyard east of Bricktown or perhaps in or west of Core to Shore. It has to happen from scratch, because we don't have the space anywhere on AA. The Bob Howard site would have been a wonderful place to locate a few anchor retail stores, if such stores even have any interest in downtown OKC. Now, if you want national retailers in a place like AA, you could try to attract an Urban Outfitters, an American Apparel. The closest think I can think of to AA is someplace like Bucktown in Chicago. They have a few national retailers, Free People (a store in the Anthro/Urban group), Cynthia Rowley, Joe's Jeans, Intermix, Ralph Lauren. But, mostly they have unique stores that are not national chains or the type of chains you see in every mall. It would be amazing if we could develop retail like that in the area, but we're not getting Neiman Marcus, Barneys, Saks or Bergdorfs. We're not even getting Nordstrom, Dillards, Coach or Banana Republic, and personally I don't want them. People will travel for unique. They won't travel for the same things they can get at the mall, nor should we want the mall stores in that location, IMO.

First, I know we wont get a department store in AA. Secondly, there is plenty of space along AA for non department store retail. Third, yes, we do need Penn Square type stores. It doesnt have to be ones already located in Penn Square but AA will need some mall-type stores if its wants to be a viable retail street. Local, unique stores will only go so far but they will be needed early on to create the retail atmosphere and prove to other retailers that AA is a strong retail area. Then AA will attract attention from nationals, which will be essential to AA actually growing into a cool retail street. Also, there are only so many unique shops, its unrealistic to expect that everything on AA be the only location of its kind in OKC. Thats why we also need more residents DT before AA develops. In summary, local and unique is needed but it wont finish the job.

Like I mentioned above, think M St in Georgetown. Its going to have to happen this way because we are not seeing a large shopping center being built downtown anytime soon.

[Kerry]

Like I said onthestrip, if you want to wait 25 years until there are 15,000 living within blocks of Autmobile Alley then by all means wait. You won't see local retail until then.

I checked out M Street - and low and behold, the catalyst was a large retail development owned by one company.
http://www.shopsatgeorgetownpark.com/stores.aspx

I found this interesting about The Shops at Georgetown Park.

http://www.washingtonflyer.com/depar...eorgetown-park

Out of the 50-plus stores in the mall, the majority of them—such as the three the Angels own—are local D.C. retailers amid the larger chain stores on bustling M Street and off of Wisconsin Avenue.

While there are locally owned shops along the street, here is a list of national brands:

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/53a3f/b975c/c/

Banana Republic (3200 M Street)
Coach (3259 M Street)
Diesel (1249 Wisconsin Avenue)
French Connection (1229 Wisconsin Avenue)
Gap (1258 Wisconsin Avenue)
JCrew (3222 M Street)
Kenneth Cole (1259 Wisconsin Avenue)
Ralph Lauren (1249 Wisconsin Avenue)
Steve Madden (3109 M Street)
Urban Outfitters (3111 M Street)
Club Monaco (3235 M Street)
Sephora (3065 M Street)
Pottery Barn (3077 M Street)
BCBG (3210 M Street)
Zara (1234 Wisconsin Avenue)
Barnes and Noble (3040 M Street)
Anthropolgie (3222 M Street)
Artefacto (3333 M Street)
Barney's (3040 M Street)
Blue Mercury (3059 M Street)
MAC (3067 M Street)
Kate Spade (3061 M Street)
Lacoste (3146 M Street)
Christian Bernard (3222 M Street)
Mexx (3229 M Street)
Godiva Chocolatier (3222 M Street)
Niccolo (3222 M Street)
Lush (3066 M Street)

The City has to find a way to unify ownership so a retail center can be established. Any plan that doesn't do that is wasting our time and resources. We had a chance to do this with lower Bricktown but the City fumbled (which is what you would expect to happen the first time you get the ball in a big game).

[betts]

I disagree. Again, if someone wants to build an outdoor mall downtown, we can unify ownership there. But, a really cool street develops organically, just like housing in older cities. The street goes through a down in the mouth phase (done that), followed by a funky phase (sort of doing that). As the whole area becomes "cool" again, nicer retailers slowly move in and once you've got a few, the whole thing mushrooms. And it hopefully mushrooms primarily with cool local boutiques. Again, the last store I'm going to walk in when I'm visting a city is a GAP, followed closely by every store my mall has. Out of the ones listed above, I'd go to Kate Spade, Lacoste, Kenneth Cole, Mexx and French Connection. The other ones are....yawn....

[Rover]

One Colorado is not a suburban style 'life style' center. It does have interior walk ways but those are just the old alleys that were turned into pedestrian walkways. There are no surface parking spaces, the buildings are pushed out to the sidewalk, and the buildings create positive interior space. It doesn't get much more 'urban' than that. Height has nothing to do with urban.

Sorry, this is pretty much what I remember of One Colorado...a pretty suburban style mall with a big plaza next to a 4 story condo building. It is near the street though. It looks pretty much like a lot of malls in California.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hercwad...5177/lightbox/

[Kerry]

That isn't One Colorado but it is real close (across the street and on the next block). This is Paseo Colorado. I took a look at the tenant list and it is almost all national chains. This just further proves my point. All these shopping districts that people think are cool and unique are developed by one or two larger developers with national chains. Any local retail is attracted by the foot traffic generated by the national chains.

This seems to be how the model works. OKC just needs to find a way to consolidate property ownership. Maybe Core 2 Shore will do that. I’ll have to look at land ownership along the new boulevard. I really hope the Ford site is not selected for the new CC because it is big enough to house One Colorado AND Paseo California.

http://www.paseocoloradopasadena.com/

http://www.onecolorado.com/main.php

[Rover]

I will say there is a plethora of good restaurants in the area there, from local to national. Actually not a big stretch to think of AA to mid-town being like the old Pasadena area.

[bombermwc]

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

You know what I think is a good comparison? Chicago's north side north of the pier. It's an old area that has turned to a hip urban area for more than just upscale stiff shirts. The area has a mix of some chain places like Walgreens or whatever, but it's also HUGELY pedestrian because of when/how it was built (turn of century). The entire area is mixed use from the ground up...and guess what. It's not only retail on the ground floor...people actually use the upper floors (what a concept). So the chains you find there, ARE NOT predominently retailers, they are service oriented like Walgreens. Pharmacy, grocery, etc. You'll find things like the Blue Man Group's theater, lots of restaurants, and people EVERYWHERE. It's a fully developed environment that didn't require only upscale consumers exist there. It's classic urban living without a tower. That area is a great example of what CAN be in an area. Of course Chicago has a density and history that allowed that to develop...but it also saw a revitilization of the area so it didn't turn to crap like downtown OKC did.

[J. Pitman]

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

You know what I think is a good comparison? Chicago's north side north of the pier. It's an old area that has turned to a hip urban area for more than just upscale stiff shirts. The area has a mix of some chain places like Walgreens or whatever, but it's also HUGELY pedestrian because of when/how it was built (turn of century). The entire area is mixed use from the ground up...and guess what. It's not only retail on the ground floor...people actually use the upper floors (what a concept). So the chains you find there, ARE NOT predominently retailers, they are service oriented like Walgreens. Pharmacy, grocery, etc. You'll find things like the Blue Man Group's theater, lots of restaurants, and people EVERYWHERE. It's a fully developed environment that didn't require only upscale consumers exist there. It's classic urban living without a tower. That area is a great example of what CAN be in an area. Of course Chicago has a density and history that allowed that to develop...but it also saw a revitilization of the area so it didn't turn to crap like downtown OKC did.

Man, you're always such a downer.

[Kerry]

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

We aren't talking about a mall in the traditional sense. We are talking about the mall concept, but removing the roof and placing the stores on the street. Also, no 20 acre parking lots.

[Spartan]

Bomber, you have to understand the concept of sustainability better. It's an academic tool that can help people plan for something to last longer and not meet the same limited fate of other real estate ventures from the last half century. It's not as easy as being opposed to everything new and being cranky to concepts old and new alike.

Tell us what you're for. I would also encourage you to learn more about concepts such as sustainability that can help make a real estate venture actually last longer than 30 years prime. That's what Oklahoma needs more of. We can make things work for the long haul, we can build a great city, we just have to embrace a different development philosophy than the broken ones from the past.

[Rover]

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

You know what I think is a good comparison? Chicago's north side north of the pier. It's an old area that has turned to a hip urban area for more than just upscale stiff shirts. The area has a mix of some chain places like Walgreens or whatever, but it's also HUGELY pedestrian because of when/how it was built (turn of century). The entire area is mixed use from the ground up...and guess what. It's not only retail on the ground floor...people actually use the upper floors (what a concept). So the chains you find there, ARE NOT predominently retailers, they are service oriented like Walgreens. Pharmacy, grocery, etc. You'll find things like the Blue Man Group's theater, lots of restaurants, and people EVERYWHERE. It's a fully developed environment that didn't require only upscale consumers exist there. It's classic urban living without a tower. That area is a great example of what CAN be in an area. Of course Chicago has a density and history that allowed that to develop...but it also saw a revitilization of the area so it didn't turn to crap like downtown OKC did.

Are you talking about the area around the university? Otherwise, north along the shore is mondo expensive. Further west is mixed. And, Michigan Ave. provides all the upscale shopping. Scale and circumstances are totally different. The younger and more cost concious are around the old Donnely area and West of downtown. But the dynamics of having 5 million people in the immediate neighborhoods is a little different than here to. Chicago just has lots more of everything.

[bombermwc]

Spartan - what so we should just push for everything to involve national chains rather than having a local flavor because they MIGHT have more staying power? Sorry, I don't buy it. You guys keep wanting examples, and I keep giving them. Check out 5th St. in Austin. How many big box stores are in there? For that matter, freaking Campus Corner...hello! And don't give me any crap about population density. AA is in the CBD and once the trolly is in, it will be even easier to get around. Plus, you can WALK from one end of downtown to the other in less than 15 minutes....i've done it several times....actually even from the Santa Fe garage over to the art musem. Why? For the hell of it to see how long it would take in the middle of the day on a weekday.

And don't preach to us whle you're still in school bud. Whatever definition you're learning this week doesn't give you the experience to "teach" everyone on your opinions. You aren't even old enough yourself to be considered a "sustainable" project yet.

Rover - no I'm not talking about near Michigan Ave or the university. Think Clark and Belmont...near the Belmont Harbor. But really, that's just a slice of that entire side of town. They have a much higher density and have had another 100 years of people living there than us, but the point is still there. That area could have easily blighted itself out of existence like much of St. Louis.

[Kerry]

You aren't even old enough yourself to be considered a "sustainable" project yet.

Let me just say this about that comment; that was pretty funny. With your permission Bomber I would like to use that in the future on some people I work with.

Okay - now back to the debate.

Campus Corner - how much retail is on Campus Corner? When I went to OU the only retail was Harolds and I think it is closed now.

on edit - it seems Campus Corner has done pretty good on the retail side. I guess having a University across the street with 25,000 students and 3,000 employees will help retail.

5th St - How much retail is on 5th Street? I have never been there but I thought it was mostly bars, clubs, and restaurants.

[ouguy23]

Let me just say this about that comment; that was pretty funny. With your permission Bomber I would like to use that in the future on some people I work with.

Okay - now back to the debate.

Campus Corner - how much retail is on Campus Corner? When I went to OU the only retail was Harolds and I think it is closed now.

on edit - it seems Campus Corner has done pretty good on the retail side. I guess having a University across the street with 25,000 students and 3,000 employees will help retail.

5th St - How much retail is on 5th Street? I have never been there but I thought it was mostly bars, clubs, and restaurants.

Yes, Campus Corner is prob. around 90% leased up. It has a healthy mix of clothing stores, bars, restaurants, flower shop, nice computer store, etc. It's has made a huge turnaround from before.

[bluedogok]

5th St - How much retail is on 5th Street? I have never been there but I thought it was mostly bars, clubs, and restaurants.

Sixth Street is one of the big bar strips, it is one way westbound from I-35 to Mopac. Fifth Street has scattered retail along it clustered from Mopac to just east of Lamar. Whole Foods sits between Fifth and Sixth on Lamar, there is an Office Max in the area to the south with some retail in the ground floor of the new apartment buildings in the area. REI, Antropologie and Book People are in the former Whole Foods center to the north of WF and more retail extending up and down Lamar. The other main retail district downtown is Second Street further east and the Red River District just north of there is another club area. There are also other areas of downtown that have a retail store or two like Congress. You also have a bunch of retail just south of downtown on South Congress (SoCo) and South Lamar (SoLa).

[Kerry]

bluedog - thanks for the info. You mentioned REI, Anthropolgie, Office Max, and Whole Foods. Would you so most of the retail is national chains? Looking around on Google Earth Street View at the areas you mentioned it looks like lots of national chains with a few local place tossed into the mix.

[bluedogok]

There is a mix of national and locals, I just listed the larger ones because I really don't know the names of most of the stores down there. Whole Foods is "local" to Austin as is Whole Earth Provision Company which is a bit north of that area on Lamar. There is also Waterloo Records across from the REI/Book People location which is a local, I would say overall it is about a 70/30 local to national mix. Most of the locals outside of the bigger locals are small boutique type stores, Sixth and Lamar is kind of the Alpha Corner in downtown shopping, hence the reason why some of the nationals have been attracted to it. There are also quite a few smaller national stores like Design Within Reach mixed in with some locals in the Second Street district which was developed a few years later.

The main fact is property owners prefer national chains, they are willing to pay more rent for premium locations or boutique spaces. We have had some locals chased to other areas of town because of rents going up on them with the influx of national boutique stores. Terra Toys moved out of the SoCo strip to North Austin (mid-north Austin now) because their rent was doubled. There has been many articles years ago about this.