Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

[RedDirt717]

Does it really matter what happened in 1993 or whenever?

Yes, I was in the 6th grade when the bomb ripped several friends from this earth. Forgive me for being sensitive about the date. That's like saying you shouldn't remember the date you were born because the point is, you were born.

[kevinpate]

Will it generate $60 million in the first 18 months?

No, but it would be in the general neighborhood of 14 mil over 18 months. I suspect that is more than adequate to cover a position or two or three.

[betts]

You don't consider OKC a place worth visiting, yet you live here. That seems a bit odd. Does that mean you wouldn't consider living in a city worth visiting?

Andy, I didn't move here by choice. If I could wave a magic wand, and I had to be honest I probably would move back to one of the places I came here from, were it that easy. I love the city, but it's much like loving your slightly homely, socially challenged little brother whom you want to teach how to do his hair, dance and wear better clothes. Because I've lived more interesting places with better mass transit, better downtowns, a city park, etc, I can also see the glaring needs we've got.

We may have a glaring need for firemen, but I also think you all are really badly organized and have tremendous waste of personnel. Plus, this election has nothing to do with firemen and policemen.

The fun of living here is watching things change. In cities that already have most of this stuff, it's just fun to live. I like renovating houses, and so probably what has kept me here has been the joy of seeing things get better. As I said elsewhere, I used to live on 24th street, and what's happening on 23rd is exciting. What's happening on Broadway and in Midtown is exciting. Devon's new tower is exciting. The prospect of finally getting mass transit and a downtown park, and all the development I know we'll see makes doing without many of those things for so long all worthwhile.

[betts]

Yes, I was in the 6th grade when the bomb ripped several friends from this earth. Forgive me for being sensitive about the date. That's like saying you shouldn't remember the date you were born because the point is, you were born.

RedDirt, when they arrived at Children's hospital, I took care of two of the five (five I think, we only had two) children who made it out alive. But worse, I had to walk through the waiting room multiple times that day and see the faces of the parents whose children didn't make it out of that daycare alive. Faces silently begging you for hope, for information, terrified you would tell them they didn't need to be there. Those faces are engraved in my memory, but to me, the actual date is insignificant. What happened is important.

So, I didn't mean to sound dismissive of what happened. Personally, I just don't pay attention to dates. Probably an unconscious reaction to the fact that I have a terrible memory for them.

[Spartan]

You don't consider OKC a place worth visiting, yet you live here. That seems a bit odd. Does that mean you wouldn't consider living in a city worth visiting?

Wow..could it be there are people who live in OKC or are from OKC who want it to become better?? Naaah..

[mugofbeer]

The "wow" was because his history is off.

The Tornado he's probably referring to happened in 1999, and the bombing was in 1995.

Anyone that doesn't know those dates, doesn't know enough about our city to even have an opinion.

Hey, I accept the criticizm and should have known the bombing was 1995. I kind of had that in the back of my mind and should have verified it at the time. The bombing is true American history and a real turning point in the history of this city.

[andy157]

Wow..could it be there are people who live in OKC or are from OKC who want it to become better?? Naaah..

Wow..could it be there are people who live in OKC that oppose this MAPS (who by the way were living here long before you were born) who want OKC to become better?? Naah.. Thats because Spartan etal say so.

[andy157]

No, but it would be in the general neighborhood of 14 mil over 18 months. I suspect that is more than adequate to cover a position or two or three.

I know, and your right about the 14 mil. And 14 mil. would be better than nothing. However, the Mayor and the City's offer to use the use tax for staffing was for 18 months, not the 60 million dollars as was insinuated was my point, thats all. I just wanted to make sure we were spouting out the facts.

[Spartan]

Wow..could it be there are people who live in OKC that oppose this MAPS (who by the way were living here long before you were born) who want OKC to become better?? Naah.. Thats because Spartan etal say so.

Well let's reshift this debate to be about what it's really over.

Andy, how do you propose we make OKC better? What can we do to bring more prosperity to OKC?

[andy157]

Well let's reshift this debate to be about what it's really over.

Andy, how do you propose we make OKC better? What can we do to bring more prosperity to OKC?

Spartan it's very simple, and I'm glad you ask. Let us vote for the projects we want for our City, and against those we don't. Majority rules. Then, as soon as they are completed bring us some more.

Instead as it stands now, some of us will be forced to vote NO on certain projects we like and support, to keep us from being forced to vote yes for those we don't.

Obviously there would be those who would vote yes no matter what, and the same could be said about those who would vote no, they would do so, no matter what. It has always been that way, and always will.

The ones I feel most sorry for are those who will sellout, hold their nose, and vote yes for the projects they don't like or support, in order to get those they do. Thats very sad.

I know which group I'm in. How about you, which group are you in?

[Doug Loudenback]

I love the city, but it's much like loving your slightly homely, socially challenged little brother whom you want to teach how to do his hair, dance and wear better clothes. Because I've lived more interesting places with better mass transit, better downtowns, a city park, etc, I can also see the glaring needs we've got.

Quit pickin' on your sweet little brother!

[betts]

Quit pickin' on your sweet little brother!

Actually, I want to help my little brother. He could use a few more dates!

[iron76hd]

Let's get a PUBLIC Debate! Each side can call the other's exaggerations out for what they think they are. Then the FACTS from each side.

What kind of ratings would that get? Every local viewer would watch and get to hear each sides issues. What's wrong with that? Then Let the folks vote.

IF it's so GREAT. Then put the info and FACTS before the people! It's because it only looks good in ONE sided commercials and ads. If the NO campaign had enough money for Commercials and ads. The vote would clearly be 70% NO or better. Lucky for you.

Can someone explain why YOUR YES side won't do that?

[OSUFan]

Spartan it's very simple, and I'm glad you ask. Let us vote for the projects we want for our City, and against those we don't. Majority rules. Then, as soon as they are completed bring us some more.

Instead as it stands now, some of us will be forced to vote NO on certain projects we like and support, to keep us from being forced to vote yes for those we don't.

Obviously there would be those who would vote yes no matter what, and the same could be said about those who would vote no, they would do so, no matter what. It has always been that way, and always will.

The ones I feel most sorry for are those who will sellout, hold their nose, and vote yes for the projects they don't like or support, in order to get those they do. Thats very sad.

I know which group I'm in. How about you, which group are you in?

I like the fact they are all together. It is very hard for any single project to get 50% of the vote. I've said this before but if the original MAPS was voted on by project what would we have ended up with? We surely wouldn't have a Ford Center, Oklahoma River or Canal.

Also, what about MAPS for Kids, should each school stand on their own vote? Of course, MAPS has always been about the total sum of the package.

[OSUFan]

Let's get a PUBLIC Debate! Each side can call the other's exaggerations out for what they think they are. Then the FACTS from each side.

What kind of ratings would that get? Every local viewer would watch and get to hear each sides issues. What's wrong with that? Then Let the folks vote.

IF it's so GREAT. Then put the info and FACTS before the people! It's because it only looks good in ONE sided commercials and ads. If the NO campaign had enough money for Commercials and ads. The vote would clearly be 70% NO or better. Lucky for you.

Can someone explain why YOUR YES side won't do that?

Who would the No side send out to debate? Porter Davis, the guy that moved to the mountains for Y2K or Steve Hunt? The FOP leader hasn't exactly been the most articulate guy either.

[Midtowner]

Let's get a PUBLIC Debate! Each side can call the other's exaggerations out for what they think they are. Then the FACTS from each side.

What kind of ratings would that get? Every local viewer would watch and get to hear each sides issues. What's wrong with that? Then Let the folks vote.

IF it's so GREAT. Then put the info and FACTS before the people! It's because it only looks good in ONE sided commercials and ads. If the NO campaign had enough money for Commercials and ads. The vote would clearly be 70% NO or better. Lucky for you.

Can someone explain why YOUR YES side won't do that?

First, the debate is public. Both sides have been able to articulate their messages on the internet and in the media. What purpose would a Lincoln-Douglas style debate actually serve? Both sides have their talking points and at the root of those talking points are fundamental disagreements which simply can't be worked out.

Second, and more cynically, the pro-MAPS side has a much larger war chest. The local media has given them decidedly one-sided support. They're having no problems getting their message out. The anti-MAPS folks have about half the cash, have not been successful at all in fundraising and absent a letter to the editor in the Gazette (which was buttressed by a pro-MAPS letter by Wayne Coyne on one side and a MAPS is awesome article on the other), the anti-MAPS message is not being given space, ink or time. Why on Earth would the pro-MAPS folks actually assist their opponents in communicating to the public when the media have made said communication darn near impossible.

I'm all for public debate, but what you'd have on both sides here is simply a recital of stale talking points with not a lot of actual discussion and interaction. It'd probably end up being a waste of time for both sides if one thought that it had ideas which could actually prevail.

[andy157]

I like the fact they are all together. It is very hard for any single project to get 50% of the vote. I've said this before but if the original MAPS was voted on by project what would we have ended up with? We surely wouldn't have a Ford Center, Oklahoma River or Canal.

Also, what about MAPS for Kids, should each school stand on their own vote? Of course, MAPS has always been about the total sum of the package.

OSUFan, if a single project can't muster up 50% plus 1 that would tell me that it probably got what it deserved. With all due respect how can you, me, or anyone else stand here 16 years after the fact and speculate which of the MAPS 1 projects would have passed or failed?

[andy157]

Who would the No side send out to debate? Porter Davis, the guy that moved to the mountains for Y2K or Steve Hunt? The FOP leader hasn't exactly been the most articulate guy either.

If the NO side doesn't have a worthy opponent to send to a debate then what are the yes folks waiting on? I would think the lion would love the chance to slaughter a lamb.

[soonerguru]

OSUFan, if a single project can't muster up 50% plus 1 that would tell me that it probably got what it deserved. With all due respect how can you, me, or anyone else stand here 16 years after the fact and speculate which of the MAPS 1 projects would have passed or failed?

Andy, you're whistling past the graveyard. In the future, a public-safety tax (with raises for cops and firemen and additional personnel) may have to be bundled with something more popular for passage.

Frankly, I would be surprised if the voters would favor such a pay raise right now, given the fact that virtually all other public and private sector workers are looking at pay cuts, furloughs and understaffing -- regardless of where they work.

I would love to see this polled. I bet those of you on your scorched-earth mission to hold all of the citizens of OKC hostage for your own employment complaints would probably be surprised, and dispirited, by the results.

[Spartan]

Spartan it's very simple, and I'm glad you ask. Let us vote for the projects we want for our City, and against those we don't. Majority rules. Then, as soon as they are completed bring us some more.

Instead as it stands now, some of us will be forced to vote NO on certain projects we like and support, to keep us from being forced to vote yes for those we don't.

Obviously there would be those who would vote yes no matter what, and the same could be said about those who would vote no, they would do so, no matter what. It has always been that way, and always will.

The ones I feel most sorry for are those who will sellout, hold their nose, and vote yes for the projects they don't like or support, in order to get those they do. Thats very sad.

I know which group I'm in. How about you, which group are you in?

Alright, fair enough Andy. I agree that the all-or-nothing nature of MAPS is a bit consternating for all of us. Here's the reality though: If it's not all-or-nothing, then special interest groups behind each project will nitpick until the point that NO special projects happen. That's why MAPS is an altogether proposition, because it builds consensus, instead of encouraging jockeying.

Here's an example: I know that if it were an up or down vote on each item, I would vote down EVERYTHING except the downtown streetcar, just in order to make sure that the streetcar gets more votes than other items. The reality though is that we CAN afford to do all of the above, so that's what we should do. We should come together and move forward as a city altogether (holding hands real cute). Streetcar proponents, convention center hawks, fairgrounds advocates, downtown park enthusiasts -- all of us, should get our cake, then get to eat it too.

MAPS 1 also had items that I didn't like. I wouldn't have wanted to pay for the crappy downtown trolleys (that was money wasted) or the Fairground improvements. I just don't see the value in the millions and millions and millions of dollars we keep flushing down the toilet by investing in the Fairgrounds all the damn time, with MAPS, with a dedicated hotel/motel tax, with MAPS 3, and so on.. lord knows it's not bringing anything new to the table, but oh well.

Also at first I thought that the senior centers were a horrible idea and another lame money waste. In hindsight, and now that I've gotten to think it over some more, it's a great project. Seniors deserve something just for them, especially since the elderly population is about to balloon, and this is really more of a public health initiative designed to help people get active. I think that it's really the equivalent of a downtown park or streetcar system for elderly people: the senior centers will give seniors the opportunity to live a more active lifestyle, just as the downtown initiatives give the rest of us a shot at a more active lifestyle, and you can't put a price tag on that.

[OSUFan]

Andy, I think it is common knowledge that many if not most of the projects from the original MAPS were not very popular individually. If I speaking out of line stop me. It is the whole of package that was popular (at least over 50% popular).

[flintysooner]

When I think about the projects it seems to me that the park is a hard sell by itself but if included with a transit system and a convention center makes sense. Likewise I feel the same way about a transit system with the current downtown area and no park and current convention center. I do think we should have a new convention center but probably wouldn't support it without the park and the transit system.

I could imagine limiting MAPS 3 to just those projects. But I can understand the value of the other projects. I am very doubtful they could stand on their own though. So I have little trouble seeing them as part of this package. I do view all of these things as working together for the benefit of the entire community that makes up Oklahoma City.

[RedDirt717]

If each individual project were voted on separately none of the projects would pass.

The all or nothing makes sense, because most of the projects are going to compliment each other. The street car is going to tie it all together and put a bow on top, and I'm actually against the street car. But I understand the necessity of it with all the other projects going up.

[andy157]

Andy, you're whistling past the graveyard. In the future, a public-safety tax (with raises for cops and firemen and additional personnel) may have to be bundled with something more popular for passage.

Frankly, I would be surprised if the voters would favor such a pay raise right now, given the fact that virtually all other public and private sector workers are looking at pay cuts, furloughs and understaffing -- regardless of where they work.

I would love to see this polled. I bet those of you on your scorched-earth mission to hold all of the citizens of OKC hostage for your own employment complaints would probably be surprised, and dispirited, by the results.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see a retaliation effort by a group of fine Citizens.

[andy157]

If each individual project were voted on separately none of the projects would pass.

The all or nothing makes sense, because most of the projects are going to compliment each other. The street car is going to tie it all together and put a bow on top, and I'm actually against the street car. But I understand the necessity of it with all the other projects going up.

None, not a one of them would pass, do you have a crystal ball?